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What are opinions on the diety of Moshiach, and the trinity?

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I think that one problem with "studies" is that they are just too long some times and people get lost halfway... (or is that just me being lazy?? haha..)

anyhow i meant to say that we should not post such long studies when the Scripture tells us what to believe on a subject;

4 Shema, Yisrael: YHWH eloheinu YHWH echad. (Devarim 6:4)
Yosef bar David, fear not to take unto thee Mariam thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of Rukha d'koodsha. (Matti 1:20)
Who's the Father? The Father or the Ruach (Holy Spirit)? Are there *two* Fathers in the Trinity?
Ruach (Strongs 7307) is the Hebrew word for 'spirit,' it is defined as 'breath' 'air' 'strength' 'wind' 'breeze.' It's Greek equivalent used in Brit Chadasha (new testament) is pneuma also meaning 'the wind' 'to breathe' or 'blow.' (Strongs 4151) Clearly the Ruach is the breath of G-d and can not be a separate person within the godhead.

And about Yeshua (btw Yahshua is a false name because it has no historical or scriptural reference to this name neither in the Tanakh, greek NT translations or in the Galilean Aramaic original --which reads Yeshu btw-- ) he is indeed divine because he is the Supreme Agent/Son of Alaha called "Mshikha" and foretold in the Tanakh;

We find through-out the Tanakh references that could only be Mashiach, yet could also only be G-d. I find such examples as subtle hints of the divine nature of Mashiach.

"For thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, here am I, and I will search for My sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are separated, so will I seek out My sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the day of clouds and thick darkness." Ezekiel 34:11,12

G-d claims that He Himself will be the Shepherd for His sheep, yet a few verses later, in Eze 34:23, He shows it is Messiah who will shepherd them:
"And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even My servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd."
Both are true: G-d Himself is shepherd; and Messiah, His servant David, is shepherd.
Ameyn.

Regarding the 2nd question:
The Messiah is definetely El - but angels are also described as El.
The biggest question is whether Yahushua "inheriting his Father's Name" means He achieved something he didn't have before, or not - as well as whether Yahushua (not the physical body, but the El inside it) was CREATED at some point or not.


Devan Smiralia said:
I do seem to agree that the trinity concept was borrowed from paganism. I really can't find biblical evidence of it. The T'nakh never calls G-d "three in one" or anything of that nature - simply "echod". Not to mention that the trinity concept falls apart when all of the names of G-d come into play.
So, the bigger of the two questions was the least addressed: what are opinions on the diety of Moshiach?
Messiah was never "created"... He was eternally existent within "The Infinite One" before He was "brought forth" (not "created"). Messiah created all created things (Col. 1) thus putting himself outside the category of "created things" (other wise he would have to have created HIMSELF). Moreover Paul tells us He is the "Wisdom" of YHWH and thre was NEVER a time that YHWH lacked His Wisdom. Messiah was "brought forth" from within the Infinite One, but NOT "created".
The Ruach is the Mother, she "came upon" Miriam so that she could serve as her surrogate.
Messiah had two "natures" dwelling within him, a human nature and that of the Word incarnate. The human nature was fully mortal and had been created like all human souls on the sixth day.
How can HE have breasts with milk?
This sounds like a description of the two-gendered Baphomet.


Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Elohimhead according to Odes of Solomon, Chapter 19:1-6

"A cup of milk was offered to me, and I drank it in the sweetness of the Lord's kindness.
The Son is the cup, and the Father is He who was milked; and the Holy Spirit is She who milked Him;
Because His breasts were full, and it was undesirable that His milk should be ineffectually released.
The Holy Spirit opened Her bosom, and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the Father.
Then She gave the mixture to the generation without their knowing, and those who have received it are in the perfection of the right hand."
The womb of the Virgin took it, and she received conception and gave birth.
How do you interpret the Israelite name "Ammishadday" ?
Ammi means "my people", backed up by the later appearing name "Lo-Ammi", explained as "Not My People".
"My People of the Breasts"? May well be, but I'd like to hear your interpretation.

So Shadday can also mean male reproductive organs?

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
its symbolic of the kind of love a husband and wife have when they have relations. the male "breasts" then are not what we usually think of. rather, it is the male reproductive organs that the ode is talking about, to further demonstrate what kind of love we are talking about here. We are talking about the kind of love that occurs when a husband and his wife unite. this is the kind of love that was involved when God brought the Son into the world.
It appears several times in the book of Numbers (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=ammishaddai&version...), the name of a Danite in one of the Torah books, do a search if you want, the word Shadday appears as an element in many names - the relevance of the name is that it is an existing name, that should have a meaning.

What do you think the meaning is? If it is the same word Shadday as you describe, it should be a word that harmonizes with the word "Ammi".

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
where does the name ammishadday come into relevance? does odes of solomon use the word ammishadday?
The Deity of Christ, and how the Father used Him

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God, that, however, is not the point. All three persons of the Trinity are co equally God, but they are not the same, that is to say. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is that the Father first gives instructions to the Son, who then gives instructions to the Holy Spirit. Which I believe is confirmed as follows.

In verse 2 below, we are told, " the Spirit of God was hovering", that is to say awaiting instructions.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] [fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

In verses 3 & 22 below we are told, "through Him", not by Him,

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

When the second person of the Trinity became human, the Holy Spirit both, "drove", Him, see verse 12,

Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days [that] Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And immediately, coming up from [fn] the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mar 1:12 Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

And was used by Him,

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And through whom He also gave instructions

Act 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

He Himself made it clear at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

As did His Father at,

Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

Jesus commenting on the above said,

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Every blessing.

Edwin.
Because many who are leading astray went out into the world who do not confess YeweShua the Anointed One as coming in the flesh. This one is leading astray and the architype messiah. See to yourselves, that we do not lose what we worked for, but that we might recieve a complete reward. Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of the Anointed One does not posses Eloah.

The one who stays in the teaching posses the BOTH; the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching;

DO NOT RECIEVE HIM INTO YOUR HOUSE OR GREET HIM, FOR HE WHO GREETS HIM SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORKS.
2 Yohanan 7-11
Jesus is God.

Jesus is God, but He is also man at the same time. Have a look at Isaiah Ch 48 vs 12-16, but don't read the whole of v 16, just yet, read only, "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there" (ESV).

Now ask yourself, Who is speaking?, the answer can only be, the Lord our GOD, now read the rest of v 16, "And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.". It is clear then that the one speaking in the first part of this verse must be our Lord Jesus, and none other.. An expanded version follows.

Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.


Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. (NKJV).

Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking. "And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."

Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.

Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."

Could this verse I wonder be what Jesus had in mind when He said.

Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Now have a look at John Ch 8, verse 58. Here Jesus identifies Himself as "I AM", the two words are, "ego eimi", and are taken from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the OT made about 300 BC.

These two words are taken from Exodus Ch 3 v 14, where God told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel. I AM has sent me to you"... This is the most Sacred, and Holy name/description of the Lord our God it means "I HAVE BEEN WHAT I HAVE BEEN,I AM THAT/WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE". This Title was also understood by the Jews to mean "The perpetually self revealing all existent one".

It was considered so sacred by the Jews, that they were forbidden to pronounce it, when reading Scripture publicly.

There was no doubt in the minds of those who heard Jesus, that He was claiming to be God.

John 10:17-18. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Note. Only God can raise Himself back from the dead.

Who did Isaiah really see?

Isa 6:1 IN the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King,
The LORD of hosts."

John referring to this passage said.

Jhn 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
Jhn 12:38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"*
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
Jhn 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."*
Jhn 12:41 These things Isaiah said when* he saw His glory and spoke of Him

So then just who did Isaiah see?

Jhn 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
Jhn 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Have a look at the verses bellow, and my comments that follow.

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, Fear not, I am the first and the last,

When John worshiped the angel, at Rev 22:8, he was told not to do so, but to worship God.. It is abundantly clear that the person described at, Rev 1:12-16, is none other than Jesus Himself, who, you will note does, not rebuke him, but accepts john's worship, and goes on to say that He is, "the first and the last,".. This title, or if you prefer, this description is applicable only to Almighty God, the LORD, see the verses from Isaiah, bellow.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.


Now, Salvation.

Mat 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Jesus is the savior, but as, Isa 43:11, above says, "I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.", so they must both be the same, and therefore Jesus is God.


Now, what about, "John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!", It is possible of course that Thomas made a mistake, but if he did, why did Jesus not correct him, as the angel did at Rev 22:9,, remember, the very first example given above. Jesus accepted being referred to as, "My Lord and my God!", because that is exactly what He is, "My Lord and my God!".

It is clear from the Scripture passage bellow that, "thirty shekels of silver", is the price, or value of a dead slave. When Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
Matt 26:15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.. They were in effect saying that in their estimation, Jesus had about as much value as a dead slave. In other words, they were both insulting and contemptuous of him.

Ex 21:28 "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Ex 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
Ex 21:30 "If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him.
Ex 21:31 "Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.
Ex 21:32 "If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.


This contemptuous insult is reflected in our LORD's words, "{that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." as bellow.

NASB - Zec 11:13 - Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, {that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty {shekels} of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Knowing that you from time to time use the name "Jehovah", and also you like to quote the NIV, I have included two more versions of this verse.

ASV - Zec 11:13 - And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah.

NIV - Zec 11:13 - And the Lord said to me, Throw it to the potter”the handsome price that I was prized at by them! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

You will have noted, "at which I was valued by them.", and "that I was prized at by them", and "that I was prized at by them".

Surely this can only mean that it is Jehovah who was betrayed for "thirty shekels of silver", and therefore Jehovah and Jesus must be one and the same person?

If not, then the verse should have read, "that My Son was prized at by them".

Now what about

NKJV - Zec 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


NIV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

ESV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Note. "then they will look on Me whom they pierced", and "They will look on me, the one they have pierced", and, "when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

I do not see how it is possible to avoid the conclusion that the, "Me", "I", and "Him". are one and the same person? Note also that ESV, uses, "on me, on him whom they have pierced".

I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that when Paul wrote.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


He had in mind, Joel 2:32, three translations of which are given bellow.

NKJV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.


NIV - Joe 2:32 - And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

ESV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

In other words, Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt, was declaring that Jesus is God.

As I have said before, and will no doubt say again, don't try to understand it, just believe it, God has given you the faith to believe, so use it.

The human mind is totally incapable of comprehending the Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus, so don't try. Remember "Without faith, it is impossible to please God". Better rendered as "Without exercising faith".
Much of what you say is correct, but some adjustment is needed.

First of all this name "Jesus"... there was no such person, his name was "Yeshua". If you had walked up to him in Jerusalem in his lifetime and called him "Jesus" he would not have recognized the name. In fact it would have sounded very foreign to him, because there is no "J" in Hebrew or Aramaic or even Greek or Latin. "Jesus" has come to be the name that modern Christianity has used to refer to its [false] version of the Messiah "who came to free you from the bondage of the Law" and found a new religion called "Christianity". I see no reason to use a name that was not his, and is attached to theology that is dichotomous to his teaching. The true Messiah was Yeshua who was a Torah advocate, and the very Torah incarnate and who came to be the Messiah of Judaism.

Now lets look at this word "God"... this is especially important because the word itself is key to the discussion of whether or not Yeshua is "God".

The word "God" in English comes from the name of an old pagan god worshiped by the Anglo-Saxons and other old European tribal groups. The term "God" came from a false god that goes all the way back to the ancient Babylonians and Canaanites who was called in Canaanite (and Hebrew) "Gawd" spelled in the KJV as "Gad" meaning "good fortune". One of the titles of Baal (meaning "Lord") was "Baal Gad", "Baal Gawd" or "Baal God". "Baal" means "Lord" so "Baal God" means "The Lord God". When the Anglo-Saxons were "Christianized" they continued to worship "The Lord God" in Temples with Phallic Symbols on top (steeples) which they continued to call CIRCS or as we know them today "Churches". They even continued to celebrate "Easter" (Ishtar was the consort of Baal) each Spring.

So you state that "Jesus is God". I have to agree if we understand correctly that "Jesus" is the false version of Messiah created by Christendom that is the opposite of the True Messiah and came to "free" you from "bondage" to the Law and create a new Torah denying religion to replace the old one, then yes, that "Jesus" is Baal Gawd (The Lord God).

Now the English term "God" is generally used as an equivalent for the Hebrew Elohim (despite the true and original origin of the word "God")) so if the question is, is Yeshua the Messiah Elohim? then obviously the answer is yes. In Hebrew the word ELOHIM has very broad meaning, being used to apply not only to angels, but even to human judges. The real question you want top ask is "Is Yeshua YHWH" and I think it would be clarified "Is Messiah YHWH" since Yeshua had within him two aspects, a human aspect and a divine aspect (the Word incarnate).

Now the answer to this question is one of the deepest mysteries of the Scriptures.

I have treated this subject in detail at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/revelations-concerning...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-word-of-yhwh-revea...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-word-of-yhwh-revea...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-word-of-yhwh-revea...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-word-of-yhwh-revea...

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/deity-of-messiah
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/deity-of-messiah?id=21...

You should check out these two books on the subject:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-great-mystery-or-h...
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-middle-pillar-a-je...

Edwin Brain said:
Jesus is God.

Jesus is God, but He is also man at the same time. Have a look at Isaiah Ch 48 vs 12-16, but don't read the whole of v 16, just yet, read only, "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there" (ESV).

Now ask yourself, Who is speaking?, the answer can only be, the Lord our GOD, now read the rest of v 16, "And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.". It is clear then that the one speaking in the first part of this verse must be our Lord Jesus, and none other.. An expanded version follows.

Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.


Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. (NKJV).

Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking. "And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."

Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.

Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."

Could this verse I wonder be what Jesus had in mind when He said.

Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Now have a look at John Ch 8, verse 58. Here Jesus identifies Himself as "I AM", the two words are, "ego eimi", and are taken from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the OT made about 300 BC.

These two words are taken from Exodus Ch 3 v 14, where God told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel. I AM has sent me to you"... This is the most Sacred, and Holy name/description of the Lord our God it means "I HAVE BEEN WHAT I HAVE BEEN,I AM THAT/WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE". This Title was also understood by the Jews to mean "The perpetually self revealing all existent one".

It was considered so sacred by the Jews, that they were forbidden to pronounce it, when reading Scripture publicly.

There was no doubt in the minds of those who heard Jesus, that He was claiming to be God.

John 10:17-18. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Note. Only God can raise Himself back from the dead.

Who did Isaiah really see?

Isa 6:1 IN the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King,
The LORD of hosts."

John referring to this passage said.

Jhn 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
Jhn 12:38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"*
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
Jhn 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."*
Jhn 12:41 These things Isaiah said when* he saw His glory and spoke of Him

So then just who did Isaiah see?

Jhn 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
Jhn 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Have a look at the verses bellow, and my comments that follow.

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, Fear not, I am the first and the last,

When John worshiped the angel, at Rev 22:8, he was told not to do so, but to worship God.. It is abundantly clear that the person described at, Rev 1:12-16, is none other than Jesus Himself, who, you will note does, not rebuke him, but accepts john's worship, and goes on to say that He is, "the first and the last,".. This title, or if you prefer, this description is applicable only to Almighty God, the LORD, see the verses from Isaiah, bellow.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.


Now, Salvation.

Mat 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Jesus is the savior, but as, Isa 43:11, above says, "I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.", so they must both be the same, and therefore Jesus is God.


Now, what about, "John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!", It is possible of course that Thomas made a mistake, but if he did, why did Jesus not correct him, as the angel did at Rev 22:9,, remember, the very first example given above. Jesus accepted being referred to as, "My Lord and my God!", because that is exactly what He is, "My Lord and my God!".

It is clear from the Scripture passage bellow that, "thirty shekels of silver", is the price, or value of a dead slave. When Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
Matt 26:15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.. They were in effect saying that in their estimation, Jesus had about as much value as a dead slave. In other words, they were both insulting and contemptuous of him.

Ex 21:28 "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Ex 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
Ex 21:30 "If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him.
Ex 21:31 "Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.
Ex 21:32 "If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.


This contemptuous insult is reflected in our LORD's words, "{that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." as bellow.

NASB - Zec 11:13 - Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, {that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty {shekels} of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Knowing that you from time to time use the name "Jehovah", and also you like to quote the NIV, I have included two more versions of this verse.

ASV - Zec 11:13 - And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah.

NIV - Zec 11:13 - And the Lord said to me, Throw it to the potter”the handsome price that I was prized at by them! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

You will have noted, "at which I was valued by them.", and "that I was prized at by them", and "that I was prized at by them".

Surely this can only mean that it is Jehovah who was betrayed for "thirty shekels of silver", and therefore Jehovah and Jesus must be one and the same person?

If not, then the verse should have read, "that My Son was prized at by them".

Now what about

NKJV - Zec 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


NIV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

ESV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Note. "then they will look on Me whom they pierced", and "They will look on me, the one they have pierced", and, "when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

I do not see how it is possible to avoid the conclusion that the, "Me", "I", and "Him". are one and the same person? Note also that ESV, uses, "on me, on him whom they have pierced".

I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that when Paul wrote.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


He had in mind, Joel 2:32, three translations of which are given bellow.

NKJV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.


NIV - Joe 2:32 - And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

ESV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

In other words, Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt, was declaring that Jesus is God.

As I have said before, and will no doubt say again, don't try to understand it, just believe it, God has given you the faith to believe, so use it.

The human mind is totally incapable of comprehending the Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus, so don't try. Remember "Without faith, it is impossible to please God". Better rendered as "Without exercising faith".

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