Nazarene Space

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I found this picture here to the side to be blatantly obvious where Karaitism came from, as you can see it is two Islamic crescent moons encompassing Judaism.  The objectivist can clearly see when researching Karaitism that Nehemia Gordon and Michael Rood have become masters of revisionist history, and blatant dishonesty.  Michael Rood in Gordon's book has proudly proclaimed himself a Messianic Karaite, and many lemmings have followed Rood's lead off a cliff of confusion caused by a "make it up as you go along" style of theology.  What is Karaite Judaism?

"Karaite, Karaim or Qaraim root word is; “kara,” which means; “reader.” The Muslim Kara-n (Koran), means the “Reading” or the “Book of the Qaraims”. All Muslims are Karaites (Qaraims) and are readers of the Karan (Koran). "

(The Official Karaite Directory http://karaite.org/page1.html)

Wait a minute.....I thought that Karaitism was a form of Judaism?  This is a much different story than what we have read on Gordon's website:

Karaism is the original form of Judaism as prescribed by God in the Torah. Karaite Judaism rejects later additions to the Tanach (Jewish Bible) such as the Rabbinic Oral Law and places the ultimate responsibility of interpreting the Bible on each individual. Karaism does not reject Biblical interpretation but rather holds every interpretation up to the same objective scrutiny regardless of its source. 


(Karaite Korner http://www.karaite-korner.org/)


So we have a problem and we have a contradiction here.  Someone is lying here.  The fruit can be seen through the objectivity of their history and beliefs.  So lets look to find similarities, and ask does Islam have anything to gain from Judaism and does Judaism have anything to gain from Islam.  Who has adopted traits from who?  Well this becomes rather obvious.  When we look at the Barley fascination.  Note that in Numbers 28, and Leviticus 23, does not mention the great barley hunt as being what determines the new year nor many of the other feasts and appointed times the Karaites claim is pivotal in citing these appointed times.  The only place where such reverence for barley is given is in the Koran, in Zakat 24                                       (http://www.al-islam.org/laws/al-khui/24.htm ).  This ideal is NOT something found in the Scripture, in neither the Tanakh nor the New Testament, so therefore how can the Karaites claim to be Scripture only when they do not even follow the Scripture in terms of the appointed times and seasons.  Lets look at the moon as well.  The Karaites claim the new moon, for times and seasons, is that of the crescent.  Now this is where the Hebrew language really helps us with it's word pictures. In Isaiah 66:23 the text is shown as such in the Hebrew to mean concealment cause of many closed mems within the text.   

Islam celebrates the crescent moon as do the Karaites for the month of Nison and others....lets look at the history and Scripture on this and lets break down this crescent moon thing:

Moses reminded Israel and now us, to rebuke the worship of pagan god's - especially the crescent moon god, who was considered the guardian of the night. For more biblical evidence of this, we need only go to the book of Deuteronomy. In chapter four, Moses is telling the Israelites to be concerned and aware of the rites and ceremonies of pagan religious practices. "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, [keep in mind a "statute" is something which is established or defined - a prescribed task], that you might do them in the land whither you go over to possess it. Take you therefore good heed unto yourselves; for you saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: lest you corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female" (Deut 4:14-16). The word "similitude" that is used here, is Strong's # 8544. Its definition is: 1. appearance; 2. form; 3. something pass before your eyes; 4. image; 5. representation; 6. semblance; 7. likeness. Notice again Deut. 4:12 concerning this word "similitude," "And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: You heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; [ image or likeness ] only you heard a voice" (Deut 4:12). Remember Moses just told us in verses 15 and 16, to take heed and make no graven image or likeness of any figure. Now in verse 19, "And lest you lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when you See the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, should be driven to worship them, and serve them, [worship them # 5647] which the Lord your God has divided unto all nations under the whole heaven." Take note in this verse of the word "see." "When you see, the sun and the moon even all the host of heaven." "See" is Strong's # 7200, it literally means: 1. see; 2. to view 3. to see a face of someone or thing; 4. look at objects of pleasure; 5. to behold.
You can only make a image out of something you can see. You cannot make an image out of something you cannot see! Moses in the same speech , told Israel in verse 23, "Take heed unto yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord your God has forbidden you."
With this in mind, it should be clear that we are not to embrace the crescent moon that Abraham and his family were told to move away from and Israel and Judah were commanded not to serve.
Postponing God's true new moon, which is not seen, for the image of the crescent moon, that is seen – is worshiping Nannar - Haran and Ur's crescent moon god, that was used for their calendar. Moses again reminds Israel, "But the Lord has taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto God a people of inheritance, as you are this day" (Deut 4:20).



(http://www.postponements.com/id276.htm


Now what do the Muslims say about the Crescent Moon: 

 Crescent moon as the standard to be used for reckoning of time:
"They ask you about the waxing and waning phases of the crescent moons, say they are to mark fixed times for mankind and Hajj." (2:189) 




(http://www.moonsighting.com/quranmoon.html)




So, where does this look familiar?  Oh...Nehemia Gordon's own website mirrors the same sentiments as the Islamists do:

The Biblical month begins with the crescent New Moon, also called First Visible Sliver. The Hebrew word for month (Hodesh) literally means New Moon and only by extension the period between one New Moon and the next. 



(http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml



Now we have to answer the question, what has Islam adopted from Judaism...........(crickets chirping)....nothing.  

 There are many other similarities and they will be covered in an upcoming book I am writing called The Karaite Yeshua vs the Real Yeshua: A Response to Messianic Karaite Judaism.  And there will be many things in this book that Nehemia Gordon and Michael Rood do not want you to know about Karaite Judaism, and it will be covered as will the revisionist history, the facts will come out to a Hebraic Roots audience about Crimean Karaites and their role in Nazi Germany and what became of them.  Yeshua the Messiah and his use of the Talmud and his agreeance with the House of Hillel.  And much much much more.  So make sure to look out for The Karaite Yeshua vs The Real Yeshua: A Response to Messianic Karaite Judaism this fall. 

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Hi New Oye,

I am not a Karaite and so won't speak on their behalf, but your post did make we wonder something.  First, where was the picture at the top of the post located?  Second, since you call into question Karaite theology, could you define Rabbinic Theology, so we have some frame of reference? 


My understanding is that Rabbinic Judaism is primarily concerned with defining the kosher way of doing the Torah, that is to say it concerns itself primarily with telling an adherent exactly how to 'correctly' keep the law concerning commands found in, and also absent from the written word.

I have heard it said that Rabbinic Judaism commands a certain mode of works but leaves a Jew free in terms of belief.  Is that correct?  I ask because you reference the "make it up as you go theology" of the Karaites.  I have wondered for the longest time exactly what the theology of the Rabbins is.

Also, I suspect that labelling the Koran "The book of the Karaim" is just juvenile scholarship.  As far as I know the book of the Karaites is the Tanak and nothing but the Tanak.  Am I wrong?  To my knowledge no Karaite reads the Koran as a matter of practice.

It seems like you are resorting to a "National Inquirer" sort of logic on that point.

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

Where does all of this hostility toward the Karaites comes from?  From your own insecurity.  Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.  The truth is Karaites are closer to the true faith than all other forms of Judaism.  They follow the Scriptures, and only the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew, in their faith and practice.  This cannot be said of most of the members of this forum.  Talmud, traditions and oral law are the order of the day on this website, which is very sad.  There are teachings in the Scriptures that are not even seen, understood or taught by the members of this website.  We should stick to clear Scripture and teachings that profit the hearers and readers instead of arguing over traditions and extra-biblical literature. 

 

As to comparing the Karaites to Muslims: this is an ignorant and underhanded attempt to discredit the "Scripture only" position of the Karaites.  Don't you know that the Muslims copied much of their faith and practices from the children of Abraham?  Did not Ishmael become the father of the Muslim nations?  And where along the line did the true faith that Ishmael learned from his father Abraham get corrupted?  Through centuries of traditions and extra-biblical "revelations".  Take almost any practice of the Muslims today and you will notice a very clear similarity to  the teachings of the Torah.   The practices of the Muslims were passed down through tradition and corrupted through centuries of adding to and taking away from the Torah. 

The Karaites have continued through the centuries to preserve the "Scripture only" position of true followers of YHWH, even though they are blinded and do not accept Yahshua as the Messiah and reject the New Testament. 

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims. 

Don't waste your time writing your worthless book, for it is only because that you feel threatened by the pure motives of the Karaites to stick to "Scripture Only" that you are attacking the Karaites.  Your book will only be a waste of time and paper and will serve to poison the minds of others toward their commendable postion of "Scripture Only". 

Paul warned us of "Questions and strifes about the Torah" that do not profit.  Beware lest you fall into this trap.

The Yeshu spoken about was Yeshua Bar Suma as noted in the book of Acts he was a magician during the times of the Maccabees, he ha 4 disciples.  Not Yeshua of Nazareth,  

Yirmeyahu said:

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org.  They are Islamic Roots without a doubt 

Chandler Fulton said:

Where does all of this hostility toward the Karaites comes from?  From your own insecurity.  Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.  The truth is Karaites are closer to the true faith than all other forms of Judaism.  They follow the Scriptures, and only the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew, in their faith and practice.  This cannot be said of most of the members of this forum.  Talmud, traditions and oral law are the order of the day on this website, which is very sad.  There are teachings in the Scriptures that are not even seen, understood or taught by the members of this website.  We should stick to clear Scripture and teachings that profit the hearers and readers instead of arguing over traditions and extra-biblical literature. 

 

As to comparing the Karaites to Muslims: this is an ignorant and underhanded attempt to discredit the "Scripture only" position of the Karaites.  Don't you know that the Muslims copied much of their faith and practices from the children of Abraham?  Did not Ishmael become the father of the Muslim nations?  And where along the line did the true faith that Ishmael learned from his father Abraham get corrupted?  Through centuries of traditions and extra-biblical "revelations".  Take almost any practice of the Muslims today and you will notice a very clear similarity to  the teachings of the Torah.   The practices of the Muslims were passed down through tradition and corrupted through centuries of adding to and taking away from the Torah. 

The Karaites have continued through the centuries to preserve the "Scripture only" position of true followers of YHWH, even though they are blinded and do not accept Yahshua as the Messiah and reject the New Testament. 

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims. 

Don't waste your time writing your worthless book, for it is only because that you feel threatened by the pure motives of the Karaites to stick to "Scripture Only" that you are attacking the Karaites.  Your book will only be a waste of time and paper and will serve to poison the minds of others toward their commendable postion of "Scripture Only". 

Paul warned us of "Questions and strifes about the Torah" that do not profit.  Beware lest you fall into this trap.

Hmmm, I find your statement rather interesting so the question is, can you explain this?

Alternatively, what is andifa? The lock on the forehead. Even as a certain Galilean chanced to visit Babylon and was requested to lecture on the chariot passage. He said to them, 'I will lecture to you as R. Nehemiah lectured to his companions.' Thereupon a wasp came out of the wall and stung him on the andifa (forehead) and he died. Said they. 'This befell him through his own fault.'

- Shabbath 80b 
What is mashkokith? - Here they explained it: 'The bell'. R. Jacob, however, said: 'The goat that leads the herd.' So too a certain Galilean in one of his discourses before R. Hisda [said] that when the shepherd becomes angry with his flock he appoints for a leader one which is blind. 

- Baba Kamma 52a 

A certain Galilean lectured before R. Hisda: 'Blessed be the Merciful One who gave a three-fold Torah to a three-fold people through a third-born on the third day in the third month.' With whom does this agree? With the Rabbis.

- Shabbath 88a 

As a certain Galilean lectured before R. Hisda: 'The Holy One, blessed be He, said: I put a rebi'ith of blood in you; therefore I commanded you concerning blood.'

- Shabbath 31b 

Nebuzaradan, [After that] he saw the blood of Zechariah seething. ‘What is this?’ cried he. ‘It is the blood of sacrifices, which has been spilled,’ they answered. ‘Then,’ said he, ‘bring [some animal blood] and I will compare them, to see
whether they are alike.’ So he slaughtered animals and compared them, but they were dissimilar. ‘Disclose [the secret]
to me, or if not, I will tear your flesh with iron combs,’ he threatened. They replied: ‘This is [the blood of] a priest and a
prophet, who foretold the destruction of Jerusalem to the Israelites, and they killed him.’ ‘I,’ said he, ‘will appease him.’
So he brought the scholars and slew them over him, yet it did not cease [to boil]. He brought schoolchildren and slew them over him, still it did not rest; he brought the young priests and slew them over him, and still it did not rest, until he had slain ninety four thousand, and still it did not rest. Whereupon he approached him and cried out, ‘Zechariah, Zechariah, I have destroyed the flower of them: dost thou desire me to massacre them all?’ Straightway it rested. Thoughts of repentance came into his mind: if they, who killed one person only, have been so [severely punished], what will be my fate? So he fled, sent his testament to his house, and became a proselyte.
(b.San 96b) 

It is written, Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, He shall be exalted, and extolled, and be very high (Isaiah 52:13). It means, He shall be more exalted than Abraham of whom it is written, 'I lift up my hand' (Genesis 14:22). He shall be more extolled than Moses of whom it is said, 'As a nursing father beareth the nursing child' (Numbers 11:12). 'And shall be very high'—that is, Messiah shall be higher than the ministering angels.
(Midrash Tanhuma Is. 52:13)

Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, Your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth. Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you. The Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, how long will this last? God replies: "Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain" Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, I accept this with
gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the House of Israel should perish. Not only for those
alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.
(Midresh Pesqita Rabbah 36)

What is the cause of the mourning [of Zech. 12:12]--... It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the
slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. (Zech. 12:10)
(b.Sukkot 52a)

The new heart alludes to man's nature, and the [new] spirit to the desire and will. It is this which our Rabbis have said : "And the years draw nigh, when you shall say: I have no pleasure in them; these are the days of the Messiah, as they will offer opportunity neither for merit nor for guilt," for in the days of the Messiah there will be no [evil] desire in man but he will naturally perform the proper deeds and therefore there will be neither merit nor guilt in them, for merit and guilt are dependent upon desire.
(Ramban on Deut. 29:6)

“What is Messiah’s name?” Rabbi Shila offers  the answer: “His name is Shiloh, for it is written, ‘until Shiloh comes.” 
(b.San. 98b)




…”the scepter” referring to the Messiah of the House of Judah, and “the staff” to the Messiah of the House of Joseph.
“Until Shiloh comes”, this is Moses, the gematria of Shiloh and Moses being the same.
(Zohar 1:25)

The word Shiloh, here, is spelt with both a yod and a he, to allude to the holy supernal name, Yah, by which the Shekinah shall rise…
(Zohar 1:237)

The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you at My right hand. To the Messiah it will also be said, and in mercy the throne be established;…
(Midrash Tehillim on Ps. 110:1)

to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old, Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, he who lives forever, the Messiah, in whose days peace shall increase upon us"
(Targum Jonathan Is. 9:6)

Rabbi Jose the Galilean says: The name of the Messiah too is "peace"; as it is written: "God the mighty, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace" (Quoting Is. 9:5-6 (6-7))
(PEREK HA SHALOM; NUMBERS RABBAH XI, 16-20)

He said to him: ‘I have yet to raise up the Messiah,’ of whom it is written, For a child is born to us (Isa. IX, 5). Until I come unto my Lord unto Seir (Gen. XXXIII, I4). R. Samuel b. Nahman said: We have searched all the Scriptures and we have nowhere found [it stated] that Jacob ever came together with Esau at Seir. What then is the meaning of, 'Unto Seir’? Jacob [meant] to say to him: 'I have yet to raise up judges and saviours to exact punishment from you.’ Whence this? For it is said, And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau (Obad. I, 21). Israel asked God: ‘Master of the Universe, how long shall we remain subjected to him?' He replied: 'Until the day comes of which it is written, There shall step forth a star out of Jacob and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel (Num. XXIV, 17); when a star shall step forth from Jacob and devour the stubble of Esau.’
(Midrash Rabbah - Deuteronomy I:20)

"As for the expression El Gibbor, the whole verse in which this occurs in an epitome of the holy supernal faith. The word "Wonderful" alludes to the supernal Wisdom, which is wondrous and concealed beyond the reach of all; "Counsellor" is the supernal stream which issues forth perennially and counsels all and waters all; "El" refers to Abraham, "Gibbor" to Issac, and "Everlasting Father" to Jacob, who lays hold of both sides and attains perfection. The "Prince of Peace" is the Zaddik, who brings peace to the world, peace to the House, peace to the Matrona."
(Zohar 3:31a)

And you, O Bethlehem Ephrath, you who were too small to be numbered among the thousands of the house of Judah, from you shall come forth before Me the Messiah, to exercise dominion over Israel, he whose name was mentioned from before,
from the days of creation.
(Targum Jonathan; Micah 5:1)

‘What is his name?’ ‘His name is Menachem5 [Comforter].’ ‘What is his father’s name?’ ‘Chizkiyahu.’ ‘Where do they live?’ He answered, ‘In Birat-’Arba, in Beit-Lechem of Judea.’
(Midrash Rabbah to Lamentations, Section 51 (on Lamentations 1:16)

The Targum of the Prophets was composed by Jonathon ben Uzziel under the guidance of Haggai, Zechariah and
Malachi... and a Bat Kol (voice from heaven) came forth and exclaimed, "Who is this that has revealed My secrets to mankind?"... He further sought to reveal by a Targum the inner meaning of the Ketuvim, but a bat kol went forth and said, "Enough!". What was the reason?-- Because the date of the Messiah is foretold in it.
(b.Megillah 3a)

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.... Rab said: All the predestined dates have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.
(b.San. 97a-97b)

What is the cause of the mourning [of Zech. 12:12]--... It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. (Zech. 12:10)
(b.Sukkot 52a)

Behold, My Servant the Messiah shall prosper; he shall be exalted and great and very powerful.
(Targum Jonathan on Is. 52:13)

It is the will of the Lord to purify and to acquit as innocent the remnant of His people, to cleanse their souls of sin, so that they may see the Kingdom of their Messiah, have many sons and daughters, enjoy long life, and observe the Torah of the Lord, prospering according to his will.
(Targum Jonathan on Is. 53:10)

The Rabanan say that that Messiah's name is the Suffering Scholar of Rabbi's House (or the Leper Scholar) for it is
written, "Surely he has born our grief and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted."
(b.San. 98a)

The Messiah- what is his name? The House of Rabbi Judah the Holy One says: The Sick One "Surely he has born our sicknesses"
(b.San. 98b)

Rabbi Joshua came upon the prophet Elijah as he was standing at the entrance of Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai's cave. He asked him: "When is the Messiah coming?" The other replied: "Go and ask him yourself." "Where shall I find him?" "Before the gates of Rome." "By what sign shall I know him?" "He is sitting among the poor people and covered with wounds."(see Is. 53:5)
(b.San. 98a)

In the Garden of Eden there is a hall that is called the "hall of the afflicted." Now it is into this hall that the Messiah goes and summons all the afflictions and pains and sufferings of Israel to come upon him. And so they all come upon him. And had he not eased the children of Israel of their sorrow, and taken their burden upon himself, there would be none who could endure the suffering of Israel in penalty of neglecting the Torah. Thus it is written: "Surely our diseases he did bear and our pains he carried." (Is. 53:5) As long as the children of Israel dwelt in the Holy Land, they averted all afflictions and sufferings from
the world by the service of the sanctuary and by sacrifice. But now it is the Messiah who is averting them from the habitants of the world.
(Zohar 2:212a)

All Israelites have a share in the world to come… And these are the ones who have no part in the World to Come: He who says, the resurrection of the dead is a teaching which is not derived from the Torah…
(m.San. 10:1)

Rabbi Nahman said to Rabbi Isaac: “Have you heard when Bar Nafle will come?” “Who is Bar Nafle?”, he asked. “Messiah,” he answered, “Do you call Messiah Bar Nafle?” “Even so,” he rejoined, “As it is written: “In that day, I will raise up the tabernacle of David ha-nofelet [that is fallen]. (Amos 9:11)”
(b.San 97a)

The [profession of] unity that every day is [a profession of] unity is to be understood and to be perceived. We have said in many places that this prayer is a profession of Unity that is proclaimed: ”Hear O Yisrael, YHWH“ first, [then] “Eloheynu” [and] “YHWH” they are all One and thus He is called “One”. Behold, these are three names, how can they be one? Is it because we call them one? (literally: And also concerning the proclamation that we call them one?). How these are one can only through the vision of the Holy Sprit be known. And these are through the vision of the closed eye (or the hidden eye) To make known that these three are one. And this is the mystery of the voice that is heard. The voice is one. And is three GAUNIN: fire and air and water. And all these are one in the mystery of the voice. And also here “YHWH, Eloheynu, YHWH” these are One. Three GAUNIN that are One. And this is the voice of the act of a son of man in [proclaiming] the Unity. And to which he sees by the Unity of the “All” from Eyn Sof (the Inifinite One) to the end of the “All”. Because of the voice in which it is done, in these are three that are one. And this is the [profession] of the daily profession of Unity that is revealed in the mystery of the Holy Spirit. And there are many GAUNIN that are a Unity, and all of them are true, what the one does, that the other does, and what that one does, the other does.
(Zohar 2:43)



This is the Middle Pillar: Ki Tov (that it was good) threw light above and below and on all other sides, in virtue of YHWH,
the name which embraces all sides.
(Zohar 1:16b)

Better is a neighbor that is near, than a brother far off. This neighbor is the Middle Pillar in the Godhead, which is the Son of Yah.
(Zohar 2:115)

The Holy One, blessed be He, has a son, whose glory (tifret) shines from one end of the world to another. He is a great
and mighty tree, whose head reaches heaven, and whose roots are set in the holy ground, and his name is “Mispar” and his
place is in the uppermost heaven… as it is written, “The heavens declare (me-SaPRim) the glory (tifret) of God” (Ps. 19:1). Were it not for this “Mispar” there would be neither hosts nor offspring in any of the worlds.
(Zohar 2:105a)

We may also translate "he who withholds blessings from the Son" (Prov. 11:26), whom the Father and Mother have CROWNED and blessed with many blessings, and concerning whom they commanded, "Kiss the SON lest he be angry"    (Ps. 2:12), since he is invested with judgment (GEVURAH) and with mercy (CHESED)
(Zohar 3:191b)

The Middle Pillar [of the godhead] is Metatron, Who has accomplished peace above, According to the glorious state there.
(Zohar 3:227)

And Abraham said to his oldest servant of his house…" (Gen. 24:2) Who is this of whom it said "his servant?" In what sense must this be understood? Who is this servant? R. Nehori answered: "It is in no other sense to be understood than expressed in the word "His servant," His servant, the servant of Elohim, the chief to His service. And who is he? Metatron, as said. He is appointed to glorify the bodies which are in the grave. This is the meaning of the words "Abraham said to His servant" that is to the servant of Elohim. The servant is Metatron, the eldest of His [YHWH's] House, who is the firstborn of all creatures of Elohim, who is the ruler of all He has; because Elohim has committed to Him the government over all His hosts.
(Zohar 1:129b)

Our father Jacob said: "My soul does not wait for salvation such as that wrought by Gideon, the son of Joash, for that was but temporal; neither for a salvation like that of Samson, which was only transitory; but for that salvation which You have promised to come, through Your Word unto Your people, the children of Israel; for your salvation my soul hopes."
(Targum Jonathan Gen. 49:18)

But Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHWH with an everlasting salvation… By the Word of YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified…
(Targum Jonathan Is. 45:17, 25)

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Word of YHWH, their God.
(Targum Jonathan Hosea 1:7)

The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you at My right hand. To the Messiah it will also be said, and in mercy the throne be established;…
(Midrash Tehillim on Ps. 110:1)

The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand Until I make your enemies your footstool (Ps. 110:1) “The Lord says unto my Lord”: to wit, the upper grade [of the Godhead], said to the lower [grade of the Godhead], “sit at My right hand”,…
(Zohar 1:50b)

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end (Is. 9:6). R. Tanhum said: Bar Kappara expounded in Sepphoris, Why is every mem in the middle of a word open, whilst this is closed? — The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to appoint Hezekiah as the Messiah, and Sennacherib as Gog and Magog; whereupon the Attribute of Justice said before the Holy One, blessed be He: ‘Sovereign of the Universe! If Thou didst not make David the Messiah, who uttered so many hymns and psalms before Thee, wilt Thou appoint Hezekiah as such, who did not hymn Thee in spite of all these miracles which Thou wroughtest for him?’ Therefore it [sc. the mem] was closed. Straightway the earth exclaimed: ‘Sovereign of the Universe! Let me utter song before Thee instead of this righteous man [Hezekiah], and make him the Messiah.’ So it broke into song before Him, as it is written, From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. Then the Prince of the Universe said to Him: ‘Sovereign of the Universe! It [the earth] hath fulfilled Thy desire [for songs of praise] on behalf of this righteous man.’ But a heavenly Voice cried out, ‘It is my secret, it is my secret.’ To which the prophet rejoined, ‘Woe is me, woe is me: how long [must we wait]?’ The heavenly Voice [again] cried out, ‘The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously: which Raba — others say, R. Isaac — interpreted: until there come spoilers, and spoilers of the spoilers.
(b.San. 94a)

Further, the words “let us make man” may be taken to signify that Elohim imparted to the lower beings who came from the side of the upper world the secret of forming the divine name “Adam”, which embraces the upper and the lower in virtue of its three letters, aleph, daleth, and final MEM. When these three letters descended below, together in their complete form, the name Adam was found to comprise male and female. The female was attached to the side of the male until Elohim cast him into a deep slumber, during which he lay on the site of the Temple. God then sawed her off from him and adorned her like a bride and brought her to him, as it is written, “And he took one of his sides and closed up the place with flesh.” (Gen. 2:21).
(Zohar 1:34b)

The open Mem. What is the open Mem ? It includes both male and female. What is the closed Mem ? It is made like a womb from above. But Rabbi Rahumai said that the womb is like the letter Teth . He said it is like a Teth on the inside, while I say that it is like a Mem on the outside. What is a Mem? Do not read Mem, but Mayim (water). Just like water is wet, so is the womb always wet. Why does the open Mem include both male and female, while the closed Mem is male? This teaches us that the Mem is primarily male. The opening was then added to it for the sake of the female. Just like the male cannot give birth, so the closed MEM cannot give birth. And just like the female has an opening with which  to give birth, so can the open MEM give birth. The MEM is therefore open and closed.
(Bahir 84-85)

Judah and Hezekiah, the sons of R. Hiyya, once sat at table with Rabbi and uttered not a word. Whereupon he said: Give the young men plenty of strong wine, so that they may say something. When the wine took effect, they began by saying: The son of David cannot appear ere the two ruling houses in Israel shall have come to an end, viz., the Exilarchate, in Babylon and the Patriarchate in Palestine, for it is written, And he shall be for a Sanctuary, for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both houses of Israel (Is. 8:14). Thereupon he [Rabbi] exclaimed: You throw thorns in my eyes, my children! At this, R. Hiyya [his disciple] remarked: Master, be not angered, for the numerical value of the letters of yayin is seventy, and likewise the letters of sod: When yayin [wine] goes in, sod [secrets] comes out.
(b.San. 38a)

R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses: Is is written: And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven. (Dan. 7:13) Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowely, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)

Binding his foal unto the vine. (Gen. 49:11) The vine is the community of Israel, so called also in the verse: “You did remove a vine from Egypt” (Ps. 80:9). By “his foal” is meant the Messiah, … Hence it is written of him that he will be “poor and riding on an ass and on a young ass’s colt” (Zech. 9:9) “Colt” and “ass” are two crowns by virtue of which the Gentiles have dominion…. he rides upon an ass and upon a colt, to overthrow the strength of the Gentiles…
(Zohar 1:238a)

Thereupon his [the emperor's] daughter said to him [the Rabbi]: 'Let me answer him: In our town there are two potters; one fashions [his products] from water, and the other from clay: who is the more praiseworthy?' 'He who fashions them from water, he replied. 'If he can fashion [man] from water,  surely he can do so from clay!'  The School of R. Ishmael taught: It can be deduced from glassware: if glassware, which, though made by the breath of human beings, can yet be repaired when broken;  then how much more so man, created by the breath of the Holy One, blessed be He.  A sectarian [min]  said to R. Ammi: 'Ye maintain that the dead will revive; but they turn to dust, and can dust come to life?'
(b.San. 91a)

A sectarian [min] said to Gebiha b. Pesisa, 'Woe to you, ye wicked, who maintain that the dead will revive; if even the living die, shall the dead live!' He replied, 'Woe to you, ye wicked, who maintain that the dead will not revive: if what was not,[now] lives, — surely what has lived, will live again!' 
(b.San. 91a) 


…it happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on condition that you
teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he repulsed him with the builders cubit which was in his hand. When he went before Hillel, he said to him "Do not to others what you would not have them do to you: that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it." (see Mt. 22:34-40)
(b.Shab. 31a)

As for the righteous man, by faith to him one may find life." (Hab. 2:4b) This refers to all those who obey the Law among
the Jews whom God will rescue from among those doomed to judgment, because of their suffering and their faith in the
Teacher of Righteousness.
(Hab. Com. 7, 17 - 8, 3)



Yirmeyahu said:

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

The names of the disciples have of this certain "Yeshu" have a very clear link to Christianity.  If you insist on saying that they refer to Bar Suma please explain how the following names relate to his historical persona.

1) Mattai- sonoral similarity to "Matthew" the tax collector who was called and wrote a Gospel

2).  Naqi - the innocent - Yahushua lived perfectly as regards the Torah of Moshe, a claim no one ever made about Bar Suma.

3)  . Buni -  My Son - Yahushua is believed on by keepers of the true faith as the Son of God.

4).  Netzer - The branch as it is written in Isaiah;  Also Messiah was from Natseret.  What does this have to do with Bar Suma?

5).  Thodah - Thansgiving Offering - was there any reputation about Bar Suma that he was a thanksgiving offering or any other sort of offering?  No.

Every single one of these names is 100% coherent as a reference to the person of Messiah or Messianic theology.

Seems to me like you are trying to remove the first part of the passage from the second to achieve your desired interpretation.

By the way even Mr. Trimm thinks this passage indeed references Yahushua.

Of course the Talmud doesn't specifically state Yahushua, but given the Rabbinic tendency towards non literal interpretations it was not difficult to know who was referred to.



The New Oye In Town said:

The Yeshu spoken about was Yeshua Bar Suma as noted in the book of Acts he was a magician during the times of the Maccabees, he ha 4 disciples.  Not Yeshua of Nazareth,  

Yirmeyahu said:

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

New Oye,

I enjoyed this post. To clarify,  I didn't mean that every corner of the Talmud and Midrash rejects Messiah, I was speaking of San 43 in particular, which is of great importance to me because I am a Quartordecimanian. (I keep Passover on the 14th).  My point was that the passage of Talmud in question, if properly interpreted, says that Yahushua didn't actually walk out the Rabbinic Halakah for Passover.  I didn't mean that Rabbinic Literature utterly rejects him.

The New Oye In Town said:

Hmmm, I find your statement rather interesting so the question is, can you explain this?

"Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org."

Explain what?

What part of them need explanation ?

The part about where they don't blindly follow traditions ?

I'm no Karaite, but so far I don't see what's the problem.

I notice it was said KARAites were named after Quran.
Well, Wayiqra has QARA in it too, so by your standard, Leviticus must be a Quranically inspired book.

The New Oye In Town said:

Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org.  They are Islamic Roots without a doubt 

Chandler Fulton said:

Where does all of this hostility toward the Karaites comes from?  From your own insecurity.  Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.  The truth is Karaites are closer to the true faith than all other forms of Judaism.  They follow the Scriptures, and only the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew, in their faith and practice.  This cannot be said of most of the members of this forum.  Talmud, traditions and oral law are the order of the day on this website, which is very sad.  There are teachings in the Scriptures that are not even seen, understood or taught by the members of this website.  We should stick to clear Scripture and teachings that profit the hearers and readers instead of arguing over traditions and extra-biblical literature. 

 

As to comparing the Karaites to Muslims: this is an ignorant and underhanded attempt to discredit the "Scripture only" position of the Karaites.  Don't you know that the Muslims copied much of their faith and practices from the children of Abraham?  Did not Ishmael become the father of the Muslim nations?  And where along the line did the true faith that Ishmael learned from his father Abraham get corrupted?  Through centuries of traditions and extra-biblical "revelations".  Take almost any practice of the Muslims today and you will notice a very clear similarity to  the teachings of the Torah.   The practices of the Muslims were passed down through tradition and corrupted through centuries of adding to and taking away from the Torah. 

The Karaites have continued through the centuries to preserve the "Scripture only" position of true followers of YHWH, even though they are blinded and do not accept Yahshua as the Messiah and reject the New Testament. 

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims. 

Don't waste your time writing your worthless book, for it is only because that you feel threatened by the pure motives of the Karaites to stick to "Scripture Only" that you are attacking the Karaites.  Your book will only be a waste of time and paper and will serve to poison the minds of others toward their commendable postion of "Scripture Only". 

Paul warned us of "Questions and strifes about the Torah" that do not profit.  Beware lest you fall into this trap.

In James' latest show, he responded to someone who made the same claim even he said the ideal was ridiculous to assert it was Yeshua of Nazareth now we may disagree as to who it is, but it is obviously not Yeshua of Nazareth.  In the first 20 minute Dr Trimm addresses these myths http://www.nazarenemedia.net/4/post/2012/08/the-clear-truth-the-fea...



Yirmeyahu said:

The names of the disciples have of this certain "Yeshu" have a very clear link to Christianity.  If you insist on saying that they refer to Bar Suma please explain how the following names relate to his historical persona.

1) Mattai- sonoral similarity to "Matthew" the tax collector who was called and wrote a Gospel

2).  Naqi - the innocent - Yahushua lived perfectly as regards the Torah of Moshe, a claim no one ever made about Bar Suma.

3)  . Buni -  My Son - Yahushua is believed on by keepers of the true faith as the Son of God.

4).  Netzer - The branch as it is written in Isaiah;  Also Messiah was from Natseret.  What does this have to do with Bar Suma?

5).  Thodah - Thansgiving Offering - was there any reputation about Bar Suma that he was a thanksgiving offering or any other sort of offering?  No.

Every single one of these names is 100% coherent as a reference to the person of Messiah or Messianic theology.

Seems to me like you are trying to remove the first part of the passage from the second to achieve your desired interpretation.

By the way even Mr. Trimm thinks this passage indeed references Yahushua.

Of course the Talmud doesn't specifically state Yahushua, but given the Rabbinic tendency towards non literal interpretations it was not difficult to know who was referred to.



The New Oye In Town said:

The Yeshu spoken about was Yeshua Bar Suma as noted in the book of Acts he was a magician during the times of the Maccabees, he ha 4 disciples.  Not Yeshua of Nazareth,  

Yirmeyahu said:

Furthermore, your assertion that Yahushua was a Talmudic Jew, so to speak, is refuted by the Talmud itself! 

If you read Luke 22:7-15 you will see that Yahushua ate a Passover Seder with his disciples less than 24 hours before he died. 

Now b.Sanh 43a says:

And it is tradition that on the Eve of Pesach they hung Yeshu. 

There is clearly a reference to Messiah if you read the rest of the passage. 

So we cee clearly that "Yeshu" was hung on the afternoon before the Rabbinic Passover, whereas in the mind of the Gospel writers, the Messiah had already kept HIS Kosher Passover.


So as I said before, the Talmud itself invalidates your argument that Yahushua was a follower of the oral torah.

well clearly it shows it was started in Islam, I mean that cannot be refuted also check out this Karaite video as well from a Karaite YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JeCYBs20hU&feature=share&li...

Solomon Avar said:

"Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org."

Explain what?

What part of them need explanation ?

The part about where they don't blindly follow traditions ?

I'm no Karaite, but so far I don't see what's the problem.

I notice it was said KARAites were named after Quran.
Well, Wayiqra has QARA in it too, so by your standard, Leviticus must be a Quranically inspired book.

The New Oye In Town said:

Explain then the Crimean Karaites and the official Karaite website www.karaite.org.  They are Islamic Roots without a doubt 

Chandler Fulton said:

Where does all of this hostility toward the Karaites comes from?  From your own insecurity.  Now you are comparing Karaites to Muslims, which is a blatant fabrication of the truth.  The truth is Karaites are closer to the true faith than all other forms of Judaism.  They follow the Scriptures, and only the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew, in their faith and practice.  This cannot be said of most of the members of this forum.  Talmud, traditions and oral law are the order of the day on this website, which is very sad.  There are teachings in the Scriptures that are not even seen, understood or taught by the members of this website.  We should stick to clear Scripture and teachings that profit the hearers and readers instead of arguing over traditions and extra-biblical literature. 

 

As to comparing the Karaites to Muslims: this is an ignorant and underhanded attempt to discredit the "Scripture only" position of the Karaites.  Don't you know that the Muslims copied much of their faith and practices from the children of Abraham?  Did not Ishmael become the father of the Muslim nations?  And where along the line did the true faith that Ishmael learned from his father Abraham get corrupted?  Through centuries of traditions and extra-biblical "revelations".  Take almost any practice of the Muslims today and you will notice a very clear similarity to  the teachings of the Torah.   The practices of the Muslims were passed down through tradition and corrupted through centuries of adding to and taking away from the Torah. 

The Karaites have continued through the centuries to preserve the "Scripture only" position of true followers of YHWH, even though they are blinded and do not accept Yahshua as the Messiah and reject the New Testament. 

I am not defending the Karaites here, only your dishonest attempt to show that the Karaites somehow are "Muslims", and that they got their beliefs from the Muslims. 

Don't waste your time writing your worthless book, for it is only because that you feel threatened by the pure motives of the Karaites to stick to "Scripture Only" that you are attacking the Karaites.  Your book will only be a waste of time and paper and will serve to poison the minds of others toward their commendable postion of "Scripture Only". 

Paul warned us of "Questions and strifes about the Torah" that do not profit.  Beware lest you fall into this trap.

OK, I will watch the video. By the way, if Karaites are a lunar sabbath group, I obviously reject and have to disagree with that aspect fo them.

But here's something worth contemplating:

Couldn't the Karaite position/doctrine/tradition be interpreted as simply another set of Rabbinic rulings ?
It seems that since Talmud already contains different and contradictory rulings or advice, that this could be seen as just another contribution to that same inventory of Jewish tradition. Rabbinics already admit they're free to choose among several different and accepted Jewish halakas.

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