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Debate: Trimm vs. Crawford - Resolved: Is Yeshua the Messiah?

 

Charleyne,

 

I accept your challenge.

 

Trimm vs. Crawford

 

Be it resolved:

Yeshua was the Messiah

 

 

Charlayne Crawford said:

 

A close study of torah and time to clear your head of all preconceived notions will show that NT and torah DO NOT line up at all in any way shape or form.  It is all contrived and forced puzzle pieces if anything- but not reality.




 

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Yeshua MUST be Messiah (regardless of whether or not any other "Messianic Prophecies" are validly speaking of Yeshua)

Isaiah 29 ties the apostasy of Judah to a sealed book (29:10-12) but
with the revealing of that sealed book comes an enlightenment and
restoration (29:18).

Now it is very important to realize that according to Isaiah 29 our
people (Judah) are in a state of general blindness/slumber until the
sealed book is revealed (29:10-14, 18).

Now Isaiah does not tell us what the book is or when it is revealed.
However that information is given elswhere in the Tanak. Daniel writes
of his own book:

But you, O Daniel, shut up the words,
and seal the book to the time of the end...

...Go your way Daniel: for the words are closed up
and sealed till the time of the end.
(Dan. 12:4, 10)


So this "sealed book" would seem to be at least in part, the Book of
Daniel and it seems to be come unsealed in the last days. Remember
Daniel wrote after the days of Isaiah so Daniel knew about the sealed
book of Is. 29:10-12, 18 when he wrote Dan. 12:4, 10.

So lets bring together Is. 29:10-14, 18 with Daniel 12:4, 10. What do
we learn from these two sections of the Tanak taken together? We learn
that our people Judah are in an apostasy until some information hidden
in the
Book of Daniel (and perhaps some other books) is revealed in the last
days and the revealing of that information opens their eyes.

This means that mainline Judaism is in apostasy but in the last days
there is a restoration of Judah when certain hidden (sealed)
information in Daniel is revealed.

So what information is sealed in Daniel? The restoration of our people
is usually tied to Messiah... could this hidden information in Daniel
relate to the identity of Messiah?

Interesting the Talmud states:

The Targum of the Prophets was composed by Jonathon
ben Uzziel under the guidance of Haggai, Zechariah and
Malachi... and a Bat Kol (voice from heaven) came forth
and exclaimed, "Who is this that has revealed My secrets
to mankind?"... He further sought to reveal by a Targum
the inner meaning of the Ketuvim, but a bat kol went forth
and said, "Enough!". What was the reason?-- Because the
date of the Messiah is foretold in it.
(Babylonian Talmud; b.Megillah 3a)

Now the only prophetic book of the Ketuvim is Daniel and this is also a
book of the Ketuvim for which no Targum was evr made. The following
quote from Josephus also supports the theory that Daniel is the book in
question:

We believe that Daniel conversed with God; for he did not
only prophecy of future events, as did the other prophets,
but also determined the time of their accomplishment.
(Josephus; Antiquities 10:11:7)

Now the Qumran community found just this information (the time of the Messiah) in the Book of Daniel:

The visitation is the Day of Salvation that He has decreed
through Isaiah the prophet concerning all the captives,
inasmuch as Scripture says, "How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of the messenger who announces peace,
who brings good news, who announces salvation,
who says to Zion "Your ELOHIM reigns"." (Isa. 52;7)
This scriptures interpretation : "the mountains" are the prophets,
they who were sent to proclaim God`s truth and to prophesy
to all Israel. "The messengers" is the Anointed of the spirit,
of whom Daniel spoke; "After the sixty-two weeks,
a Messiah shall be cut off" (Dan. 9;26)
(From 11Q13)

So now we have learned that there is good reason to believe that the
sealed information in the Book of Daniel which opens the eyes of Judah
when it is revealed in the last days is the time of Messiah sealed up
in Daniel 9:24-27.

Now lets recap:

Anyone can see from Is. 29 that the apostasy of Judah ends with the revealing of a sealed book.

Anyone can see from Daniel 12 that this sealed book is (at least in part) the Book of Daniel.

Anyone can see that the information sealed up in Daniel is (at least in part) the time of Messiah.

Anyone can see that this information is to be found in Daniel 9.

Now here is Daniel 9 unsealed:

DAN 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed
of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

DAN 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the
number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the
prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of
Jerusalem.

Daniel has been doing some Tanak study. He has been reading Jer. 25:11-12; 29:10. He has read about the 70 year exile.

The reason for a 70 year captivity had been that YHWH was punishing us
for having forsaken the Torah. He punished us with the curses of Deut
28-29 and Lev. 26 as the Torah had warned us. The key issue here was
that of the violation of the Sabbath of the Land (Ex. 21:2; 23:11; Lev.
25:2, 20; 26:2, 34; Deut. 15:1)

According to the Torah, if we as a people did not keep the sabbath of
the land every seven years we would be cursed (Lev. 26 esp. verse 34)

DAN 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

DAN 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and
said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and
mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

DAN 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done
wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and
from thy judgments:

DAN 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which
spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to
all the people of the land.

DAN 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us
confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that
are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them,
because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

DAN 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our
princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

DAN 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

DAN 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk
in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

DAN 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing,
that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon
us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of
God, because we have sinned against him.

DAN 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us,
and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great
evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done
upon Jerusalem.

DAN 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come
upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we
might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

DAN 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it
upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he
doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

DAN 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth
out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee
renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

DAN 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee,
let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem,
thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our
fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are
about us.

DAN 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and
his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that
is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

DAN 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and
behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for
we do not present our supplications before thee for our
righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

DAN 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer
not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are
called by thy name.

Daniel is very concerned. It has been 70 years and he wants to go home!
He is a very old man by now. But he has worried because he knows his
Torah. He knows that the Torah warns that if Israel still does not
repent after the curse is inacted that Israel will have the punishment
multiplied by seven (Lev. 26:18) Daniel is hoping that YHWH will not be
enacting the next level punishment. For that would mean 70 * 7 or
another 490 years!


DAN 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin
and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before
the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

DAN 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel,
whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly
swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

DAN 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

DAN 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came
forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved:
therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

DAN 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to
make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy.

Daniel learns that there will indeed be at least another 490 years of
curses for Israel. The "weeks" here are not seven DAYS but seven YEARS.
In fact the Hebrew word here actually just means "seven [somethings]"

DAN 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of
the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

7 "weeks" here would be 49 years (a Jubilee cycle) plus theeescore and two weeks (3*20+2=62) is 69 "weeks" or 483 years.

But remember we are not counting years here but actual sabbath year
cycles which are specific seven year blocks. In other words this is
actually a count of how many sabbath year cycle blocks fall between
these two points.

Our starting point is "the going forth of the commandment to restore
and to build Jerusalem" which is Ezra 7:11-16 and gives us a start date
of 457 BCE. Between that date and the Messiah 69 sabbath year cycle
blocks would fall.


DAN 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a
flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Messiah is cut off after ther 62 "weeks" which follow the 7 weeks. This
elaboration allows us to see that the division of these two blocks (the
7 weeks and the 62 weeks) was to show that after the 7 weeks "the
street shall be built again, and the wall" but the Messiah would not
come until after the 62 week block following that.

The Messiah would be "cut off" at that time. This is an idiom meaning
that he would be executed. He would not be executed for himself, but
for others. Then the people of a prince destroy Jerusalem after that
time.

DAN 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation
to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate.

Remember there were 490 years or 70 "weeks" but we have so far covered only 483 (or 69 "weeks").

This is because the big test of our trust in YHWH is the Sabbath of the
land. This is where Israel SHOWS our trust in YHWH by trusting him to
provide. The curse would not end until we reinstitute the sabbath of
the land (2Chr. 36:21).

So YHWH in his infinite mercy would send the Messiah seven years BEFORE
the 490 years would end to call us to repent and return to Torah in
time to reinstitute the sabbath of the land BEFORE the 490 years are
over. (See my paper THE KINGDOM OFFER)

The curse will not end until we as a people repent and show that by
reinstituting the sabbath of the land. When we do that we will finally
kick off the last seven years of the curse we have lived with all of
this time.

There is so much to learn from this chapter. Including the nature of
the Kingdom offer and the layout of the last seven years. But most
importantly is the time that the Messiah would come and be "cut off".

Now if our start point is 457 BCE and 69 "weeks" must fall between this
point and the death of Messiah, then Messiah would have to be executed
sometime in a window from 26 C.E. to 40 C.E. (depending on how the
sabbath year cycles fall.

So if Yeshua was NOT the Messiah that would be "cut off, but not for himself" during that window... then who was?

Messaih would be executed in a window of time somewhere between 26 and
44 C.E.. And he would arive in accordance to the completion of a series
of sabbath-year-cycles and jubilee cycles. Now these cycles indicate
"the year of release". So lets look for more clues about this Messiah
who is cut off at such a time.

Lets look at Isaiah 60:22-61:2

60:22 A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I YHWH will hasten it in its time.

"A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong
nation:" is the Kingdom represented by a stone in Dan. 2:34-35, 45
which "became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" (Dan. 3:35).

"I YHWH will hasten it in its time." refers to the "Kingdom offer"

61:1 The Spirit of Adonai YHWH is upon me;
because YHWH has anointed me to proclaim
good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to
bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty
to the captives, and the opening of the prison
to them that are bound.

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YHWH,
and the day of vengeance of our ELOHIM,
to comfrort all who mourn;

Here we have an anointed one, a "Messiah" who comes in accordance with
the jubilee and seven year cycles to proclaim liberty to captives. It
is also significant as we will soon find that he makes this
proclomation to "Zion" (Is. 61:3). This Messiah comes to REDEEM.

Lets see if Isaiah speaks any more about this figure who makes a
proclomation of redemption to Zion. In Is. 52:7 we also read about a
figure who also proclaims good tidings to Zion. This proclomation
appears in Is. 53 and also involves one who comes to redeem (Is.
53:4-5, 11-12) and is cut off, but not for himself (53:8; 53:4-5,
11-12) just like the figure in Daniel. The figure must be the Messiah
of Daniel 9 and Is. 61.

I wonder how this Messiah dies? Perhaps the prophets give me some clue.
Zechariah writes:

12:10 ...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...

According to both the Talmud (b.Sukkot 52a) and the Targum, this
"pierced one" is the Messiah. Now Zechariah 12:10 takes place at the
coming of Messiah as king, but they notice that he was the same one
whom they had "pierced" or "thrust through". Lets read on and see if
Zechariah gives us any clues as to who this is and just how he was
pierced. As we read further Zech 12:10-14 speaks of the people mourning
over having pierced this guy. Zech 13: 1-4 takes place at the intiation
of the Messianic age. The Messiah is judging idolaters and false
prophets. No wonder they are now mourning over this pierced one! Then
in verses 5-6 we get a detailed scene of one of these judgements:

5 And he shall say, "I am no prophet, I am a husbandman;
for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth."
6 And he [the defendant] shall say to him [Messiah],
"What are these wounds in your hands?"

Then he [the Messiah] shall answer: "Those with which
I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Zech 13:6 points us back to 12:10 regarding how they mourn when they see he is the pierced one.

So now we have a Messiah who would be "cut off" sometime between 26 and
44 C.E. not for himself but to redeem others. This execution would
involve having his hands pierced.

Now lets look at Zech. 13:2. Notice that this guy will "cut off the
names of the idols out of the land" (13:2). Sounds like the same guy
about whom Micah 5:13 says "Your graven images also will I cut off".
This guy is born in Beit-Lechem (Bethlehem) according to Micah 5:2 (and
the Targum to Micah 5:2 says this is Messiah).

OK lets summarize:

* According to Isaiah 29 our people (Judah) are in a state of general
blindness/slumber until the sealed book is revealed (29:10-14, 18).
* Daniel tells us that his book is sealed until the last days (Dan. 12)
* The sealed information in Daniel's book would appear to be the time of Messiah in Dan. 9.
* Daniel 9 unsealed reveals to us that Messiah would be "cut off" for others sometime between 26 and 44 CE.
* This passage points us to various other prophecies about this figure
which also tell us that he is born in Beit-Lechem, and executed by
having his hands pierced.

Who could this be?

Not really a debate if its just your reply to what another person said.

The reason she now rejects Yeshua is in all likelihood hanging around and being influenced by non-Messianics, and since she's become Orthodox now, we see the end-result of those who subject themselves to Rabbis instead of Adonai.

Where's the debate?

this would make an excellent sequel to the dvd debate ;)

is this gonna be a dvd or radio debate?  

Its a debate right here... assuming Ms. Crawford believe her position is strong enough to withstand debate.

I wana make a case for the flying spaghetti monster now lol http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/The.Gospel.of_.the_....

please post us here Crawford's argument.

where can we see all here constructive speech?

and since she's become Orthodox now, we see the end-result of those who subject themselves to Rabbis instead of Adonai.

does this mean Christian that the karites, the muslims, the pagans, the idolaters, the budhists, and the athiests (who do not respect rabbinic tradition) are better, for they are sure to end up believing in Yeshua than us who keep the halachot by tradition?

 

i think your conclusion is too over stretched. can you name us here and now certain karaite rabbi who has come to the faith in Yeshoshua Moshiach because (and only because) he did not follow rabbinic tradition?

 

for all you know, everyone Jew who keeps tradition is in firm belief that he is obeying Adonay. you are greatly disinformed by your sources.

 


Solomon Avar said:

Not really a debate if its just your reply to what another person said.

The reason she now rejects Yeshua is in all likelihood hanging around and being influenced by non-Messianics, and since she's become Orthodox now, we see the end-result of those who subject themselves to Rabbis instead of Adonai.

James please post Crawford's speech.

better, invite her to come to make her post directly and defend her position here.

i promise: that will be a tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye, woman for a woman.

 
James Trimm said:

Its a debate right here... assuming Ms. Crawford believe her position is strong enough to withstand debate.


yea, a debate is not a monologue :)


Vicki Brady said:

Where's the debate?

Charlayne Crawford has been attacked by those that she has tried to help in the Messianic community before she left to become orthodox causing her to question the belief in Adon Yeshua. I to almost left the faith but I did a very deep research in the NT along with the Torah and now I am a firm believer in the true faith. The NT does agree with the Torah. I just had to flush out all the false teachings of the gentile christian church.

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