Nazarene Space

What are the advantages / disadvantages of each?

I used to be a firm believer in the Enoch (364) day solar calendar, but now I'm not so sure. It really seems like months should be based off of lunar cycles (29.5 days) based on Genesis 1... I'm not saying that I definitively reject the Enoch 364 day calendar, just that I am really starting to question it, and I am open to everyone's thoughts/opinions on the subject.

1) What calendar do you keep?
2) What facts do you base this decision on?

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Shalom J

J. Jury said:
It seems that the very basis of counting any reckoning of time is in 7 day cycles.

I think the concept might even go a little deeper. The tri-literal root (Shin - Bet - Ayin) that carries the three fundamental meanings of...
1) saba Fulfillment or Completeness,
2) sheba Seven
3) shaba Oath, Promise or Swearing
...are found associated throughout scripture.
For example, the reason for seven angels with seven final plagues is explained in terms of fullness (read fulfillment) in the book of the Revelation:
Rev 15.1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Also we find how the number seven is related to the implementation and fulfillment of an oath exemplified in Genesis 21:29-32.
Gen 21:29 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves?
Gen 21:30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well.
Gen 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them.
Gen 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba:

What is translated as Beersheba in the KJV can be understood to mean: be’er (well) of the shaba (covenant or swearing).

It is because of this and many other similar word usages that I believe His Word is usually fulfilled on multiple levels. I tend to try to understand the literal meaning of these things in the context of both the Hebrew language and culture. Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Phillip
Are you saying you agree with the assessment that the Sabbath should always be in 7 day cycles? (hence, refuting the concept of a lunar Sabbath)

Phillip Hawley said:
Shalom J

J. Jury said:
It seems that the very basis of counting any reckoning of time is in 7 day cycles.

I think the concept might even go a little deeper. The tri-literal root (Shin - Bet - Ayin) that carries the three fundamental meanings of...
1) saba Fulfillment or Completeness,
2) sheba Seven
3) shaba Oath, Promise or Swearing
...are found associated throughout scripture.
For example, the reason for seven angels with seven final plagues is explained in terms of fullness (read fulfillment) in the book of the Revelation:
Rev 15.1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Also we find how the number seven is related to the implementation and fulfillment of an oath exemplified in Genesis 21:29-32.
Gen 21:29 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves?
Gen 21:30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well.
Gen 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them.
Gen 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba:

What is translated as Beersheba in the KJV can be understood to mean: be’er (well) of the shaba (covenant or swearing).

It is because of this and many other similar word usages that I believe His Word is usually fulfilled on multiple levels. I tend to try to understand the literal meaning of these things in the context of both the Hebrew language and culture. Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Phillip
Refute might be a little strong. But this is my understanding. Literally, the Sabbath is the seventh day that marks both His work in the creation and the covenant of Israel. Any deviation from the counting of the seventh day is a deviation in the observance of His swearing and His fulfillment of His swearing. That is how I see it anyway. Got the whole 'through a glass darkly' thing going on...
Those are my thoughts as well.

I want to accept the Enoch calendar, but A) it really gives no room for intercalation, B) it doesn't tell you what day of the week to start with, and C) it leaves no room for variations of spring, barley, etc. Some versions of the Enoch calendar go so far as to have a "non day" to replace the missing 365th, thus changing the Sabbath from year to year.

:-\

So I am really hoping someone can thoroughly explain the Jewish or Karaite calendars to me.

Phillip Hawley said:
Refute might be a little strong. But this is my understanding. Literally, the Sabbath is the seventh day that marks both His work in the creation and the covenant of Israel. Any deviation from the counting of the seventh day is a deviation in the observance of His swearing and His fulfillment of His swearing. That is how I see it anyway. Got the whole 'through a glass darkly' thing going on...
Google the Karaite Korner. They explain the calendar in very basic terms. You will find that they do not put much stock in the traditions of man that conflict with scripture. Of course there are many doctrinal differences between them and those that believe on Messiah Yahshua. But their observance of the Appointed Times I cannot fault.
You will also find that they do not put much stock in the Torah (Gen. 1:14).

Question: Why do people assume that ALL "tradition" is "of men"?

Phillip Hawley said:
Google the Karaite Korner. They explain the calendar in very basic terms. You will find that they do not put much stock in the traditions of man that conflict with scripture. Of course there are many doctrinal differences between them and those that believe on Messiah Yahshua. But their observance of the Appointed Times I cannot fault.
To elaborate the Torah tells us that the moedim (set times) are regulated by the sun, moon and stars (no mention of barely).

Now how is the Kaarite human made calendar regulated by the stars? Answer: Not at all, but don't confuse them with what the text actually says).

By contrast the traditional calendar regulates the year via the Equinox, which involves tracking the sun, moon and planets through the stars of the Zodiac.

James Trimm said:
You will also find that they do not put much stock in the Torah (Gen. 1:14).

Question: Why do people assume that ALL "tradition" is "of men"?

Phillip Hawley said:
Google the Karaite Korner. They explain the calendar in very basic terms. You will find that they do not put much stock in the traditions of man that conflict with scripture. Of course there are many doctrinal differences between them and those that believe on Messiah Yahshua. But their observance of the Appointed Times I cannot fault.
Shalom Brother Trimm,

Please do not think that my purpose is to contend with you. I am simply stating my viewpoint. Nor do I consider my understanding without error. I remain a student. With that said I will respond to your initial post in rebuttal to my endorsement of the Karaite calendar.

I too believe that Gen 1:14 is essential to the understanding and observance of the Appointed Times of Adonai. After all, the word translated as 'seasons' in the KJV is the same as is used in Lev 23 to describe His Appointed Times. I find it not insignificant that 'signs' is mentioned first and is grouped with 'seasons' (moedim) as a primary reference and that days and years are likewise contextual to signs. To me this indicates that signs as they relate to His Word are directly tied to His Moedim, but I digress. However you indicate that the Karaites do not put much stock in Torah with a specific reference to this verse. Perhaps you might clarify your intent, for I am puzzled by your meaning.

Is Gen 1:14 somehow exclusive of Exo 12:1,2?
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

Is not this further clarified by Exo 13:3,4?
And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten. This day came ye out in the month Abib.

Is this not Torah? For if these events are not understood to mean that we are to use the aviv to determine which month to observe the 'lesser light' in establishing the 'beginning of months', then Jew and Gentile alike have no hope of following His Appointed Times in my estimation. But perhaps you know something of which I am unaware. Please point out my error.

You asked, 'Why do people assume that ALL "tradition" is "of men"?' Wikipedia has it that: 'The word tradition comes from the Latin traditionem which is the accusative case of traditio which means "handing over, passing on"'

Dictionary.com has the following listing: tradition
–noun
1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.
6. Theology .
a. (among Jews) body of laws and doctrines, or any one of them, held to have been received from Moses and originally handed down orally from generation to generation.
b. (among Christians) a body of teachings, or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles but not originally committed to writing.
c. (among Muslims) a hadith.
7. Law . an act of handing over something to another, esp. in a formal legal manner; delivery; transfer.

The short answer is that traditions usually are of man despite claims to the contrary. The precepts and ordinances of the Most High, from a conceptual standpoint, exist outside of the constraints of mans limitations. But I presume you mean that some of man's traditions are based on the Wisdom of Adonai. That I will gladly concede, but with a caveat: Man usually screws it up despite the best of intentions. Hence, the nearly universal hints of derision when referring to the traditions of man...

Brother, you seem to have studied these matters extensively. Your objections here are specific, but not very detailed. Could you help us out with a little more information as to why the Karaite observance of the Moedim differs from Torah? You imply that they do not utilize the 'stars' in observing the calendar, but they post the observance of the first sliver of the new moon on their website as recorded by Jew, Christian and secular observers and astronomers - so again, I'm confused by you position. Except for the verification by the (as yet unseated) Sanhedrin, the process seems to be identical to historical accounts posted on mainstream Jewish websites.

Offered in His Love,

Phillip
can someone look at my post and answer me, the current "jewish" calendar of the Rabbinics is party made up of Astrology!!!! this is not a lie, Jewish rabbinics whom i know admit this, how can anyone follow a calendar that is made up of a forbidden Torah-practice ???

James Trimm said:
You will also find that they do not put much stock in the Torah (Gen. 1:14).

Question: Why do people assume that ALL "tradition" is "of men"?

Phillip Hawley said:
Google the Karaite Korner. They explain the calendar in very basic terms. You will find that they do not put much stock in the traditions of man that conflict with scripture. Of course there are many doctrinal differences between them and those that believe on Messiah Yahshua. But their observance of the Appointed Times I cannot fault.
Prove the astrology claim, please.
The word Aviv/Abib is not a Hebrew word, but taken from the Caananite language meaning springtime, renewal, or beginning, used in context with moedim refers to a cycle of time, the first three Festivals Pesach, Unleavened Bread, and Shavout, leading us into summer as defined in the Chanokian timeframe of moedim or seasons, which is Springtime/Aviv. The term Aviv/Abib is quite often used out of context to ascribe to the reckoning of barley, as i understand Dr. Trimm was clarifying that Torah does not speak in its Hebraic Voice of barley; but to the Three Festivals as a whole defined in Leviticus 23.

Shalom

Phillip Hawley said:
Shalom Brother Trimm,

Please do not think that my purpose is to contend with you. I am simply stating my viewpoint. Nor do I consider my understanding without error. I remain a student. With that said I will respond to your initial post in rebuttal to my endorsement of the Karaite calendar.

I too believe that Gen 1:14 is essential to the understanding and observance of the Appointed Times of Adonai. After all, the word translated as 'seasons' in the KJV is the same as is used in Lev 23 to describe His Appointed Times. I find it not insignificant that 'signs' is mentioned first and is grouped with 'seasons' (moedim) as a primary reference and that days and years are likewise contextual to signs. To me this indicates that signs as they relate to His Word are directly tied to His Moedim, but I digress. However you indicate that the Karaites do not put much stock in Torah with a specific reference to this verse. Perhaps you might clarify your intent, for I am puzzled by your meaning.

Is Gen 1:14 somehow exclusive of Exo 12:1,2?
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

Is not this further clarified by Exo 13:3,4?
And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten. This day came ye out in the month Abib.

Is this not Torah? For if these events are not understood to mean that we are to use the aviv to determine which month to observe the 'lesser light' in establishing the 'beginning of months', then Jew and Gentile alike have no hope of following His Appointed Times in my estimation. But perhaps you know something of which I am unaware. Please point out my error.

You asked, 'Why do people assume that ALL "tradition" is "of men"?' Wikipedia has it that: 'The word tradition comes from the Latin traditionem which is the accusative case of traditio which means "handing over, passing on"'

Dictionary.com has the following listing: tradition
–noun
1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.
6. Theology .
a. (among Jews) body of laws and doctrines, or any one of them, held to have been received from Moses and originally handed down orally from generation to generation.
b. (among Christians) a body of teachings, or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles but not originally committed to writing.
c. (among Muslims) a hadith.
7. Law . an act of handing over something to another, esp. in a formal legal manner; delivery; transfer.

The short answer is that traditions usually are of man despite claims to the contrary. The precepts and ordinances of the Most High, from a conceptual standpoint, exist outside of the constraints of mans limitations. But I presume you mean that some of man's traditions are based on the Wisdom of Adonai. That I will gladly concede, but with a caveat: Man usually screws it up despite the best of intentions. Hence, the nearly universal hints of derision when referring to the traditions of man...

Brother, you seem to have studied these matters extensively. Your objections here are specific, but not very detailed. Could you help us out with a little more information as to why the Karaite observance of the Moedim differs from Torah? You imply that they do not utilize the 'stars' in observing the calendar, but they post the observance of the first sliver of the new moon on their website as recorded by Jew, Christian and secular observers and astronomers - so again, I'm confused by you position. Except for the verification by the (as yet unseated) Sanhedrin, the process seems to be identical to historical accounts posted on mainstream Jewish websites.

Offered in His Love,

Phillip

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