Nazarene Space

Is (or is not) having sex on the Sabbath a sin?

I myself am (strongly) of the opinion that it is not a sin to have sex on the Sabbath; however, there are several individuals here who are (strongly) of the opinion that it is indeed a sin.

This topic has been discussed in a previous thread regarding the Sabbath restrictions found in the Book of Jubilees (not a book I support in any way), but the emphasis of that thread was on Jubilees, not this specific issue of sex on the Sabbath.

I would like to hear diverse answers from NazSpace members concerning their opinion on the matter.

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Sevynn, even if those verses said it was sin, which they dont, we could still question if they meant sin in the English sense of the term.
I appeal yet again to the example of the Nazirites - if guilt, and the necessity to make a sin-offering, constitutes moral sin, as uncleanness does, then Paul sinned by taking/ending his Nazirite vow.
But the text simply says he made the purification ritual (the sin-offering), without mentioning him as a sinner at all.

Oh, and all Nazirites EVER would be sinners. That's the implication of your position.
Actually, you did claim to be a prophet, or at least like a prophet, and like Yahshua too.

"Then fine, compare me to anyone of the prophets. It stands the same, all the prophets rebuked in the same way Yahushua did."

So does that make you are a liar too then?

I've met someone who had Wisdom like Solomon's... and you're nothing like her. :-\

Bugger off...

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I never claimed to be a prophet. I do claim to have the gift of discernment and the gift of wisdom akin to a level like that of King Solomon. But, I do not claim to speak direct words from Yahuwah. Everything comes from my own contemplation and studies.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I never claimed to be a prophet. I do claim to have the gift of discernment and the gift of wisdom akin to a level like that of King Solomon. But, I do not claim to speak direct words from Yahuwah. Everything comes from my own contemplation and studies.
So you are claiming that child bearing, menstruating, and emission of seed are all sin?

sevynn leverette said:
And if a soul 5315 sin 2398 , and commit 6213 any 259 of these things which are forbidden to be done 6213 by the commandments 4687 of YEWE 3068; though he wist 3045 [it] not, yet is he guilty 816 , and shall bear 5375 his iniquity 5771.

pretty straight foward, shalom

J. Jury said:
Yes, it is uncleanliness. Clearly and plainly.

But is it sin?

sevynn leverette said:
Of course they are unclean- this is plainly what the Torah teaches

And if a soul 5315 sin 2398 , and commit 6213 any 259 of these things which are forbidden to be done 6213 by the commandments 4687 of YEWE3068; though he wist 3045 [it] not, yet is he guilty 816 , and shall bear 5375 his iniquity 5771.</<br />
you agree that all these are unclean, so you are saying 5:17 to be untrue it says any of these things that a man touches while unclean is defiled....

Shalom
Please... Just stop....

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I said compare me to one of the prophets. This in no way was suggesting or implying that I was a prophet myself.

"I've met someone who had Wisdom like Solomon's... and you're nothing like her. :-\"

Are you trying to offend me by saying a women has more wisdom than me? I am not offended by this suggestion, but it just seems like that is what you are implying.
Amen, brother Christian.

I'm going to stop responding to him for a while... see if maybe he calms down, or his ego deflates.

Christian said:
Please... Just stop....

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
I said compare me to one of the prophets. This in no way was suggesting or implying that I was a prophet myself.

"I've met someone who had Wisdom like Solomon's... and you're nothing like her. :-\"

Are you trying to offend me by saying a women has more wisdom than me? I am not offended by this suggestion, but it just seems like that is what you are implying.
And if a soul 5315 sin 2398 , and commit 6213 any 259 of these things which are forbidden to be done 6213 by the commandments 4687 of the LORD 3068; though he wist 3045 [it] not, yet is he guilty 816 , and shall bear 5375 his iniquity 5771.

5771

perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity

a) iniquity

b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)

c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity

asham 816

to offend, be guilty, trespass

a) (Qal)

1) to do wrong, offend, trespass, commit an offense, do injury

2) to be or become guilty

3) to be held guilty

4) to be incriminated

b) (Niphal) to suffer punishment

c) (Hiphil) to declare guilty

2) (TWOT) to be desolate, acknowledge offense

of these things which are forbidden to be done 6213

to do, fashion, accomplish, make

a) (Qal)

1) to do, work, make, produce

a) to do

b) to work

c) to deal (with)

d) to act, act with effect, effect

2) to make

a) to make

b) to produce

c) to prepare

d) to make (an offering)

e) to attend to, put in order

f) to observe, celebrate

g) to acquire (property)

h) to appoint, ordain, institute

i) to bring about

j) to use

k) to spend, pass

b) (Niphal)

1) to be done

2) to be made

3) to be produced

4) to be offered

5) to be observed

6) to be used

c) (Pual) to be made

2) (Piel) to press, squeeze

mitzvah 4687

commandment

a) commandment (of man)

b) the commandment (of God)

c) commandment (of code of wisdom


shalom

Christian said:
Sevynn, even if those verses said it was sin, which they dont, we could still question if they meant sin in the English sense of the term.
I appeal yet again to the example of the Nazirites - if guilt, and the necessity to make a sin-offering, constitutes moral sin, as uncleanness does, then Paul sinned by taking/ending his Nazirite vow.
Yes- one cannot down play the relevance of personal revelation. How else does one explain the prophets? Providing they carry with them the teachings of the Torah...

Christian said:
Good explanation - I've earlier stated that I use the term "Fideism" to describe my kind of relativity in regards to conforming to the Torah without appeal to "renaissance reason", etc

I'm FULLY with you on Torah trumping the doctrine called "common sense".
I also trust supernatural experience and supernatural revelation, which I argue YHWH can objectively grant to indivuals without necessarily giving them the means to prove so to others.

I mean, the only alternative is to doubt everything and become a "brain in a vat"-solipsist or something.

J. Jury said:
I am a Torah-ist.
Do with that what you will.
Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Jesse, are you a Fideist like Christian?
Answered that some pages back.
I must rest my eyes now.


Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
"Christian, take that up with Yahuwah, I know its probably really frustrating struggling with the things Yahuwah makes me do."
Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson posted:
"Beware of Torahists. Paul condemns them."

Where does Paul ever use this term "Torahists?"

How can he condemn something he never even mentioned?

If a "Torahist" is one who subscribes to the Torah for all generations forever, then consider this a warning that you are using NazareneSpace to attack Nazarene Theology.
25 And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment
before YHWH our Elohim, as He has commanded us.
(Deut. 6:25 HRV)

Has walked in My statutes, and has kept My ordinances, to deal truly; he is just: he
shall surely live, says the Adonai YHWH.
(Ezek. 18:9 HRV)

13 For the hearers of the Torah are not righteous before Eloah, but the doers of the Torah
are justified.

(Rom. 2:13 HRV)

4 Now he who commits sin, performs Torah-less-ness: for all sin is Torah-less-ness.
...
7 My sons, let no man deceive you: he who does a righteous [thing] is righteous, as also
the Messiah is righteous.
8 He who performs sin is from HaSatan, because from the beginning HaSatan was a
sinner. And because of this, the son of Eloah appeared, to destroy the works of HaSatan.
(1Jn. 3:4, 7-8 HRV)

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Someone had used that name about himself earlier in this thread. He said he was a Torah-ist, which I realized actually matches perfectly with what Paul condemns. Many people on Nazarenespace are preaching what Paul condemned. Paul demonstrates that righteousness is not of the Law, but rather, it is of faith.
From my commentary on Romans: "Later, in verse 13, Paul explains that the promise was not given to those that merely have the Law. No, the promise was made for all those who live righteously. This includes the Gentiles that live righteously in their ignorance, and the Jews that live righteously in their full knowledge of the Law. There is the righteousness of faith and the “righteousness” of works. The righteousness of faith is those who aren’t merely keeping empty commandments that are deceptive and contrary to love, like the Essenes and many Pharisees. The righteousness of faith is those who are keeping the righteous commandments with a circumcised heart. The righteousness of works however is those who are keeping commandments with an uncircumcised heart. And as Paul explains again and again, it is those who are truly circumcised in their hearts who do right. Those that are uncircumcised in their hearts are in sin, even though on the outside it appears they are keeping the Law. Paul further explains in verse 14, that if righteousness was by merely having the Law, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect for Abraham was promised he would be the father of many nations, and not just the Jews. But how could many nations be his heirs when they didn’t have the written Law in their midst? Paul explains that if Abraham was promised that the Gentiles were to become heirs of Abraham as well by faith, and if righteousness is not by faith, but mere Law, then there is no transgression, for everyone would be considered righteous because they would be heirs of Abraham due to the promise."
Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah
and for those who will come after him,
and observe the Torah in the last days.
(1Enoch 108:1)


Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Enoch did not follow the Torah of Moses. We have to realize that the Torah of Moses is a part of the Torah of Yahuwah. It is not synonymou swith it. In no way am I saying there are two Torahs that people can choose to follow. What I am saying is the Torah of Moses does not cover all righteousness. The other Scriptures add to this, and the Holy Spirit adds to this, and our consciences testify to this as well.

ALL of the Torah of Yahuwah should be kept by all people. This includes the Torah of Moses. But there are those who only want to include the Torah of Moses, and not the entire Torah of Yahuwah.
Some of the confusion regarding whether or not ceremonial uncleanness is "sinful" stems from the fact that ceremonial unclean-ness is a type/symbol/reminder of the actual condition of sin without being sin itself. How can this be? Leaven/yeast for instance. Leaven/yeast is a type/symbol/reminder of the condition of sin. Most weeks throughout the year it is perfectly permissible to eat leavened bread. It is only during the week of Unleavened Bread, that it becomes sinful to consume leavened bread. Likewise, there are only 4 times throughout the year that men (in general) are calendar-ly required to abstain from having sexual relations: the 3 times of appearing before YHWH at the temple, and Yom HaKippurim. Throughout the rest of the year it is completely permissible when men and their wives become unclean via NORMAL sexual relations (sans the 7 days of the woman's period), The ceremonial uncleanness resulting from sex is not sinful in and of itself, however the unclean-ness IS a type/symbol/reminder of our fallen state and sin nature.
It could also be pondered that the categorizations of unclean-ness resulting from ejaculation, menstruation, and birthing, are ways to prevent us humans from fancying ourselves to be divine when we seemingly "create" lives through ejacualtion, menstruation, and birth.

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