Nazarene Space

Greetings,

 

I have been thinking about the concept of life after death. The scriptures are pretty clear the one day all dead will rise, but it is not as clear concerning the state of the dead prior to the ressurection. Some say that those who are saved go directly to heaven to be with the Lord, but the unsaved go to hell to be tormented. Others say that we are in a state of sleep, that is unconcious, knowing nothing, awaiting the ressurection. The scriptures seem to support both theories, thus, seemingly contradicting itself. For example, in Ecclesiastes Ch. 9 we read that "the dead know not any thing", that they can niether "love", nor "hate", nor "envy," and that "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave," Likewise, in Psalm 146:4 it says that when someone dies, "in that very day his thoughts perish." Thus, these verses seem to imply that the dead are unconcious. However, there are other verses that teach to the contrary. For example, Luke 16:19-31 implies that the dead are very much concious, either being tormented or resting in peace in a place called Abraham's bosom. In fact, it shows that the dead are very much concerned about their family members' fate.

 

I personally lean towards the dead being in a state of sleep, knowing nothing. But what do I do with verses such as Luke 16:19-31? What are your thoughts in this subject. Whatever position you take, how do you deal with those verses that seem to teach to the contrary? Thanks.

 

In Messiah,

Rudy.

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I agree with you Rudy.

As for parables, they're just parables.
People like to say "you can't use Ecclesiastes and Psalms to establish doctrines about soul sleep, because they're just poetic books" which is hypocritical, since the only part of the entire Bible that seemingly implies anything against soul sleep is a parable, a most poetic literary device.

Satan whispered to Eve, saying "you shall NOT surely die," and to this day most of mankind believe the lie.
Most people don't really believe in death, but in man living on in a post-mortal state identical to the state of the Nephilim spirits (demons), which shows the dark origin of this belief.

Thanks for the reply Solomon. I agree that the passage in Luke is a parable, but certainly there are those that would argue that it is not a parable. Still, I've heard the argument that even if it is a parable, Yeshua would not use a concept like Abraham's bosom in his teaching if it was false. They argue that if the concept of Abraham's bosom was false, he would taught against it, not use it. And to a certain extent I believe this is a valid argument. That's why I'm still a little confused on this subject.


Solomon Avar said:

I agree with you Rudy.

As for parables, they're just parables.
People like to say "you can't use Ecclesiastes and Psalms to establish doctrines about soul sleep, because they're just poetic books" which is hypocritical, since the only part of the entire Bible that seemingly implies anything against soul sleep is a parable, a most poetic literary device.

Satan whispered to Eve, saying "you shall NOT surely die," and to this day most of mankind believe the lie.
Most people don't really believe in death, but in man living on in a post-mortal state identical to the state of the Nephilim spirits (demons), which shows the dark origin of this belief.

A study on the parable of "Lazarus and the Rich Man," perhaps it might be edifying:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Rev 6:9  And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the beings of those having been slain for the Word of Elohim and for the witness which they held,
Rev 6:10  and they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Master, set-apart and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11  And there was given to each one a white robe, and they were told that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brothers, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Sounds plausible to me. Granted it's futuristic...

I've rectified the verses, most likely written by Qoheleth, realizing he is simply stating how life can appear to men in their lost state without a hope in the Eternal,  ....not because I feel it's "poetic" or a "parable".  (...not aware of anything in Psalms that promotes "soul sleep")

Ecc 1:13  And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that has been done under the heavens; this evil task Elohim has given to the sons of man, to be humbled by it.
Ecc 1:14  I have seen all the works that are done under the sun. And see, all was futile and feeding on wind.

The Bible doesn't need to be rectified.

As for those who are seeking to learn, instead of rectifying the Bible and imposing their views upon it, knowledge may be found:

Are the dead conscious?
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=the-Dead

What is death?
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Death

Explanations dealing specifically with the parable of Lazarus may be found in the link I offered in my previous post in this thread. Then again those eager to remain in their childhood delusions will always find a rationale to not expose themselves to knowledge and challenging arguments.

mikha El said:

Rev 6:9  And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the beings of those having been slain for the Word of Elohim and for the witness which they held,
Rev 6:10  and they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Master, set-apart and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11  And there was given to each one a white robe, and they were told that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brothers, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Sounds plausible to me. Granted it's futuristic...

I've rectified the verses, most likely written by Qoheleth, realizing he is simply stating how life can appear to men in their lost state without a hope in the Eternal,  ....not because I feel it's "poetic" or a "parable".  (...not aware of anything in Psalms that promotes "soul sleep")

Ecc 1:13  And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that has been done under the heavens; this evil task Elohim has given to the sons of man, to be humbled by it.
Ecc 1:14  I have seen all the works that are done under the sun. And see, all was futile and feeding on wind.

The author you point to clearly feels he has rectified the issue of call it soul or spirit sleep. You like a lost lamb have swallowed it hook, line and sinker yet cannot explain the "dead" speaking in Revelation? 

One other thing. The Greek primest writings you cling too seem a bit biased against the true identity of Yahudah ...especially when making comments like this...

Quote Bryan:

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!


I wont go so so far as to saying he sound antisemitic, I will say he is a tad misguided. Enough where I don't desire to read anything else he has to say. Perhaps you will be better off sticking to your own words if you wish to sway me.  

   

Hi Rudy,

Here's a scholarly thesis (free online) that shows well IMO that ideas of unconcious dead and no traditional hell are not sectarian novelties but objective truths that fit the jewish sources/development:

 

http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/3095/

 

Papaioannou, Kim Gary (2004) Places of punishment in the synoptic gospels. Doctoral thesis, Durham University.

 
(It also deals with the Lazarus parable, although less convincingly IMO.)

You're the one who (as I understand) is claiming Jews are currently being tortured by God, IN THE SIGHT OF ABRAHAM, which in turn means Abraham is being tortured by having to watch these hellish horrors. That sounds a tad bit more antisemitic than preaching and proving the salvation of all Israel, like Bryan does. Now, I know you're not an antisemite, I'm just trying to show you how vain the accusation is, especially in light of this factoid. If I really hated Jews, guess what, I'd go around calling myself a Jew and appealing to antisemitism everytime someone disagreed with me on something. Most people would be polite enough to not challenge it perhaps, but would harbor some bitterness that might turn them against Jews later.

Also, I don't see how you can reconcile the 5th seal symbolic vision with the Parable of Lazarus, without making either or both symbolical. In one case, the saintly dead are in the bosom of Abraham, with a nice view to their relatives being tortured in a Catholic hell-world not far from them, and in the other case, they're all under a gigantic altar in heaven I guess. (Try visualizing it...) You have to abandon one of them as regards literal interp. So then you have to justify abandoning one to symbolization and keeping the other literal. So, is the 5th seal going to be the literal one, or the parable of Lazarus ?

mikha El said:

One other thing. The Greek primest writings you cling too seem a bit biased against the true identity of Yahudah ...especially when making comments like this...

Quote Bryan:

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!


I wont go so so far as to saying he sound antisemitic, I will say he is a tad misguided. Enough where I don't desire to read anything else he has to say. Perhaps you will be better off sticking to your own words if you wish to sway me.  

   

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