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What can we prove from the Scripture; that He is fallible or infallible? -Ed

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Yahay, The word "infallible" means someone who never makes a mistake. So my question is, is YHWH, in this sense, infallible? Or does He make mistakes at times? One true minister of YHWH'S claims that He made a mistake with the angels, whereby He created them immortal and thus could not give them the supreme test of loyalty to Him and His Law, which was partly the reason Lucifer/Satan rebelled against Him and His Law. So this led Him to create us mortals, who could be tested with staying with true conversion to His Law (Torah) against all opposition and the possibility of suffering great pain and death from Satan and the world to prove our undying love for His Law and Him. I believe there is positive evidence that this is so. What do you know or think about this? Shalom. -Ed
I can't believe this is even a topic for discussion!???????????????????
Yes, Melinda, His Way is perfect. But that is not the question at hand. YHWH'S Way of living is the only rightful way. But He does have 24 angelic advisers around Him in heaven, as Revelation shows. If He was infallible, He wouldn't have advisors, would He? -Ed

Melinda said:
Tehillim (Psalm) 18:30
As for Y-H, His way is perfect; the word of Y-H is flawless.
What we humans define as infallible, YHWH defines it the same way. What we define as sin (lawlessness), YHWH defines it the same way. So what does YHWH define as fallible and infallible in His Scriptures? -Ed
Okay then, let's look at it from this angle: Are the concepts of good and evil intrinisc of themselves and thus non-debatable and totally objective, or are the concepts entirely subjective, with YHWH"S definition of them vs ours? -Ed

zahav peretz said:
"..What we humans define as infallible, YHWH defines it the same way..."

Reply:

The hidden syllogistic premise of that statement looks like this:
IF A is B for Man, THEN A is B for G-d.
I beg to disagree, with due respect to your faithful intentions, because this will endanger the attribute of Divine sovereignty. G-d's reasoning is far better than human reasoning and human reasoning is not binding to G-d, He has taught us clearly about this point (Yesha'yahu 55:8) much the more, even His standard of "infallibility" is far beyond human reasons ('Iyov 26:14/ or Job 26:14 in KJV)
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"..What we define as sin (lawlessness), YHWH defines it the same way..."

Reply:

No. Definitely not. G-d's prescription of "what is" lawlessness is not derived from human promulgations. Rather it is the other way around. Most if not all criminal legislation in modern judicial systems (including the US) are mainly derived from Divine precepts as found in the Ten Commandments and from its myriad distillations scattered within roman, napoleonic and english codices. The authority to define "what is" a crime may be lodged in the legislative body (be it the Senate or Church) but always the standard or precepts followed are those that concur to both: the conscience and Torah. Therefore, it is G-d who defines what is lawlessness for man to follow, but not the other way around.

All the Scriptures is given by G-d for man to profit in doctrine unto righteousness (cf. 2Timothy3:16) but it doesn't mean that "it is all that G-d is," nor does it bind Him to our own definitions (cf. John21:25; 2Pet1:20-21).
-----------------

"..So what does YHWH define as fallible and infallible in His Scriptures?"

Reply:

No need to use the scriptures.

"To err is human..." as common saying has it. Man can err. Since man can err, I too can err. You and I can err, so let us stop this thread in order to avoid possibility of erring further. :)
---------------
One edict by God I object to is in Lev. 4, where it is stated that if an ancient Israelite INADVERTANTLY, not with intent, broke a commandment, he is automatically guilty and worthy of death. I cannot see the justice of this edict, especially when considering that most of the world lived and died in total ignorance of the Law, Torah, beyond their control. What about the people of Europe, during the Middle Ages, who were not allowed to read the Bible? The Catholic hierarchy gave the penalty of death to any common person if they were caught reading the Scriptures. Since these people lived and died without any knowledge of God's Law, how could He place the penalty of death, automatically, on them, when they couldn't help breaking His Law, under the circumstances? I cannot agree with God on this; I will not stand for any unjust edict or action by Him. Mercy, when called for, must prevail before any technicality of His laws. I'm speaking from conscience's sake. For God to condemn someone who could not help breaking His law is unconscionable and unacceptable. God cannot be allowed to make any arbitrary edict He so pleases, whether it's fair or not. Comments? -Ed
zahav my brother, Then what does the sin offering entail, but an animal to die in the place of the, in this case, inadvertant sinner? And didn't the animal sacrifices prefigure Yeshua's dying in our steads, which would mean that Yeshua pays the death penalty for ALL of our transgressions, even inadvertant ones, which would mean that we are held responsible for transgressions we didn't even realize we were committing? Thus the rule of this edict, that even if a transgression of YHWH'S Law (Torah) is inadvertant, the death penalty automatically applies. How else can you read Lev. 4? And if the Gentiles are not subject to YHWH'S Law, out of ignorance of it beyond their control, then what sins would Yeshua pay for in their steads, when YHWH calls them out for their salvations? How could they accept Him as Savior, under the circumstances? Also, you are wrong when you say that Torah applies only to the Jewish people. The Scriptures show us that everyone who will enter the Kingdom will have to convert to Torah, in spirit and in truth, both Jews and Gentiles, all becoming SPIRITUAL JEWS. And if the law is too difficult to keep and not break, than the imposition of it on us is unjust. How can any authority, in good conscience, impose laws on his underlings that they cannot help break, and then subject us to the penalties? Only an evil, despotic authority would do such a thing. Using intrinsic spiritual sense, and common sense, the only laws that can be enforced are righteous laws that we are able to conform to and not break, but wilfully break them. And when I said that God (YHWH) can not be allowed to make ARBITRARY judgements and edicts, I mean that He has no right to force on anyone edicts or judgements that are proved to be unjust and unbearable for us to be able to keep. I.e., ALL laws must be based on fairness and righteous living, which we are able to keep and not break. Also all laws must be based on the INTRINSIC concept of doing what is truly right and good, and against doing what is harmful and destructive towards others. Sin is the transgression of the Law (Torah). Thus YHWH'S Law must be based on true righteousness and against evildoing, which means that His Law must be based on INTRINSIC SPIRITUAL LAW. Intrinsic spiritual law is what YHWH must use as a basis for His Commandments, statutes and precepts and policies. Intrinsic spiritual law is above YHWH, in otherwords; so, in order for HIM to BE truly righteous and justified in what He does, He must submit Himself to intrinsic spiritual law, which He clarifies for us through His Commandments. Ultimately, intrinsic spiritual law is what judges YHWH, Yeshua, the angels, and ourselves, whether we are doing what is truly right and good, or not. -Ed

zahav peretz said:
Ed:

Good that you have stated specific points to discuss. Allow me to contribute my simple persective.

---------
Quote: "One edict by God I object to is in Lev. 4, where it is stated that if an ancient Israelite INADVERTANTLY, not with intent, broke a commandment, he is automatically guilty and worthy of death."

Comment:
Leviticus 4 does not provide capital penalty for "unintentional" sins; it merely requires by provision to make a sin-offering if one is committed.

---------
Quote:"...What about the people of Europe, during the Middle Ages, who were not allowed to read the Bible? The Catholic hierarchy gave the penalty of death to any common person if they were caught reading the Scriptures."

Comment:
It is therefore the heirarchy of church that provided capital punishment over "righteous" acts, not Leviticus 4. On the other hand, Leviticus 4 was not intended to apply and hold as guilty the "people of Europe" --in your statement above-- because that legal provision was meant to be imposed by Moshe to the people of Israel, read Verse 1 of the chapter.

---------
Quote:"Since these people lived and died without any knowledge of God's Law, how could He place the penalty of death, automatically, on them, when they couldn't help breaking His Law, under the circumstances?"

Comment:
Capital punishments in Torah are meant to be imposed to transgressors who are validly bound to keep them. We must bear in mind, that although the sublime principles found in the precepts of Torah are universally "agreeable" as they are founded upon divine wisdom, it doesn't mean that these are summarily applicable to everyone in the world. Torah was meant to be kept by the Jewish people (Israel), and against them alone, therefore, are the capital punishments found therein are applicable. If the standard of holiness imposed by G-d along Torah appears too onerous to the Jews then the latter can do nothing but "accept and observe it"; however, to the non-Jews this standard does not hold because they are not expected by G-d to keep them down to the letter. In fact, which U.S. court meted capital punishment to an american criminal on the basis of Leviticus? None of course. Why? because the U.S being a separate state have separate criminal laws from that of theocratic Israel.

---------
Quote:"...For God to condemn someone who could not help breaking His law is unconscionable and unacceptable."

Comment:
The latin maxim has it: "dura lex sid lex" the law may be too difficult but still it is the law, and therefore has to be imposed.

---------
Quote:"God cannot be allowed to make any arbitrary edict He so pleases, whether it's fair or not. Comments? -Ed"

Comment:
If you think you have the authority then you may "not allow G-d to make arbitrary edict He so pleases" and maybe His angels have well "noted" down this prohibition you utter here and hopefully they can inform your god whom you cannot allow to legislate so that he will stop decreeing any further.
But as for the Jews this issue has already become moot and academic after the matan torah in har sinai, there our fathers and mothers have entered into a contract with G-d that bound not only themselves but their future children under Torah keeping forever. Had you been there you could have well advised Moshe to draw better terms in the contract that would have made Torah keeping for the Jews more like a picnic rather than a burden. :)

zahav
Senseless discussion, I am sorry to say.
He is even beyond our definition of perfection - He is the most fair, just, inclusive, logical, living, existing.
Zahav and Christian, What then, gentlemen, determines right from wrong, God's arbitrary opinions vs. ours, or are the concepts of right and wrong INTRINSIC of themselves, and thus beyond speculation and debate? How can we know? How can God Himself know? The answer is an easy one: If God (or we) do what is right and good, the results are beneficial to all of us, spiritually.. If we do what is not right and good, evil results. My stand is this: I am totally for God's Law (Torah), since it is based on what's intrinsically right and good and against what is wrong, harmful and destructive, regarding our relationship with God and with each other. Yet there are some policies that God carries out that are called into question, of whether He is taking wrongful advantage of His supreme power to get His personal and arbitrary will done. First and foremost, God states that we are responsible for breaking His Law while we are in the carnal state (without the holy spirit as yet), while Paul states that our carnal minds are hostile to Him and His Law; are not subject to His Law NOR CAN BE. Don't you see the injustice of God with this? If He does not give us the means to be able to keep His Law and not break it, then our failure to keep it is His fault, not ours. Comments? -Ed

zahav peretz said:
Christian:

You are correct. I don't even think this one came from a "true" believer of G-d. Look at his last statement:

Quote:>>"Ultimately, intrinsic spiritual law is what judges YHWH, Yeshua, the angels, and ourselves, whether we are doing what is truly right and good, or not. -Ed"

He is setting out a law that can judge G-d?

May G-d forgive him as always the drunkards are excused.

:)

Christian said:
Senseless discussion, I am sorry to say.
He is even beyond our definition of perfection - He is the most fair, just, inclusive, logical, living, existing.
zahav, the only Israelites of the Old Covenant period who were able to keep Torah in spirit and in truth were those to whom YHWH gave the (holy spirit) Ruach Ha Kodesh. The majority of Israel did not receive the Ruach, and thus were left carnal and unable to keep His Law spiritually and perfectly. Show me a carnal Israelite or Gentile who is capable of keeping YHWH'S Torah and not break it. You could not produce such a person, as Paul plainly tells us. We need to receive the Ruach IN ORDER TO be able to keep Torah in spirit and in truth, and not break it. As a matter of fact, why was Yeshua the only mortal who was able to do this, yet none of the rest of us capable? Because YHWH had Him born with the Ruach, is why. Do you understand that if Adam had chosen to eat of the Tree of Life, YHWH would have given him the Ruach and Adam could have conformed to Torah and not broken it? Why do you think Yeshua is called the "second Adam", Who did what the first Adam should have done but didn't do? Also some of what Paul teaches may AT FIRST be hard to understand, but those with the Ruach can come to understanding of them. For instance, Paul says that some people by nature keep the things contained in the Law. Now since no one is born with the knowledge that YHWH exists, no one is born with the knowledge of His Law. So what can Paul be talking about? There's only one answer: that some people are born with a kind and considerate nature, who automatically treat others rightly. This rightness of behavior is the BASIS of Torah, which means INTRINSIC spiritual rightness. Also, in one place, Paul says that the law was done away by Yeshua's sacrifice, while elsewhere Paul says that although we are under YHWH'S grace, that does not mean that the Law was done away. That sounds confusing (hard to understand) at first, until we come to realize that the law Yeshua did away with was Moses' sacrificial law of using animals for sin offerings, since Yeshua sacrificed Himself once and for all our sins, but the Law of YHWH is not done away by His grace. -Ed

zahav peretz said:
Ed:

You said:

"Yet there are some policies that God carries out that are called into question, of whether He is taking wrongful advantage of His supreme power to get His personal and arbitrary will done. First and foremost, God states that we are responsible for breaking His Law while we are in the carnal state (without the holy spirit as yet), while Paul states that our carnal minds are hostile to Him and His Law; are not subject to His Law NOR CAN BE. Don't you see the injustice of God with this? If He does not give us the means to be able to keep His Law and not break it, then our failure to keep it is His fault, not ours. Comments? -Ed"

Comment:

Ed, honestly I don't believe that The Spirit did not inspire the "keepers" of the Law before the advent of Moshiach. Much the more I don't believe that G-d gave laws that man is incapable of keeping: my faith is that G-d is rational too no only us men.

The Spirit has always aided the Jews in keeping the Torah; where faith "emunah" was found the Spirit of G-d was always there, ready to give aid to a soul that sought to fulfill G-d's will. We must hereon admit the truth that the people who call themselves christians actually DO NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY OF G-D'S SPIRIT. If you reread Hebrews chapter 11 it won't take long to realize that what these ancient Jewish faithfuls did were inspirations of the Spirit of G-d which prompted them to act accordingly. Your reading of Paul should give weight to what he is trying to spell here.

Your quote from Paul that "...our carnal minds are hostile to Him and His Law" should not be categorically taken but rather take it as an application of "hyperbole" in speech. Meaning, at the extreme point where a soul is faithless it is G-dlessly carnal and is wont to sin and wickedness; certainly a faithful Jew is not G-dless.

Certainly you have read in many points along Torah that "Israel kept all that G-d commanded them" the Spirit here making sure that G-d did not give a law that was impossible to keep.

Do not mistake Sanctifying Grace brought by the Spirit through baptism from "abiding Spirit" of G-d among his people. The former is what the soul receives for free in the mikveh b'Moshiach to set him afresh from the initial point of holiness (after being saved); while the latter is the covenantal gift of G-d to His people; the former was offered for free since the time of Yeshua, while the latter was given since the time of Creation.

By the way: I don't read Paulinian Letters except his Letter To The Hebrews.
Why?
Because he did not mean it for the Jews. In them "there are things so hard to understand that the unstable twist to his own destruction". I'd better pay attention to Kefa's advice. :)

Health and peace.

zahav
zahav, Haven't you read in Genesis where YHWH kept the way to the Tree of Life, to prevent anyone having access to it after Adam refused to obey YHWH? Do you understand that the Tree of Life represents receiving the Ruach Ha Kodesh? Do you understand that one cannot convert to YHWH'S Torah spiritually without the Ruach, which means we cannot enter into eternal life without the Ruach and genuine conversion to Torah, spiritually? I don't think you understand these things, so there's no point in going on with this conversation. No hard feelings, mind you. And do you understand what Paul means when he says that EACH WILL BE CALLED OUT IN HIS OWN TIME; first Yeshua, then His firstfruits, and the rest [of mankind] later? The spring Feasts foreshadow the calling out of Yeshua and the firstfruits. The autumn Feasts have to do with everyone else being called out for the true salvation. Yeshua Himself says that no one can come to Him unless the Father (YHWH) draw him. You don't just simply receive the holy spirit when you want to; it's up to YHWH, not us. YHWH'S plan for mankind's salvation entails a 7,000-year period, a Milennial Week, with each 1,000 years as a "day", as Kefa teaches. And YHWH is ONLY calling out those He chooses to be of the firstfruits during the first 6 "days", the first 6,000 years. ONLY those called out by YHWH to be of the firstfuits can receive the Ruach at this time, with a few exceptions that YHWH has a certain purpose for. The first 6 "days" are just about up, and the 7th "day", the Milennial Sabbath, (the upcoming 1,000-year rule of Yeshua and His firstfruits) will begin when Yeshua returns and gathers His firstfruits to begin ruling over this earth, to teach the whole world the way of YHWH, the Torah. Yeshua's return is VERY NEAR, now, which means the Great Tribulation is about to begin, during which the Father (YHWH) will send Yeshua back to this earth lest no flesh be saved alive because of the Tribulation (WW3). -Ed
zahav peretz said:
:
Ed:

Q-1--"the only Israelites of the Old Covenant period who were able to keep Torah in spirit and in truth were those to whom YHWH gave the (holy spirit) Ruach Ha Kodesh."--

Reply:
Ergo, the Ruach Haqodesh was indeed with G-d's people before Yeshua'. Todah rabah for strengthening my position.
-----------

Q-2--"The majority of Israel did not receive the Ruach, and thus were left carnal and unable to keep His Law spiritually and perfectly. Show me a carnal Israelite or Gentile who is capable of keeping YHWH'S Torah and not break it!You could not produce such a person, as Paul plainly tells us."--

Reply:
This argumentum khal ve-chomer cannot apply because in the first place it contradicts your statement in Q-1: whereof, if G-d gave the Ruach to some there is no Justice if He did not give it to all. You have no basis to prove it except your misunderstanding of Paul. Paul did not mean the Jews were carnal, it was the gentiles whom he meant! Read again your Paulinian letter.

Your tailing line says: "You could not produce such a person, as Paul plainly tells us."

I answer that: History testifies there were many pre-Yeshua and post-Yeshua Law perfect keepers, read a little about Judeo-Chrisitan history. Your fallacy is argumentum ad vericundiam: you are mainly relying by "quoting" Paul whom you misinterpret. On the contrary even in the past, before Yeshua, many people kept all that G-d commanded them, this is declared in Torah, allow me to quote:

=Bamidbar 1:54 " וַיַּעֲשׂוּ, בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל: כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יְה-, אֶת-מֹשֶׁה--כֵּן עָשׂוּ." --And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.=

If the children of Israel did according to "all" (kakhol asher tzivah) what Adonay commanded,... they were able to do it not because they were carnal but because of the Ruach Haqodesh in their midst. Of course! Torah always has a mate, the Ruach Haqodesh.

Note: If you insist in your interpretation of Paul, logic demands that either Paul was lying or this Torah pasuq is not true.
-----------

Q-3--"We need to receive the Ruach IN ORDER TO be able to keep Torah in spirit and in truth, and not break it."--

Reply:
Theoretically this is the Divine intention in order to make both the Jew and Gentile shomeyr mitzvot. Now that the "christians" received the Ruach through baptism in Yeshua, the natural query is this: "ARE THE CHRISTIANS SHOMEYR ?" If you survey the biggest prison colonies in the U.S. you will discover that 80% of the criminals are baptized christians one way or the other, only 10% is either uninitiated or de-facto unbeliever. Now, how does your interpretation of Paul applies to that? Let us not be hypocrite.
-----------

Q-4--"For instance, Paul says that some people by nature keep the things contained in the Law. Now since no one is born with the knowledge that YHWH exists, no one is born with the knowledge of His Law. So what can Paul be talking about?"--

Reply:
CONSCIENCE.............. nothing else.
Are you a theologian or not?
-----------

Q-5--"This rightness of behavior is the BASIS of Torah, which means INTRINSIC spiritual rightness."--

Reply:
Aristotle advanced well enough the validity of theory: That in every effect there is a cause.

Now, what causes your "intrinsic spiritual rightness" to exist?

and what is its "essence" if it is not Torah?
---------

I hope this will help everyone.

zahav peretz
+++
Orthodoxy must lead to orthopraxy. The best argument for Torah is by keeping kosher.
+++
zahav my brother, The only Jews who were aided by the inspiration of the Ruach Ha Kodesh to keep the purity of Torah were those who were given the Ruach by YHWH and also allowed the Ruach to guide them to the understanding. There were Jews, such as some of the Pharisaic priests, who were always resisting the Ruach, as Steven said to them before they stoned him to death. For instance, the Ruach will give us the understanding that Passover is on 14 Nisan, and the DUB run from 15 to 21 Nisan. Then why to Orthodox Jews keep the Passover on 15 Nisan? Because some Jewish priests changed it somewhere along the line, and certainly against YHWH'S will, since He says He will never change His basic Law. Just as the apostate Roman church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, Passover to Easter, the beginning of each day from sundown to midnight, etc., against YHWH'S will, as YHWH prophesied about them in Daniel 11, it appears that some apostate Jewish priests way back when changed the Passover from 14 to 15 Nisan, which today's Orthodox Jews don't realize BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL AS YET TO RECEIVE THE RUACH; THEY ARE STILL CARNAL and don't see their error in keeping Passover on 15 Nisan. The Ruach will guide us to the understanding that the true Passover is on 14 Nisan. Also our carnal minds, our minds without the holy spirit, cannot keep YHWH'S Torah in spirit and in truth, since Torah law is spiritually-based. We can only conform to His Law spiritually, and not break it if we have received the Ruach, and have taken the time to truly conform to it until we no longer break it. If our intent is to do this, we will accomplish it. -Ed

zahav peretz said:
Ed:

You said:

"Yet there are some policies that God carries out that are called into question, of whether He is taking wrongful advantage of His supreme power to get His personal and arbitrary will done. First and foremost, God states that we are responsible for breaking His Law while we are in the carnal state (without the holy spirit as yet), while Paul states that our carnal minds are hostile to Him and His Law; are not subject to His Law NOR CAN BE. Don't you see the injustice of God with this? If He does not give us the means to be able to keep His Law and not break it, then our failure to keep it is His fault, not ours. Comments? -Ed"

Comment:

Ed, honestly I don't believe that The Spirit did not inspire the "keepers" of the Law before the advent of Moshiach. Much the more I don't believe that G-d gave laws that man is incapable of keeping: my faith is that G-d is rational too no only us men.

The Spirit has always aided the Jews in keeping the Torah; where faith "emunah" was found the Spirit of G-d was always there, ready to give aid to a soul that sought to fulfill G-d's will. We must hereon admit the truth that the people who call themselves christians actually DO NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY OF G-D'S SPIRIT. If you reread Hebrews chapter 11 it won't take long to realize that what these ancient Jewish faithfuls did were inspirations of the Spirit of G-d which prompted them to act accordingly. Your reading of Paul should give weight to what he is trying to spell here.

Your quote from Paul that "...our carnal minds are hostile to Him and His Law" should not be categorically taken but rather take it as an application of "hyperbole" in speech. Meaning, at the extreme point where a soul is faithless it is G-dlessly carnal and is wont to sin and wickedness; certainly a faithful Jew is not G-dless.

Certainly you have read in many points along Torah that "Israel kept all that G-d commanded them" the Spirit here making sure that G-d did not give a law that was impossible to keep.

Do not mistake Sanctifying Grace brought by the Spirit through baptism from "abiding Spirit" of G-d among his people. The former is what the soul receives for free in the mikveh b'Moshiach to set him afresh from the initial point of holiness (after being saved); while the latter is the covenantal gift of G-d to His people; the former was offered for free since the time of Yeshua, while the latter was given since the time of Creation.

By the way: I don't read Paulinian Letters except his Letter To The Hebrews.
Why?
Because he did not mean it for the Jews. In them "there are things so hard to understand that the unstable twist to his own destruction". I'd better pay attention to Kefa's advice. :)

Health and peace.

zahav

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