Nazarene Space

I have yet to hear a good explanation about the following two verses.  My brother became an agnostic over this discrepancy, and to this day i do not have a good answer for him.  Every explanation i've heard from both Messianicism and Christianity has thus far been lame.

 

 

II Samuel (Shem'el Bet)  24:1 AFNHSS

And the anger of YHWH was moved against Y'sra'el and he moved Dawud against them to say, "Go number Y'sra'el and Yahudah"

 

 

Dibre HaYamim Alef (First Chronicles) 21:1 AFNHSS

And Shaitan stood up against Y'sra'el  and provoked Dawud to number Y'sra'el.

 

 

II Samuel 24:1  HRV

And the anger of YHWH was kindled against Yisrael, and he moved David against them, saying:  "Go number Yisra'el and Y'hudah."

 

 

I Chron 21:1  HRV
And HaSatan stood up against Yisra'el and moved David to number Yisra'el.

 

In both verses it clearly says who is against Y'sra'el  In II Shmu'el, it says that YHWH was moved against Y'srael, but in I Chron it says that Shaitan stood up against Y'sra'el.   In II Schmu'el, it says that YHWH moved Dawud against Y'sra'el.  But in II Chronicles it says Shaitan move Dawud to number Y'sra'el.  Torah requires two witnesses.  These are two mutually exclusive witnesses.  My suspicion is that in II Samuel there is something going on with the Hebrew grammar unbeknownst to us who don't know much Hebrew: specifically what the English versions show as "and he".   Is the "he" there referring to Dawud?  Can the "and" have other meanings than "and"?   Was something removed from either of the originals of the verses?  Was something added to either of the verses?   Are there any clues in the DSS or Targum?

 

 

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There are no capital letters in Hebrew...

Nevertheless, I get the point of what you're saying, and did not mean to defend whatever other remarks Andrew may have made in the same post.

beryl etanah said:

 

solomon,

check your adversary, it is small "a"; mine is capital "A".

the point that I and it seems Solomon is also trying to make regarding the truth is that in Hebrew, satan, hasatan, etc, does not ALWAYS refer to an evil or sinful being and SOMETIMES refers to good and righteous beings, and can even refer to God Himself.  in the context here, i can easily see it referring to God and not satan, so long as God's involvement is not understood in a slanderous manner.
"conveniently applies the name to anything"  what name, satan?  that is a not a sacred name.  i also conveniently apply the name "christian" to everyone that  claims to be a follower of christ and muslim that claims to submit.  what is the problem with my usage of satan linguistically?  nothing.  so quit being so antagonistic, stirring up troubles where there are none and the only problem is your own misunderstandings of what words mean.  satan does not mean "sinful being".  it means "opposer" and anyone who opposes anything is a satan.  but in the context of rightoeusness, someone who opposes righteousness is evil, and that is the negative connotation of the word "satan".

 

we are not writing in hebrew but in english wherein G-d is different from god and Adversary is different from adversary. do you want to reason out with me in my tongue?


Solomon said:

There are no capital letters in Hebrew...

Nevertheless, I get the point of what you're saying, and did not mean to defend whatever other remarks Andrew may have made in the same post.

beryl etanah said:

 

solomon,

check your adversary, it is small "a"; mine is capital "A".

we are all seeking to mix Hebrew and eventually substitute it with our english.  Thus, any supposed gasps you may find in my writings you should reevaluate and perhaps consider that i'm longing for the hebraic mind and i detest the english mindframe.
I never called God anything;
I was telling you what the scriptures say.
There was no argument, just fact, reference and quote.
The scriptures say God's angel was an adversary toward Balaam.
We're not conflating any entities or confusing any identities.

beryl etanah said:

 

we are not writing in hebrew but in english wherein G-d is different from god and Adversary is different from adversary. do you want to reason out with me in my tongue?


Solomon said:

There are no capital letters in Hebrew...

Nevertheless, I get the point of what you're saying, and did not mean to defend whatever other remarks Andrew may have made in the same post.

beryl etanah said:

 

solomon,

check your adversary, it is small "a"; mine is capital "A".

 

i was criticizing Anayahu's (Andrew's) ascription of Adversary to the entity of The Most High. i was not commenting in your previous post.


Solomon Avar said:

I never called God anything;
I was telling you what the scriptures say.
There was no argument, just fact, reference and quote.
The scriptures say God's angel was an adversary toward Balaam.
We're not conflating any entities or confusing any identities.

beryl etanah said:

 

we are not writing in hebrew but in english wherein G-d is different from god and Adversary is different from adversary. do you want to reason out with me in my tongue?


Solomon said:

There are no capital letters in Hebrew...

Nevertheless, I get the point of what you're saying, and did not mean to defend whatever other remarks Andrew may have made in the same post.

beryl etanah said:

 

solomon,

check your adversary, it is small "a"; mine is capital "A".

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