Nazarene Space

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I found this picture here to the side to be blatantly obvious where Karaitism came from, as you can see it is two Islamic crescent moons encompassing Judaism.  The objectivist can clearly see when researching Karaitism that Nehemia Gordon and Michael Rood have become masters of revisionist history, and blatant dishonesty.  Michael Rood in Gordon's book has proudly proclaimed himself a Messianic Karaite, and many lemmings have followed Rood's lead off a cliff of confusion caused by a "make it up as you go along" style of theology.  What is Karaite Judaism?

"Karaite, Karaim or Qaraim root word is; “kara,” which means; “reader.” The Muslim Kara-n (Koran), means the “Reading” or the “Book of the Qaraims”. All Muslims are Karaites (Qaraims) and are readers of the Karan (Koran). "

(The Official Karaite Directory http://karaite.org/page1.html)

Wait a minute.....I thought that Karaitism was a form of Judaism?  This is a much different story than what we have read on Gordon's website:

Karaism is the original form of Judaism as prescribed by God in the Torah. Karaite Judaism rejects later additions to the Tanach (Jewish Bible) such as the Rabbinic Oral Law and places the ultimate responsibility of interpreting the Bible on each individual. Karaism does not reject Biblical interpretation but rather holds every interpretation up to the same objective scrutiny regardless of its source. 


(Karaite Korner http://www.karaite-korner.org/)


So we have a problem and we have a contradiction here.  Someone is lying here.  The fruit can be seen through the objectivity of their history and beliefs.  So lets look to find similarities, and ask does Islam have anything to gain from Judaism and does Judaism have anything to gain from Islam.  Who has adopted traits from who?  Well this becomes rather obvious.  When we look at the Barley fascination.  Note that in Numbers 28, and Leviticus 23, does not mention the great barley hunt as being what determines the new year nor many of the other feasts and appointed times the Karaites claim is pivotal in citing these appointed times.  The only place where such reverence for barley is given is in the Koran, in Zakat 24                                       (http://www.al-islam.org/laws/al-khui/24.htm ).  This ideal is NOT something found in the Scripture, in neither the Tanakh nor the New Testament, so therefore how can the Karaites claim to be Scripture only when they do not even follow the Scripture in terms of the appointed times and seasons.  Lets look at the moon as well.  The Karaites claim the new moon, for times and seasons, is that of the crescent.  Now this is where the Hebrew language really helps us with it's word pictures. In Isaiah 66:23 the text is shown as such in the Hebrew to mean concealment cause of many closed mems within the text.   

Islam celebrates the crescent moon as do the Karaites for the month of Nison and others....lets look at the history and Scripture on this and lets break down this crescent moon thing:

Moses reminded Israel and now us, to rebuke the worship of pagan god's - especially the crescent moon god, who was considered the guardian of the night. For more biblical evidence of this, we need only go to the book of Deuteronomy. In chapter four, Moses is telling the Israelites to be concerned and aware of the rites and ceremonies of pagan religious practices. "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, [keep in mind a "statute" is something which is established or defined - a prescribed task], that you might do them in the land whither you go over to possess it. Take you therefore good heed unto yourselves; for you saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: lest you corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female" (Deut 4:14-16). The word "similitude" that is used here, is Strong's # 8544. Its definition is: 1. appearance; 2. form; 3. something pass before your eyes; 4. image; 5. representation; 6. semblance; 7. likeness. Notice again Deut. 4:12 concerning this word "similitude," "And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: You heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; [ image or likeness ] only you heard a voice" (Deut 4:12). Remember Moses just told us in verses 15 and 16, to take heed and make no graven image or likeness of any figure. Now in verse 19, "And lest you lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when you See the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, should be driven to worship them, and serve them, [worship them # 5647] which the Lord your God has divided unto all nations under the whole heaven." Take note in this verse of the word "see." "When you see, the sun and the moon even all the host of heaven." "See" is Strong's # 7200, it literally means: 1. see; 2. to view 3. to see a face of someone or thing; 4. look at objects of pleasure; 5. to behold.
You can only make a image out of something you can see. You cannot make an image out of something you cannot see! Moses in the same speech , told Israel in verse 23, "Take heed unto yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord your God has forbidden you."
With this in mind, it should be clear that we are not to embrace the crescent moon that Abraham and his family were told to move away from and Israel and Judah were commanded not to serve.
Postponing God's true new moon, which is not seen, for the image of the crescent moon, that is seen – is worshiping Nannar - Haran and Ur's crescent moon god, that was used for their calendar. Moses again reminds Israel, "But the Lord has taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto God a people of inheritance, as you are this day" (Deut 4:20).



(http://www.postponements.com/id276.htm


Now what do the Muslims say about the Crescent Moon: 

 Crescent moon as the standard to be used for reckoning of time:
"They ask you about the waxing and waning phases of the crescent moons, say they are to mark fixed times for mankind and Hajj." (2:189) 




(http://www.moonsighting.com/quranmoon.html)




So, where does this look familiar?  Oh...Nehemia Gordon's own website mirrors the same sentiments as the Islamists do:

The Biblical month begins with the crescent New Moon, also called First Visible Sliver. The Hebrew word for month (Hodesh) literally means New Moon and only by extension the period between one New Moon and the next. 



(http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml



Now we have to answer the question, what has Islam adopted from Judaism...........(crickets chirping)....nothing.  

 There are many other similarities and they will be covered in an upcoming book I am writing called The Karaite Yeshua vs the Real Yeshua: A Response to Messianic Karaite Judaism.  And there will be many things in this book that Nehemia Gordon and Michael Rood do not want you to know about Karaite Judaism, and it will be covered as will the revisionist history, the facts will come out to a Hebraic Roots audience about Crimean Karaites and their role in Nazi Germany and what became of them.  Yeshua the Messiah and his use of the Talmud and his agreeance with the House of Hillel.  And much much much more.  So make sure to look out for The Karaite Yeshua vs The Real Yeshua: A Response to Messianic Karaite Judaism this fall. 

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I seem to remember James saying he thought it was Messiah being referred to in San 43.  If my memory is correct he reversed himself to the incorrect interpretation. 

So please do tell me what this Yeshu Bar Suma has to do with Matthew, Legal Innocence, God's Son, Netzer (the Branch) and (thanksgiving) Offering (or Thaddeu the Apostle).  In effect the listed attributes are the names of this particular Yeshu.  Each of them is 1000% coherent in reference to Yahushua the Messiah.  And for bar Suma??????

I think you will be very hard pressed to say taht ANY of these themes relate to bar Sum in any-way.  I predict that you will have to display massive amounts of twistyness to fabricate an answer the will ring hollow.

Waiting on your response,

The New Oye In Town said:

In James' latest show, he responded to someone who made the same claim even he said the ideal was ridiculous to assert it was Yeshua of Nazareth now we may disagree as to who it is, but it is obviously not Yeshua of Nazareth.  In the first 20 minute Dr Trimm addresses these myths http://www.nazarenemedia.net/4/post/2012/08/the-clear-truth-the-fea...



Yirmeyahu said:

The names of the disciples have of this certain "Yeshu" have a very clear link to Christianity.  If you insist on saying that they refer to Bar Suma please explain how the following names relate to his historical persona.

1) Mattai- sonoral similarity to "Matthew" the tax collector who was called and wrote a Gospel

2).  Naqi - the innocent - Yahushua lived perfectly as regards the Torah of Moshe, a claim no one ever made about Bar Suma.

3)  . Buni -  My Son - Yahushua is believed on by keepers of the true faith as the Son of God.

4).  Netzer - The branch as it is written in Isaiah;  Also Messiah was from Natseret.  What does this have to do with Bar Suma?

5).  Thodah - Thansgiving Offering - was there any reputation about Bar Suma that he was a thanksgiving offering or any other sort of offering?  No.

Every single one of these names is 100% coherent as a reference to the person of Messiah or Messianic theology.

Seems to me like you are trying to remove the first part of the passage from the second to achieve your desired interpretation.

By the way even Mr. Trimm thinks this passage indeed references Yahushua.

Of course the Talmud doesn't specifically state Yahushua, but given the Rabbinic tendency towards non literal interpretations it was not difficult to know who was referred to.



The New Oye In Town said:

The Yeshu spoken about was Yeshua Bar Suma as noted in the book of Acts he was a magician during the times of the Maccabees, he ha 4 disciples.  Not Yeshua of Nazareth,  

Yirmeyahu said:

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

Very well said.

Insinuating that the Karaites have any connection in modern times to Islam is intellectual hodge podge, and poor scholarship.

That having been said, I am not a Karaite. I respect the Karaite position, but I do not keep their observances.


Chandler Fulton said:

Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.

...

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims.

Here's a bit of sound scholarship that should clear up the obvious confusion here.

When Eliezer ben Yehudah "restored" the Hebrew language, he did so by, in many instances, "borrowing" terms from other languages. Because of its origin as a Semitic language, Arabaic was generally one of the first languages he turned to. It should come as no surprise that many Hebrew words share affinities with Arabic.



Solomon Avar said:

"Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org."

Explain what?

What part of them need explanation ?

The part about where they don't blindly follow traditions ?

I'm no Karaite, but so far I don't see what's the problem.

I notice it was said KARAites were named after Quran.
Well, Wayiqra has QARA in it too, so by your standard, Leviticus must be a Quranically inspired book.

The New Oye In Town said:

Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org.  They are Islamic Roots without a doubt 

Chandler Fulton said:

Where does all of this hostility toward the Karaites comes from?  From your own insecurity.  Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.  The truth is Karaites are closer to the true faith than all other forms of Judaism.  They follow the Scriptures, and only the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew, in their faith and practice.  This cannot be said of most of the members of this forum.  Talmud, traditions and oral law are the order of the day on this website, which is very sad.  There are teachings in the Scriptures that are not even seen, understood or taught by the members of this website.  We should stick to clear Scripture and teachings that profit the hearers and readers instead of arguing over traditions and extra-biblical literature. 

 

As to comparing the Karaites to Muslims: this is an ignorant and underhanded attempt to discredit the "Scripture only" position of the Karaites.  Don't you know that the Muslims copied much of their faith and practices from the children of Abraham?  Did not Ishmael become the father of the Muslim nations?  And where along the line did the true faith that Ishmael learned from his father Abraham get corrupted?  Through centuries of traditions and extra-biblical "revelations".  Take almost any practice of the Muslims today and you will notice a very clear similarity to  the teachings of the Torah.   The practices of the Muslims were passed down through tradition and corrupted through centuries of adding to and taking away from the Torah. 

The Karaites have continued through the centuries to preserve the "Scripture only" position of true followers of YHWH, even though they are blinded and do not accept Yahshua as the Messiah and reject the New Testament. 

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims. 

Don't waste your time writing your worthless book, for it is only because that you feel threatened by the pure motives of the Karaites to stick to "Scripture Only" that you are attacking the Karaites.  Your book will only be a waste of time and paper and will serve to poison the minds of others toward their commendable postion of "Scripture Only". 

Paul warned us of "Questions and strifes about the Torah" that do not profit.  Beware lest you fall into this trap.

So explain this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JeCYBs20hU this was a video put out about Karaite Jews, saying to bow to Allah and how to build a Karaite Jewish Mosque

The group that put out that video is called Reformed Karaism, which suggests something different from (regular) Karaism.
Secondly, even if they were not "reformed" but traditional/regular Karaites, would that make them representatives of all Karaites ?

I notice spurious groups and people, for instance white supremacists and such people, they always have one or two videos or proof-texts where one guy "admits" something, f.ex one Jew gives his opinion on something, and it's taken to be representative of all Jews. It's ridiculous. One Karaite cannot "admit" something on behalf of anyone but himself.

The New Oye In Town said:

So explain this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JeCYBs20hU this was a video put out about Karaite Jews, saying to bow to Allah and how to build a Karaite Jewish Mosque

I tried to explain this on face book before you blocked me.

The group putting out this information is not in any way connected to official Karaite Judaism. Their case is (basically) that "Karaite" is a generic term that can refer to any sect of religious observance, be it Jewish, Muslim, or something else altogether, that basically refers to a subsect of believers who are Scripture onlyists, and do not accept the added traditions their main sect adheres to. So (as their website explains) for Judaism, Karaite Jews accept the Tanach, but not the Talmud. For Islam, the subsect would adhere to the Quran, but not the Hadith.

What I am trying to communicate to you is this: the information you are finding does not represent Karaite Judaism, and it is known that Karaite Judaism has no connection to Islam. The place you are getting your info from blatantly states, "This site is specifically about Tehudah Reformed Karaite Judaism, which is predominantly from Amsterdam, Holland." In other words, you are taking the beliefs of a small, weird group, and saying, "Look everybody, it's the Karaites!"



The New Oye In Town said:

So explain this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JeCYBs20hU this was a video put out about Karaite Jews, saying to bow to Allah and how to build a Karaite Jewish Mosque

And my point here is not to defend the Karaites. I'm not a Karaite, and I don't play one on TV. My point here is to illustrate poor scholarship and lashon hara toward the Karaite sect. There are a lot of legitimate issues with Karaism. A connection to Islam isn't one of them.

Titles and more titles. mmm.  I'm right and you're wrong. mmmm.  More religious nonsense.  What is the point in taking a position on a title?  Either you have made Teshuvah and belong to the Yisrael of Yahweh, according to His directive, or you have not.  Simple as that.

Simply amazed; however, not amused.  Man is forever casting aspersions at others who hold views different from their own.  Such things do not edify the body.  It is one thing to warn of errant doctrine and something all together different to condemn someone for views different from your own.

We are not to cast stumbling blocks in the path of others who are searching for the truth, and we are not to boil a kid in its mother''s milk.  We are all at various stages in our walk with Yahweh, and many people are still searching for Him.  They may get off course every now and then; however all praise to Yahweh who helps us find Him if we have been appointed to find Him; however that we find Him is by no means our doing.

We are to love Yahweh and love our neighbors as ourselves.  And once we find the Truth, we are not to sell it....Buy the Truth and Sell it not....i.e. do not abandon it.

Love edifies.  I would rather hear two words of encouragement to follow Yahweh to the end rather than what I have just read in your post.

Shalom

As a Karaite with Nazarene Jewish leanings (with regard to Yeshua), I reject this. Comparing any form of Judaism to Islam is below the belt. Honestly, I expect this from Hebrew Rooters, but certainly not among fellow Jews.

Seems to me the crux of this discussion is concerning ones leanings towards barley sightings and concealed new moons. I reject the barley requirement but have recently been swayed to the concealed new moon theories. This post helped along those lines. Thanks! 

it is good to perform and debate a halachic point;

it is bad to leave undone and continue debate over halacha.

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