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Acts 4:13. A death-blow to Apostolicity ?

This is probably a provocative subject considering most of us are conservatives, some of us even more than others.

I have held off this subject, but I feel now is a proper time.

As we all know, in the current set of books in the New Testament / Brit Hadashah there exists 5 Johannine books, and 2 Petrine books. These have been traditionally attributed strictly to the Apostle John (son of Zebidee) and to the Apostle Peter. Granting the Semitic position (Hebrew & Aramaic) but also granting the majority position (Koine Greek) we run into an issue immediately.

First and foremost, the only books of these seven that actually claim they are by an Apostle, are the two ascribed to Peter. None of John's books claim to be by the Apostle himself (the Gospel of John is the only book one can make an argument for that it does claim to be by the Apostle). Contrary to popular belief, Revelation as we have it, only claims to be a revelation to a man named John, a common name amongst Hebrews.

Now onto Scripture and the evidence:
The Acts of the Apostles, by Luke represents the earliest historical record amongst believers.

In Acts 4:13 we have a statement that raises many problems:
Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began
to recognize them as having been with Jesus.


Now if they were uneducated, untrained Hebrew/Aramaic speaking layman/peasants, how could they have an ability to write in Hebrew or Aramaic? Or even worse, how could they have written in such magnificent Greek? And why do their books contain Greek Philosophic words? We even have a mention of Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4.

I am wondering what your opinions are on this, certainly it's not impossible they learned to write, but they are unlikely to have produced Epistles, a genre principally written in Greek.

As a final note, there is at least another 5 writings ascribed to Peter, such as the Apocalypse of Peter or the Preaching of Peter. Also the Gospel of Peter.

Thank you for reading.

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I think the evidence is overwhelming that John, 1st, 2nd and 3rd John and Revelation were all written by the same Yochanan. The unique terminology makes this clear. Yochanan and Revelation both strongly picture Messiah as "The Lamb" (almost unique, only Kefa does this as well), both call him "The Word" (unique) and both refer to "Living Waters". Interestingly the Greek versions use different Greek words for "Lamb" and different Greek phrases for "Living Waters", however the Aramaic terms are the same. This points to the fact that the Greek translators were different but the Aramaic/Hebrew originals were both by the same Yochanan. Of course there are also many similarities between the Gospel of Yochanan and the three letters of Yochanan.

BTW the "Revelation is by a different Yochanan" theory of many liberal scholars has been based on the fact that the Greek vocabulary and style is so different. I nfact the Greek of Revelation is grammatically amongst the worst Greek ever written anywhere!.

Also throughout history Jews have always had a very high literacy rate even among the common folk, reading the Torah in synagogue was a ritual all participated in. This is why Jews later, wen forbidden to own property often made financial livings, because they could keep books.

BTW the mention of "Tartarus" in the Aramaic is to TACHTI the lowest parts of SHEOL where the Neffilim were kept. This was the later source for the Tartarus myth of the Greeks whose Titans paralleled the Nefillim.
Uneducated/untrained does not necessarily denote an inability to read/write, especially in their native tongue.
Indeed, so I take it you would view the verse I posted above, as simply showing the disciples were common folk? Because the majority of skeptics would make the claim that Luke basically calls them illiterate here.

Indeed, the Greeks did steal from us. Especially in later centuries referring to Zeus as the "Creator of the Universe", something the Romans and Egyptians never said of their gods.

Based on the documents we have, you would assert that all seven of these were originally in Hebrew/Aramaic?
Were these books among the library at Caesarea, I remember reading once in the Church Fathers where it was stated there was Hebrew manuscripts in the library at Caesarea.

James Trimm said:
I think the evidence is overwhelming that John, 1st, 2nd and 3rd John and Revelation were all written by the same Yochanan. The unique terminology makes this clear. Yochanan and Revelation both strongly picture Messiah as "The Lamb" (almost unique, only Kefa does this as well), both call him "The Word" (unique) and both refer to "Living Waters". Interestingly the Greek versions use different Greek words for "Lamb" and different Greek phrases for "Living Waters", however the Aramaic terms are the same. This points to the fact that the Greek translators were different but the Aramaic/Hebrew originals were both by the same Yochanan. Of course there are also many similarities between the Gospel of Yochanan and the three letters of Yochanan.

BTW the "Revelation is by a different Yochanan" theory of many liberal scholars has been based on the fact that the Greek vocabulary and style is so different. I nfact the Greek of Revelation is grammatically amongst the worst Greek ever written anywhere!.

Also throughout history Jews have always had a very high literacy rate even among the common folk, reading the Torah in synagogue was a ritual all participated in. This is why Jews later, wen forbidden to own property often made financial livings, because they could keep books.

BTW the mention of "Tartarus" in the Aramaic is to TACHTI the lowest parts of SHEOL where the Neffilim were kept. This was the later source for the Tartarus myth of the Greeks whose Titans paralleled the Nefillim.
I agree. Do keep in mind Paul(Saul) trained under Gamaliel.

about 15% of the Roman Empire was literate, mostly in the Eastern parts (Egypt/Judea/Syria).
Of those most were literate in two languages.

I'm not sure why you've personalized it but needless to say, I agree regarding Yochanan being the author of the 5 books. I would take the position that John wrote the Gospel and 1 John in Greek, 2-3 John and Revelation in Hebrew(or Aramaic), and that this is why it took so long for these books to get accepted into the Scriptures.

In regards to 1-2 Peter, certainly Peter wrote them, however I'm still quite convinced by them being in Greek originally.

Not sure why you are so confident in 3 Corinthians being anything more than a second century orthodox forgery written against the docetics.

EOTC to Paul
1. We must not appeal to the prophets
2. God is not Almighty
3. There is no resurrection of the flesh
4. Creation is not God's work
5. The Lord did not come in the flesh
6. The Lord was not born of Mary
7. The world is not of God but the Angels

This is second century, not first. Paul only wrote against the proto-Gnostics and those that denied bodily resurrection. This can't logically be dated any earlier than 120AD.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
the apostles never went to Rabbi school. usually the rabbi's students had to undergo extensive training/education before they became a student of a rabbi. The apostles however did not receive this extensive education and went straight to being the student of a rabbi. you're assuming that most people didn't read and write back then, but i'm not sure where you learned this from. that was more middle ages when people didn't really read if I remember correctly. further, even if most didn't write, that's not that big a deal. You have to remember that many writers actually had personal scribes write for them. And then, all you need is two or three people at every church congregation that can read so that they can read to the people of the congregation.

Now, every single letter of Paul claims to be written by Paul. We also have 2 Thessalonians 3:17-18 "17 The salutation of Paul with my own hand, which is a sign in every epistle; so I write.
18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Romans"1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

1 Corinthians "1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. 24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen."

2 Corinthians "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen."

3 Corinthians "1 Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ, to the brothers in Corinth, greeting!; 40 May peace, grace and love be with you. Amen."

1 Thessalonians "1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

2 Thesalonians "1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

1 Timothy "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.;21 Grace be with you. Amen. "

2 Timothy "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ[a] by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

2 To Timothy, a beloved son:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.;
22 The Lord Jesus Christ[h] be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen."

Titus "1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ[a] our Savior.15 All who are with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith.
Grace be with you all. Amen."

Philemon " 1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother,

To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, 2 to the beloved[a] Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

Galatians " 1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
;18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

Ephesians "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 24 Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."

Philippians "1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops[a] and deacons:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.[c] Amen. "

Colossians "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.; 18 This salutation by my own hand—Paul. Remember my chains. Grace be with you. Amen."

Laodiceans "1. Paul an Apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, to the brethren which are at Laodicea.
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.; 18. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."

The only letter that people think is written by Paul that doesn't say written by Paul and include a personal salutation at the end and often at the beginning is Hebrews (which is huge evidence against Pauline authorship.

The other letters that were written by Paul that do not include salutation are his personal letters to Seneca.

The five books ascribed with John were either written all by John the Apostle, or some by John the Apostle and some by John the Elder. No one else wrote those books.
Paul wrote against all the heresies effecting his churches. This was never brought up once.

Also, it is a proven fact that the docetics who believed as I stated above from EOTC only came into existence in the early second to the mid second century. It is IMPOSSIBLE to put them any earlier. Also, denial of the OT God is a characteristic of mid second century Gnosticism.

Anyone who honestly thinks this is by Paul, is lying to themselves.

No offense.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
you are basing your dating of 3 Corinthians on the idea that the heresies of the 2nd century originated in the 2nd century. you have no way of knowing this, and i think it is clear that the heresies had a grounding in the 1st century long before.
You betray yourself, and contradict yourself when you say this.
Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles. His surviving letters are all written to places where ONLY Greek was spoken, no other languages. He wrote to Gentile-majority places, and as evident from the letters. Philemon/Timothy/Titus were Greek-only people. Not only that, Paul was a Hebrew in exile, he grew up in the Greek-speaking Tarsus (of Cicilia). He would have had formal education both in Greek and then under Gamaliel.

There is no purpose in saying there was one Jew or two Jews in the audience who could translate Paul's Hebrew.
You dishonor Paul when you claim he wrote in anything but excellent Greek.

As a final note, we have no manuscripts demonstrating Paul wrote in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
all of Paul's writings were in Aramaic/Hebrew. And I believe Luke was saying that the apostles were not formally educated or trained. But they were most certainly informally trained.
117AD actually.

Even if you could demonstrate him speaking about doceticism, the 7 points of EOTC are far beyond that. There is specifically second-century views.

Even in the best possible scenario, you can't place EOTC+3Cor any earlier than 120AD.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
actually, Ignatius wrote against the docetics, and Ignatius died no later than 108 AD. From the context of Ignatius' letters, it did not seem to be a recent development. It seemed to be a major heresy, deeply entrenched.
We have Aramaic from the middle ages, and we have Greek of Paul's letters as early as 200AD. There is NO grounds to say Paul wrote in anything but Greek.

Even worse for you is that Paul probably did not know Aramaic. The Lord spoke to him in Hebrew, he speaks to the people in Hebrew, and he studied under Gamaliel (which would have all been in Hebrew).

That is true, but Titus lived on Crete, and Timothy was also in a Greek-only area. Philemon was from western Asia Minor. There is no possibility they knew Hebrew or Aramaic. To say they knew Hebrew is like saying they knew Latin. Which is just as ridiculous and a-historical.

The people who would be able to read texts were wealthy Greeks. No one else.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
what do you mean? we have manuscripts in aramaic. We have no manuscripts likewise demonstrating he wrote in Greek.

The people of their day new many languages. It is not beyond the scope of reason to assume that Hebrew and Greek were known well by many people, even Gentiles. Further, it is not necessary for any of the congregations to have been able to read greek or hebrew. Just two or three people are needed in order to read it to the congregations.
Nope. It's targeted at the completed stage. Not the beginning.

Accepting a forgery and putting it in Paul's hands is idolatry.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I completely disagree, but it will pretty much not change your mind. You seem to think that heresies just spring up out of nowhere. The reality is, there is a gradual development towards it. 3 Corinthians is targeted towards the beginning stages of those heresies.
Yeah I am sorry that ALL of scholarship has concluded this is a forgery.

I will not worship the Apostle Paul as you clearly loved to do. That's not closed-mindedness, it's Monotheism.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
i don't accept your scholars that are biased against the writings. if you have already come to the conclusion that the writing is not authentic, then it can't be authentic, because you refuse to be open minded to consider that possibility.
I'm not sure of any scholarship that "rejects" Enoch. Certainly they all reject Enoch as its author, but the text itself is usually placed around 300BC.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
all scholarship has also rejected Enoch, which is clearly due to their bias that it couldn't possibly be Scripture.
Ok then. lie to yourself. But do not claim to be a follower of truth.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I do not worship the Apostle Paul. I value his writings, and no scholars are going to tell me that something Paul wrote he didn't write.

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