Nazarene Space

What are the advantages / disadvantages of each?

I used to be a firm believer in the Enoch (364) day solar calendar, but now I'm not so sure. It really seems like months should be based off of lunar cycles (29.5 days) based on Genesis 1... I'm not saying that I definitively reject the Enoch 364 day calendar, just that I am really starting to question it, and I am open to everyone's thoughts/opinions on the subject.

1) What calendar do you keep?
2) What facts do you base this decision on?

Views: 6718

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Sevlynn: For the record ancient Hebrew and Caananite are virtually identical languages.

Phillip: Aviv is simply the proper name of the month... as I recall it means "green ears" (not ripe ears).

Just like "Fall" is the proper name of a Season in English... leaves may or may not begin to "fall" on the first day of fall
Shalom Brother Trimm,

I certainly agree with you on the definition of 'aviv'. The denominative nature of Hebrew suggests that it is of Hebrew origin and not Babylonian (which shows a predisposition to naming calendrical components after idols, though I am far from an authority on this subject). The supposition here is that the greening of the barley ears is what is intended (as it coincides with the many other details of Spring Feasts that are mentioned in the Exodus and elsewhere) and that the moon cycle indicated by this stage of ripening is what Adonai intended to be identified as the beginning of the year by the recipients of the 'passing over of the Angel of Death' - the children of Israel and the mixed multitude that obeyed.

I am still at a loss as to why you believe that the Karaites are in error concerning this point. Thank you for your efforts to respond. I know you are a man of many responsibilities. When you have the time, would you clarify this point as presented in my earlier post?

Thank you,

Phillip

James Trimm said:
Sevlynn: For the record ancient Hebrew and Caananite are virtually identical languages.
Phillip: Aviv is simply the proper name of the month... as I recall it means "green ears" (not ripe ears). Just like "Fall" is the proper name of a Season in English... leaves may or may not begin to "fall" on the first day of fall
Passover and the new year will occur even if there is a famine and NO harvest that year.

As I stated earlier the calendar is regulated according to Gen. 1:14 by the sun, moon and stars.

The day is regulated by the sun.

The month is regulated by the moon.

The years is regulated by the stars (the Equinox - tracking the Sun through the constellations)

The Kaarite calendar makes no use of the Equinox and thus no use of the stars.
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-truth-about-the-he...

The Karrite calendar was invented as part of a rejection of the traditional calendar based on their rejection of the Oral Law
For the truth about the Oral Law see:
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-oral-law-and-nazar...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/paul-argues-talmud-bef...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/foundations-of-pharisaic
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/in-defense-of-talmudic...

Karritism did not even EXIST in the days of Yeshua, and neither did their calendar.

Kaaritism arose in the Middle Ages shortly after the rise of Islam... thats right ISLAM is older that Kaarite Judaism.

The only Jews that rejected the Oral Law concept in the middle ages were the Sadducees.. clear heretics which also rejected the concept of an afterlife or resurrection.

Why would believers in Yeshua adopt a calendar from a sect of Judaism that did not even exist in Yeshua's time and did not even arise until after the rise of Islam?



Phillip Hawley said:
Shalom Brother Trimm,

I certainly agree with you on the definition of 'aviv'. The denominative nature of Hebrew suggests that it is of Hebrew origin and not Babylonian (which shows a predisposition to naming calendrical components after idols, though I am far from an authority on this subject). The supposition here is that the greening of the barley ears is what is intended (as it coincides with the many other details of Spring Feasts that are mentioned in the Exodus and elsewhere) and that the moon cycle indicated by this stage of ripening is what Adonai intended to be identified as the beginning of the year by the recipients of the 'passing over of the Angel of Death' - the children of Israel.

I am still at a loss as to why you believe that the Karaites are in error concerning this point. Thank you for your efforts to respond. I know you are a man of many responsibilities. When you have the time, would you clarify this point as presented in my earlier post?

Thank you,

Phillip

James Trimm said:
Sevlynn: For the record ancient Hebrew and Caananite are virtually identical languages.
Phillip: Aviv is simply the proper name of the month... as I recall it means "green ears" (not ripe ears).
Just like "Fall" is the proper name of a Season in English... leaves may or may not begin to "fall" on the first day of fall
Shalom Brother Trimm,

Thank you for your reply. If I understand you correctly, your position is that the passover cannot occur after the equinox. Can you cite scripture for me? I can't seem to find any reference to the equinox in scripture anywhere. For me, without scriptural reference, this leaves the equinox as a component of the scriptural calendar in doubt.

I find the origins of the Karaites to be irrelevant to this discussion. I simply endorse their method of calendrical observation, though they would contend with you about their origins.

Since the early Hillel calendar depended on sightings of the aviv and the first sliver of the new moon and since the first mention of the procession of the equinox is found in writings that post-date the Diaspora, the claim that the passover must precede the equinox seems tenuous to me. Historically, Hipparchus is credited with discovering precession of the equinoxes. The exact dates of his life are not known, but astronomical observations attributed to him by Ptolemy date from 147 BC to 127 BC. While this does predate the Diaspora, they are in no place found in Jewish writing prior to that time. Absolutely nothing about the equinox is found that coincides with the establishment of the calendar during the Exodus.

By the way, isn't it a hallmark of the idol worshiping nations to have a spring feast that coincides with the Vernal Equinox? I thought the influence was Hellenistic...
1. The Hebrew calendar predates the Scriptures, it was not laid out in the written text, the written text assumes its readers already know the Hebrew calendar. It is part of what we call the Oral Law. Just as the written law assumes you know what an ALEF and BEIT are.

That being said the Hebrew word for "equinox" is T'KUFA which appears in the Torah but is often translated with words like "end" or "cycle". It also appears frequently in the Book of Jasher as I show in many of my footnotes to my translation of Jasher in the phrase "at the end of the year" or "the revolution of the year" or "equinox of the year" (Jasher 4:13 is just one example.

TKUFAH is Strongs 8622 "revolution, course, circuit, end, equinox"

I believe it occurs four times in the TANAK:

twice the KJV translates end (Ex. 34:22; 2Chron. 24:23)
once as circuit (Ps. 19:6)
and once in combination with another word as "come about" (1Sam. 1:20)

Ex. 34:22 says that the Sukkot must be observed "at" the T'KUFA.

The feasts of Passover and Sukkot are separated by six months and each occur in the middle of the harvest month of the former and latter rain, and are each tied to the fall equinox (T'KUFA) and Spring Equinox (T'KUFA). Passover is observed "year to year" (Deut. 13:10) i.e. once a year, if it is observed before the Spring Equinox then there would be two passovers ovserved in that year (because the TKUFA marks the end of the Solar year).

So while the traditional calendar is not derived from Scripture, it can be show to be required by Scripture.




Phillip Hawley said:
Shalom Brother Trimm,

Thank you for your reply. If I understand you correctly, your position is that the passover cannot occur after the equinox. Can you cite scripture for me? I can't seem to find any reference to the equinox in scripture anywhere. For me, without scriptural reference, this leaves the equinox as a component of the scriptural calendar in doubt.

I find the origins of the Karaites to be irrelevant to this discussion. I simply endorse their method of calendrical observation, though they would contend with you about their origins.

Since the early Hillel calendar depended on sightings of the aviv and the first sliver of the new moon and since the first mention of the procession of the equinox is found in writings that post-date the Diaspora, the claim that the passover must precede the equinox seems tenuous to me. Historically, Hipparchus is credited with discovering precession of the equinoxes. The exact dates of his life are not known, but astronomical observations attributed to him by Ptolemy date from 147 BC to 127 BC. While this does predate the Diaspora, they are in no place found in Jewish writing prior to that time. Absolutely nothing about the equinox is found that coincides with the establishment of the calendar during the Exodus.

By the way, isn't it a hallmark of the idol worshiping nations to have a spring feast that coincides with the Vernal Equinox? I thought the influence was Hellenistic...
Thank you for your reply. So again, your position is that;
1) the Passover cannot happen after the equinox
2) the equinox is determined in scripture and
3) the observance of the calendar predates scripture.

Forgive me, but we seem to keep dancing about the same issues. Perhaps I just don't understand. I can readily see how there was the observation of a calendar prior to Torah. I can see how the ancients might have observed a month or even a week where the night and day were approaching equal length, but I do not see how that could have been determined the equinox as a specific day during the time of the Exodus. The mathematics and the precise measure of time necessary to establish the day of the equinox would seem to preclude this accomplishment. I would think that within a time frame of a week or so would be the best they could manage. Thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b69DKmgQmuw

please see this video to know why the Orthodox calender is way way off...
Shalom Brother Trimm,

You said:
Passover and the new year will occur even if there is a famine and NO harvest that year.

As I stated earlier the calendar is regulated according to Gen. 1:14 by the sun, moon and stars.

The day is regulated by the sun.

The month is regulated by the moon.

The years is regulated by the stars (the Equinox - tracking the Sun through the constellations)


A couple of things jump to mind.
1) There has never been (according to the historical record) a famine or drought so severe in Israel, that there has not been enough barley to satisfy scriptural requirements to declare the new year. This includes the time during all of the Diaspora when the 'land ceased to prosper' and the majority of the region became a desert. It turns out that barley is a very hardy crop. Though grown world-wide, it is exceptionally well suited to Israel.

2) How is it that the traditions concerning the new year, Rosh Hashanah (Hebrew: ראש השנה‎, literally "head of the year,") that seem to coincide exactly with the Babylonian New Year festival of Akitu are BOTH determined my the sighting of the New Moon on the exact same day (no mention of T'KUFA)? Whereas the beginning of the year and the Passover, according to the Creator and commanded directly by Him, were to be determined by the ripening of the barley and the sighting of the New Moon? If there were to be a prohibition that included the equinox, I doubt that he would have inferred it as subjectively as you seem to believe.

Finally, I can understand and have found support in scripture for, 1) the Elders of the tribes and 2) the Priests, to judge those things that are both scriptural and civil in nature. They can even determine the traditions provided that they do not contradict His commandments. But there is no place in Torah (or Tanach for that matter) where ANY man is given permission to add to or take away from the p'shat, the plain meaning of the text, of scripture. In fact it is most strictly forbidden multiple times. So I am having a very hard time understanding how you can take the position that you have.

There is little doubt of the Babylonian influences in Rabbinic Judaism. You cannot examine their texts in any depth without encountering the names of pagan idols and the pretzel logic that make His 'commandments of none effect". And while these writings are a valuable historical and contextual resource, they cannot and should not be relied upon for doctrinal determinations. That would be like digging for gold in a minefield. You may find some treasure, but odds are that you will lose your life in the process.

This is of course, my perspective and my opinion. I cannot but wish you all of the blessings of His covenant, His redemption and His salvation. But still I caution you - be careful.

Again, Offered in His Love,
Phillip
Prove it

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
and its supposed to be new MONTH, not new moon.
I do not understand your assertion. Care to explain?

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
We use the sun primarily, and the moon we use for intercalation.
Well Christian, in Anaiah's defense... from my studies, the Hebrew text for "New Moon" (Rosh Chodesh) does not literally say "New Moon" at all, as neither the word for "New" nor "Moon" appear in any context with one another... It was really something like "New/Renewed Cycle", which can be translated either New Moon (traditional Jewish understanding) or New Month. I used to reject the concept of "New Moons" based on this very fact...

Until, however...

The earliest translators of the Septuagint clearly understood "Rosh Chodesh" as meaning "New Moon", as the Greek text blatantly translates "Rosh Chodesh: as "New Moon", leaving absolutely zero wiggle room for the month to be anything but a lunar cycle.

I, in my ignorance, get tripped up, thinking that "Well, I can read a few articles on the internet, and know Hebrew better than anyone else!" Except, obviously, my mindset was severely flawed. While I felt justified in arguing with the Hebrew text, I could not ignore the evidence provided by the early Septuagint translators, whose understanding and resources significantly predate the Masoretic Hebrew we have available today.

As the Good Book says, His people die for lack of knowledge, and this is certainly a case where that proves to be true.

So like I said, in defense of Anaiah... I, too, was ambitious about this, and it is very likely he simply hasn't studied it enough to know. That's where I was at one point, and I'm glad I humbled myself (or rather, GOT humbled, lol) enough to know better, rather than foolishly "sticking to my guns" and fighting a losing battle.

Christian said:
Prove it

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
and its supposed to be new MONTH, not new moon.
Shalom Shalom,

If I may make a small contribution, I tend to see it in more practical terms. There are many substantial sources that indicated the day-to-day observances of these matters at the time of the Master's fulfillment of prophecy.

Whether month or moon, it is clear that the month was determined by the observation of the moon as well as the application of a little common sense - like counting the days between sightings. Not being able to observe the moon is not that much of a problem. It doesn't take an astronomer to determine the maximum number of days in a lunar month, whereas it might take an astronomer to determine the correct observance of an equinox.

Concerning the abib, there is a reference in Exodus 9:31 that is helpful. It states that the barley was "in the ear" at the time when Moses announced the plague of hail to Pharoh. Some people try to use this verse to confirm that 'abib' means 'green ears'. But at the very least if confirms the time of year - Spring.

The salient point being that the barley must be harvestable by the Day of Firstfruits during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. If it had not progressed sufficiently by Rosh Chodesh to be usable by Firstfruits, then the Priests would add a month to the year. None of this was predicated upon the Sun or the stars. Adonai specifically said 'abib'. Further, hairs have been split over whether 'abib' referred to the name of a month or the condition of the winter crops; I would say both are correct, considering the denominative nature of Hebrew. This also applies to the month/moon disagreement.

I am absolutely certain that the Appointed Times were correctly observed by Messiah at Pesach, Hag HaMatzah and Yom Ha Bikkurim when He died and was resurrected. Therefore the methods used to calculate the observance of those Feast days are likewise justified, else He would not have fulfilled 'all that was written of Him'.

Since we know that the Priests used the observance of the first sliver to determine Rosh Chodesh and the observance of the 'abib' of the barley to determine the first month of the year at that time, those issues are likewise put to rest - unless you don't trust the scriptures, the historical record and the Messiah. In that case, there is little to discuss.

I hope this helps,
Phillip

Reply to Discussion

RSS

 

 

 

















 

LINKS

 

 

 

 

Badge

Loading…

© 2019   Created by James Trimm.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service