Nazarene Space

with pagan holidays such as christmas easter,valentines day, halloween,etc... i always get the same response from my family when they ask why i dont observe these days..."its how you make it" or "just because it used to be pagan doesnt mean you have to look at that holiday that way"... how do i respond?

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I usually ask them, "Then couldn't it be said the same for the 2 guys at Lev 10? Most likely they probably made their fire holder kindling real nice".  Apparently what we decide to do apart from what we are instructed to do can be a dangerous practice.

Lev 10:1  And Naḏaḇ and Aḇihu, the sons of Aharon, each took his fire holder and put fire in it, and put incense on it, and brought strange fire before יהוה, which He had not commanded them.
Lev 10:2  And fire came out from יהוה and consumed them, and they died before יהוה.

  1. Its like meat offered to idols

While those responses are shallow and not thought out, all of the holidays in question are Christian. At what point does one start dishonouring Christ with such "...foolish controversies and arguments about the law...". The Church is an organic entity. It is alive, not stagnant. Things change over time as God's grace fills the world. All the Nations are said to come to worship the One True God - it does not say that all nations are to become Jews. These holidays arise out of non-Jews accepting the True God, and bringing their culture and custom to Him. It can be noted that these customs are not identical church-wide. Hallowsmas is more prominant in countires of Celtic influence - in the East, it is actually celebrated as part of the Paschal cycle instead of falling on November 1. There is actually evidence that certain pagan celebrations on or near 25 December were placed in order to obscure the Christian festival (remember, Christianity used to be illegal, and Rome did not like that so many were being drawn to it). Also, it was known by the Fathers that picked the date that Jesus was not born on that date. It was a symbolic date. Saint Valentine's Day is the feast day of a New Covenant Priest who refused to obey Roman Pagan law, and was beheaded for it (yep - literally a festival celebrating someone's defiance of Paganism in favour of the True God). "Easter" (only called such by English and German speakers, the majority of languages use some variation of Pascha/Pesach), called Pascha in Greek, (that's right, we just call it Passover) is definitely not pagan. The date of the Feast of Feasts is set as the first Sunday after the full moon following the Spring Equinox. Pesach (the old testament one) is always the first full moon after the Equinox. i.e. Pascha is the Sunday that falls during old testament Passover (because Jesus rose from the tomb on the Sunday during Passover). 

All of the Old Testament is a shadow of the new. Why strive for the shadow when the object of the shadow has been given to us freely?

An example, since I'm here:

The Feast Days: the Church got rid of them? False. 

Rosh Hashanah - Christian New Year on September 1

Yom Kippur - Feast of the Holy Cross

Sukkes - Feast of the Transfiguration

Pesach/Firstfruits - Holy Week/Passion Week (in which is Holy Thursday of the Institution of the Eucharist, Holy Friday of our Lord's saving Passion, Holy Saturday of our Lord's descent into Hades/Sheol, and the Feast of Feasts, The Holy Sunday of Pascha - the Bright Resurrection of our Lord)

Shavues - Pentecost, the fiftieth day after Pascha when we celebrate the decent of the Holy Ghost, which happened on Shavues, in Greek called Pentecost. It's even customary to decorate the Temple (Christian Temple, that is) with greenery just like you do in the Synagogue. 

WHERE ARE THE BRIGHT BOYS IN THIS FORUM? why do you allow this post from a catholic to go unreplied for thirty days?

===============

While those responses are shallow and not thought out, all of the holidays in question are Christian.

-they WERE NOT christian, and your CHRIST did not celebrate them



At what point does one start dishonouring Christ with such "...foolish controversies and arguments about the law...".

-is anyone talking about law here? I think none. ,how come you canon laws are more forceful than the Torah of G-d inside the church?



The Church is an organic entity. It is alive, not stagnant. Things change over time as God's grace fills the world.

-certainly it is not a license to contravene Divine Statutes. does it?



All the Nations are said to come to worship the One True God - it does not say that all nations are to become Jews.

-CORRECT.



These holidays arise out of non-Jews accepting the True God, and bringing their culture and custom to Him.

-how many virgins lose their virginities at Valentines Day? .has your church ever done to prevent that? ,look what morally poor customs have developed wrapped around that none-sense through the centuries, and yet preaching this falsehood (st. valentino, did not exist) is from the pulpits of cathedrals.



It can be noted that these customs are not identical church-wide. Hallowsmas is more prominant in countires of Celtic influence - in the East, it is actually celebrated as part of the Paschal cycle instead of falling on November 1.

-PESACH NEVER HAPPENS ON NOVEMBER, NAY OCTOBER-DECEMBER



Pesach (the old testament one) is always the first full moon after the Equinox. i.e. Pascha is the Sunday that falls during old testament Passover (because Jesus rose from the tomb on the Sunday during Passover). 

-Pesach is all about emancipation from slavery to freedom, Egypt to Aretz, as a MASTERPIECE of Hashem. ,there is no “old” or “new”.if latter exists it is another invention from the pulpits of bright theologians who have nothing to do for employment but work and imagine things to please their cardinals and bishops.



All of the Old Testament is a shadow of the new. Why strive for the shadow when the object of the shadow has been given to us freely?

-ask G-d why He allowed punishment where millions of His people died in the hands of goyim since the days of Pharaoh (Fuhrer) to WW II, for no meaningful reason at all... JUST FOR VIOLATING A SHADOW AND NOT FOR WHAT IT TRUE.

 

Thanks for taking up the slack around here Beryl. I Good logical thoughts. I would however liked to see a more detailed answer concerning "all nations (goyim) becoming "Jews".  Correct in one sense, I would agree, in another I would not as we have discussed here in the past. Still agree totally as you seemed to elude in your above response?

.

actually i tend to avoid discussion in detail concerning what you said "all nations becoming Jews"

because there are various ways of taking the letters of Sha'ul which is mainly the source of textual

basis. i perceive the owner of this forum is toward that direction and many others here.

i realize that it is futile to argue toward either opposing beliefs concerning the issue since in truth

and fact the jewish life is indeed very difficult to follow or live by, else, for any one at his whim

having jumped into it might later only seek ways to dilute the tight halachot which is the very attitude our

rabbis tried to avoid happening.

suffice it then for us to keep Shaul's advice: upon receiving the Faith and Baptism (which, i think

is the substance and form of salvation) a Jew shall remain as Jew and the Gentile as Gentile.

Shaul must have heeded the doctrine of the Twelve concerning this. however, Yaacov (James)

has expressed the "open-ness" of the shuls in every shabbat: this means, for those who can

take the burden of the law let him do so.

to my simple mind a gentile may have the option therefore to practice either Rabbinic or Kara'im flavor

whichever fits to his taste. but this one, notzrism (nazarene) flavor is taking up a trend, i think

it is better for them to remain and develop rather this neo-christian judaism in the auspices of

James Trimm, after all, the way i see his kind of halacha he is toward approximating rabbinic standards

although i know that should he go orthodox many here shall fall back.

that being said: shomer mitzvot is a matter of "gift", just like talents given by Hashem to any one Jew or gentile.

only the Jews however are under obligation because he/she has no other option left for him to choose:

the law has become a matter of duty out of his birth, not out of his choice.

the decision was already given at the foot of har sinai by his parents, so whatever was decreed by Hashem

there, along that journey, all jews by birth are bound to it until now (including the curses) chash veshalom!

the gentiles enjoy freedom. i sometimes feel jealous of their liberty.

as for me... well, dayinu.......



Mikha El said:

Thanks for taking up the slack around here Beryl. I Good logical thoughts. I would however liked to see a more detailed answer concerning "all nations (goyim) becoming "Jews".  Correct in one sense, I would agree, in another I would not as we have discussed here in the past. Still agree totally as you seemed to elude in your above response?

 beryl glad to see you back , always enjoy your post . as to bright boys most of the time I just don't want to argue with these guys anymore ! It sucks the life right out of me . at any rate , never said I was bright . as my Dad always said (  if your gonna be dumb you better be tough )  well I'm sorta tough ha ha !  and maybe not so bright

hi rick, glad talking with you again for..... say... years? hahaha, yea

those were the nights of nice discussions here with interesting people too.

how's your halachah now? hope is well with and yours. are you in the synagogue now?



Rick said:

 beryl glad to see you back , always enjoy your post . as to bright boys most of the time I just don't want to argue with these guys anymore ! It sucks the life right out of me . at any rate , never said I was bright . as my Dad always said (  if your gonna be dumb you better be tough )  well I'm sorta tough ha ha !  and maybe not so bright

Beryl,

Can we assume that since the thread starter is no longer adding to the discussion it's okay to deviate from the threads main topic? If not, please ignore my response.

I again agree with most of what you stated. It's when you say things like,

"Quote=Beryl" ...in truth and fact the jewish life is indeed very difficult to follow or live by, else, for any one at his whim

having jumped into it might later only seek ways to dilute the tight halachot which is the very attitude our

rabbis tried to avoid happening."

...it almost sounds like your of the opinion that the "tight halachot" is always scripturaly correct and never to be questioned. Obviously we both know that perception is false. Not only from our own life experiences but also from the Word here...

Mat 11:28  “Come to Me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I shall give you rest.
Mat 11:29  “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall find rest for your beings.
Mat 11:30  “For My yoke is gentle and My burden is light.”

One other thing... Regarding all "Jews" being "bound to it for life" because of a decision "they had no say so in", ...I disagree. Every human has a choice to make concerning the book we/many SAY we/they believe. If a person has not made that definitive choice they are not/cannot be a true "Jew" IMO.


"Can we assume that since the thread starter is no longer adding to the discussion it's okay to deviate from the threads main topic?"

--it's okay so long as it is fruitful and... i have enough time.


"...it almost sounds like your of the opinion that the "tight halachot" is always scripturaly correct and never to be questioned. Obviously we both know that perception is false."

--objection to the word "always".
 
  actually we do not have that mentality as to think that "tight" (not the lax) is always right.
  if you look into this particular issue fairly you will rather see that our position is the other way around.
  e.g. note how the rabbis resolve conflicts toward the rulings of Hilel rather than the choking rules of Shammai, yet
  despite this rabbinic tendency, a messianic jew for instance, will notice that Yeshua at times affirm the position of Shammai rather than the laxity of Hilel.
 
  thus, when i say "tight halachot" i mean there are doctrinal matters that is no longer subject to private decision but a matter of settled halacha, e.g. tsitzit, ma'ashir, tzedakah, chagim, barachot, etcetera. things that are inspite being
  compulsory are attended with minute details that may later (discourage) offend the convert's sense of freedom and convenience.
 
  if it is a matter of interpreting doctrines i'd rather describe the true situation that there are things

made easy by rabbinic  judaism while there are things made harder by the preachings of the church.

either way there are challenges for the professor.


"Mat 11:28  “Come to Me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I shall give you rest.
Mat 11:29  “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall find rest for your beings.
Mat 11:30  “For My yoke is gentle and My burden is light.”

--can you explain to me "what" is your take of these pasuqim?


"Regarding all "Jews" being "bound to it for life" because of a decision "they had no say so in", ...I disagree."


--as i have said you have the right to disagree.
  where the natural jew has none.

 "Every human has a choice to make concerning the book we/many SAY we/they believe. If a person has not made that definitive choice they are not/cannot be a true "Jew" "


--i am sorry i did not get what exactly you mean here, it appears very broad to my simple mind.
  if  you can make it more explicit i thank you.
 


 

quote=Beryl

things that are inspite being compulsory are attended with minute details that may later (discourage) offend the convert's sense of freedom and convenience.

Sad but true. I find this is the case frequently, especially concerning the wearing of tsitzit. I suppose it comes down to a matter of the amount of "faith"/emunah a male person can muster within themselves. I know this was the case for me. ...Was I prepared to give an accurate account to anyone that would question my motive? This was my original concern. Now I just ask every TSA person that asks me what/why those cords hanging on me, ..."Do you read your bible"? :)  

quote=Beryl

--can you explain to me "what" is your take of these pasuqim?

The verses are IMO a very compassionate call to the lost and confused despite what difficulties they/we encumbrance as they/we "progress".  

quote=Beryl

as i have said you have the right to disagree.
  where the natural jew has none.

This reply can be added to the one following. IMO, the phrase/term "natural jew" isn't valid.  

Continued from above...(quote=Mikha El)

"Every human has a choice to make concerning the book we/many SAY we/they believe. If a person has not made that definitive choice they are not/cannot be a true "Jew" "

quote=Beryl
--i am sorry i did not get what exactly you mean here, it appears very broad to my simple mind.
  if  you can make it more explicit i thank you.

Just as the decisions were made at Sinai then, a determined one is required now, IMO. That absolute resolution should be abundantly evident in the converts life and demeanor.  To SAY someone is a true "Jew" requires adherence to this revelation: 

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Elohim and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah.

It's not one or the other here, it's both...

well, at least i apparently understand this time that when you said

"Every human has a choice to make concerning the book" you meant:

"That absolute resolution should be abundantly evident in the converts life and demeanor. 

To SAY someone is a true "Jew" requires adherence to this revelation: [viz. Rev. 12:17]"

you have the right to your own opinion. i respect it.

shanah tovah umetuqah!

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