Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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"Hello All - This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion."

thanks Jim. i made this request because it was too off-topic from the thread opened by sister BTz. i hope everybody will participate in this very interesting topic that you have hinted from there. as you see, Chag Pesach is not a minor but a fundamental concept that must be carried over by many from ancient Judaism into messianic Judaism.

so allow me here to make short replies based on my personal perspective only.

"The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan. They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st."

if we say observance the way it was in days of 2nd temple, yes, we don't observe it anymore on account of the absence of Temple. the halachic prescriptions concerning the corban pesach cannot be performed anymore. therefore: since The Merciful has withdrawn the temple from our midst it is understood that He withdrew every valid means for His people to observe some portions of Torah halachot.

but we continue to observe Pesach in the essence of its sacramentality. this means we keep the sanctity of Nissan 14 all the way up to 21 (and 22 in diaspora) every month of Nissan every year without intervention from the 70 CE.

" 4. These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. Leviticus 23.4-6 I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:

http://www.lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything"

you have quoted Leviticus and there is no error on it

"In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th."

we cannot go back to mitzrayim again to repeat their actions that night, and rameses wouldn't be there anymore too. rather, in fact the commandment of of this precept is not as much to *spatially repeat* the event but as a *memorial* (zekaron) --vehaya hayom hazeh lakhem lezekoron. the ancient sages have rightly kept every halachic point concerning this zekaron, a practice which was velidated by Messhiah when He celebrated with our people without legal objection.

let me object to the slaughtering at 13th: the practice we had was to slaughter it about (between) 7.5th-9th hour of 14th after the tamid sacrifice.

" And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33.3"

a matter of scripture. ok.

"In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover."

objection:

He entered the holy city on the tenth (10th) day of nissan, the day when Jews by halacha were to select (prime) the seh for the corban pesach and keep it (kosher) until 14th: but in the 'erev Pesach, i.e. between 14th and 15th, He was still sitting among the disciples to re-institute (reinforcing freedom from egypt with ultimate freedom from sin) the torah precept on Seder, thus, He cannot die the day before.

on the other hand, He was not a samaritan nay a heretic to hold a non-halachic seder. if He did this the accusation against Him before the High Priest would certainly have included that heresy. but as you see there was none because they did not see anything unlawful in His actions.

" 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. John 19.14-15"

it is what the greek student of shlach Yochann wrote. ok.

"The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover"

it was feast of Passover that He died.

"27. Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew. 28. Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. 29. Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? John 18.27-29"

who's they?

-they are the people who have made the necessary preparation for the Seder that night but have not yet finally eaten the halachic requirement of their share of corban pesach which is the last portion of the meal. maybe, as the commotion thronged within the city, their meal was interrupted, or that upon seeing being a friend or familiar to Him they have need follow Yeshua.

why not enter the judgment hall?

-because they were to enter into the judgment hall of the roman Pilate. an enclosure that is certainly considered *unclean* ritually speaking, which might disqualify a Jew from eating the corban pesach if he has not yet done so that same evening.

"Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong. Many Blessings - Jim"

i cannot say you are wrong because we do not belong to the same dogma and we do not share common teachers. however, i have merely posted above my objections.

blessings.
Hi Beryl -

The "they" who would not enter the judgment Hall was the Priests and Scribes, and devout Jews who accused Jesus, they were going to eat The Passover that night and did not want to be defiled.

It wasn't The Passover, it was the day of preparation:

13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19.13+14

Regarding the "even" when the lambs were slaughtered The Jewish Encyclopedia says that during The Second Temple period this was from "after noon until night fall" - there was, accoding to Josepus, apx 250,000 sheep to slaughter so it took awhile.

We can't slaughter a lamb, but we can take the bread and the wine on the night He was arrested, that is what The LORD taught Paul, and that is what Paul taught the Christians:

23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11.23-25

If he died at the end of The Passover it was at the wrong time - the lamb had to be slain at the very beginning so the blood would be on the door by night fall - they were not to leave their homes that night.

If they killed the lamb at the end of the 14th how could they stay in their homes on the night of the 14th - it would already be in the past.

And they traveled on the night of the 15th.

The lamb was slaughtered at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th.

They stayed inside the night of the 14th, gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt the night of the 15th.

The Jewish Encyclopedia also says the leavene was removed on the night of the 13th.

Now this is done on the night of the 14th because The Passover is not observed at all - only The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Many Blessings -

Jim
okay Jim. for the sake of discussion:

"The "they" who would not enter the judgment Hall was the Priests and Scribes, and devout Jews who accused Jesus, they were going to eat The Passover that night and did not want to be defiled."

difinitely not the Priests and Scribes.

to allow this interpretation could pose two obstacles:

a) no proceedings can be taken until the leaders (judges) enters; b) the High Priest would have not seated in the council, would have not heard, and would have not torn the garment in objection to what appeared them blasphemous;

there was no obstacle because the high priest and their counsels -the scribes- were there. in fact the four gospels testify to wit:

$ there was an assembly of council Mt.26:57, Mk.14:53, Lk.22:66 $ there was procedural inquest as required in halachot Mt.26:59, Mk.14:55, Lk.22:70, Jn.18:19
$ that they were seated in the council and took turns to stand Mt.26:62, Mk.14:60, Jn.18:22

$ that the High Priest rent his garment (an act punishable if not in the exercise of sacred duty) Mt.26:65, Mk.14:63

$ that there was an official judgment to be acted upon thereafter Mt.26:66, Mk.14:64, Lk.22:71, Jn.18:31

the high priest, elders and scribes, and the people were assembled, they were there: the place was kosher, nothing to worry of getting defiled for him who has not yet eaten his korban that night.

now, confusion comes from John 18:28--
"Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.KJV, underscore supplied.
$ "unto the hall of judgment" -here the author, aware or not about the risk posed to being defiled, refers the judgment hall of the roman governor. the Jews wouldn't get in because the space belongs (and thus maintained) by a non-Jew, and there are many ways that could render one's purity being defiled before he can eat the corban pesach that night. for this, instead of waiting inside, the governor himself went out to hear the Jews cf. Jn.18:29.
$ "and it was early" -this is where the author (the hearer of Yochann) might have not understood well a certain Jewish point which, for our benefit he, the author, just wrote down saying it was early. this, doesn't mean an early daytime, this only means that *earlier than the usual time when people gather for something other than Seder* because it was the Erev Pesach.
one thing, if granted that it was 13th of nissan, why would the author even talk about they might eat of passover when such mitzva is not yet relevant in that evening?

"It wasn't The Passover, it was the day of preparation:"

so it was the Passover night, as the author of John was already talking about *eating* the meal.

"13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19.13+14"

i do not blame the author of John (the hearer of John the apostle) if he misses some minor points because being a greek in ephesus we should not expect much about jewish-matters from him.

there is no such thing as preparation day of the passover. Pesach begins in the 10th of Nissan when we have to secure a select lamb without blemish, about 13 months old and keep it for the 14th for corban, and about the 7th hour of this day we bedikat chametz and remain pure as we 'takus' (kill) the seh in the assembly and eat of it immediately that night that nothing should be left the next day. there is no tradition that calls a day as preparation of the passover.

the only "preparation day" we know of is the day before shabbath. in fact even the author of John reverses his position (maybe depending in what he heard from John) in another passage when he called the same day as "preparation... as the sabbath was high", this is in line with what the other gospel authors testify, Mk.15:42, Lk. 23:54 & Mt.27:62.

(please do not misconstrue my statement. i do hold the Gospel of John with respect as one of reliable accounts concerning Yeshua's life and works, only that, it contains latent indications that it was not written personally by Yochann but by a non-jew)

"Regarding the "even" when the lambs were slaughtered The Jewish Encyclopedia says that during The Second Temple period this was from "after noon until night fall" - there was, accoding to Josepus, apx 250,000 sheep to slaughter so it took awhile."

yes.

"We can't slaughter a lamb,..."

why.....?

...because there is no more temple to accomodate this sacrificial system and no more priests to administer them. there are more reasons, halachic and mystical, why slaughtering a lamb is no longer relevant today.

"... but we can take the bread and the wine on the night He was arrested, that is what The LORD taught Paul, and that is what Paul taught the Christians: 23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11.23-25"

yes.. Paul and the christians... not Paul-an-the-Jews.

"If he died at the end of The Passover it was at the wrong time - the lamb had to be slain at the very beginning so the blood would be on the door by night fall - they were not to leave their homes that night."

as i have said we don't leave our homes every Pesach eve. what was commanded by G-d was the zikaron, a memorial.

"If they killed the lamb at the end of the 14th how could they stay in their homes on the night of the 14th - it would already be in the past. And they traveled on the night of the 15th."
just a reminder in case you forgot that the end of 14th is the sundown of 14th; the beginning of 15th is the night (first two stars appear) after the sunset of 14th.

what you mean as night of the 15th i understand very much as the erev Pesach, the Seder night, inside the house, with roasted lamb, matzot, karpas, with girded loins and staves on hand: they are ready to go but not yet going. it was a night different from other nights.

in the morning of that day: "And it came to pass the selfsame day that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts." Exo. 12:51 JPS.

"The lamb was slaughtered at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th."

on the contrary:

"And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." Exodus 12:6 KJV

in saying in the evening is it a case when the *evening* of 15th has already come, that it is to be said as *beginning* of 15th? ... the answer is no: it is still the 14th but not 15th.

indeed this subject is very difficult so i would rather have the rabbis say the words to you in what they understood from the Scriptures:

Mishnah: The afternoon Tamid is slaughtered at eight and a half hour and is offered at nine and a half hours. On the eve of Passover it is slaughtered at seven and a half hour and offered at eight and a half hours, whether it is a weekday or the Shabbat. If the eve of Pesach fell on Shabbat eve [Friday], it is slaughtered at six and a half hours and offered at seven and a half hours, and the Passover offering after it. Gemara: Whence do we know it? — Said R. Joshua b. Levi, Because Scripture saith, The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer between the two evenings: insert it between the two ‘evenings’, [which gives] two and a half hours before and two and a half hours after and one hour for its preparation....The duty of the tamid properly [begins] from when the evening shadows begin to fall. What is the reason? Because Scripture saith, ‘between the evenings’, [meaning] from the time that the sun commences to decline in the west. Therefore on other days of the year, when there are vows and freewill offerings, in connection with which the Divine Law states, [and he shall burn] upon it the fat of the peace-offerings [he-shelamim], and a Master said, ‘upon it’ complete [shalem] all the sacrifices, we therefore postpone it two hours and sacrifice it at eight and a half hours. [But] on the eve of Passover, when there is the Passover offering after it, we advance it one hour and sacrifice it at seven and a half hours. When the eve of Passover falls on the eve of the Sabbath, so that there is the roasting too [to be done], for it does not override the Sabbath, we let it stand on its own law, [viz.,] at six and a half hours. [Talmud, Pesachim 58a]

beyn ha arbayim falls between the afternoon and the following evening.

"They stayed inside the night of the 14th, gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt the night of the 15th. The Jewish Encyclopedia also says the leavene was removed on the night of the 13th. Now this is done on the night of the 14th because The Passover is not observed at all - only The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days. Many Blessings - Jim

history and tradition have it that the Jews observed Pesachim and chag Matzah.

blessings.


Jim Wright said:
Hi Beryl -
The "they" who would not enter the judgment Hall was the Priests and Scribes, and devout Jews who accused Jesus, they were going to eat The Passover that night and did not want to be defiled. It wasn't The Passover, it was the day of preparation: 13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19.13+14 Regarding the "even" when the lambs were slaughtered The Jewish Encyclopedia says that during The Second Temple period this was from "after noon until night fall" - there was, accoding to Josepus, apx 250,000 sheep to slaughter so it took awhile.
We can't slaughter a lamb, but we can take the bread and the wine on the night He was arrested, that is what The LORD taught Paul, and that is what Paul taught the Christians:

23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11.23-25

If he died at the end of The Passover it was at the wrong time - the lamb had to be slain at the very beginning so the blood would be on the door by night fall - they were not to leave their homes that night.

If they killed the lamb at the end of the 14th how could they stay in their homes on the night of the 14th - it would already be in the past.

And they traveled on the night of the 15th.

The lamb was slaughtered at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th.

They stayed inside the night of the 14th, gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt the night of the 15th.

The Jewish Encyclopedia also says the leavene was removed on the night of the 13th.

Now this is done on the night of the 14th because The Passover is not observed at all - only The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Many Blessings -

Jim
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?
Hi J. Jury -

Yes The Passover is to be eaten in the beginning of the 14th.

The days always start in darkness.

The Israelites traveled on the night of the 15th.

On the night of the 14th the Israelites were to stay in their homes the entire night.

The 14th is not observed anymore only The Feast of Unleavened Bread - The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees.

What was origianally supposed be 8 days = Passover 1 day + Feaast of Unleavened Bread 7 days is now one 7 day Holy Day which they call The Passover dispite the fact The Passover (The 14th ) is not observed.

In times past the leavened was removed on the night of the 13th so the home would not be defiled by leaven on the 14th - now this is done on the night of the 14th - the home has already been defiled -

This is a major sin for which scripture says a person is "cut off" for.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?
Thanks for the clarification.

Just as an FYI- this is exactly how I have been keeping Passover since day one, yet you arrogantly and ignorantly accused me otherwise in another thread.

Without even knowing me, you have wrongly accused me of this, yet I do this exact thing as Scripture prescribes. But you don't take the time to listen, and instead just want to correct the behavior of others (in a place where you don't even know the people you are accusing).

Let me tell you something "buddy", knowledge speaks- wisdom listens. You are not the only one who correctly understands God's appointed times.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
Yes The Passover is to be eaten in the beginning of the 14th. The days always start in darkness.

The Israelites traveled on the night of the 15th.

On the night of the 14th the Israelites were to stay in their homes the entire night.

The 14th is not observed anymore only The Feast of Unleavened Bread - The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees.

What was origianally supposed be 8 days = Passover 1 day + Feaast of Unleavened Bread 7 days is now one 7 day Holy Day which they call The Passover dispite the fact The Passover (The 14th ) is not observed.

In times past the leavened was removed on the night of the 13th so the home would not be defiled by leaven on the 14th - now this is done on the night of the 14th - the home has already been defiled -

This is a major sin for which scripture says a person is "cut off" for.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?
Hi Beryl -

Regarding the incident at The Judgment Hall - I think you are confusing the two different "tribunals" Jesus went through.

Before He was taken to The Judgment Hall (which was Pilot's resisdence) Jesus had already undergone an illegal trial by The Sanhedrin, this is where The High Priest tore his garment, then He was taken before Pilot early in the day by The Jews.

It was illegal beause it was done at night and there was not two or three credible witnesses against Him.

They found him guilty when He spoke the truth and said "I AM the living God" the correct translation of the term translated "I AM" and when sun up came they took Jesus to the gentile leader - Pilot at his residence = The Judgment Hall.

14. Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
15. And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.
16. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
17. Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
18. And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.
19. The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
20. Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
21. Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
22. And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
23. Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
24. Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
25. And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
26. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
27. Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
28. Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29. Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30. They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. John 18.14-30

After the High Priest tore his garment and found Christ guilty for saying He was The Living God they sent Jesus to The Judgment Hall (Pilot's residence) - there is no reason to think it was not Priests and Scribes in fact scripture "They" led Him to The Hall of Judgement - for they wanted Jesus dead, sending mere Temple Guards or just some common Jews woud not accomplish this goal, they would not enter the gentile building so the could eat the Passover that night.

They (the same people who had the illegal trial and led Him to The Hall of Judgment) got the Pilot to come outside because they would not enter so the could eat the Passover lamb that night - it was still early in the day the lambs were not even being slaughtered yet.

1. When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2. And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Matthew 27.1+2

1. And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
2. And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
3. And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
4. And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
5. But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled. Mark 15.1-5

1. And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2. And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.
3. And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
4. Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.
5. And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.
6. When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean.
7. And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.
8. And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
9. Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
10. And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him. Luke 23.1-10

This was obviously The Priests and Scribes who had illegaly tried Jesus during the night before - and all 4 gospels agree.

They would not enter the residence beause they did not want to be defiled - they got Pilot to come out to The Pavement:

Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? John 18.29

It was at sunup - when the rooster crowed for the third time - that was when they took Him there.

John was not Greek - none of the Apostles was Greek - where do you get this from?

And all the books of the New Testament were written in Aramaic, the language of the region, then translated to Greek.

It was the preparation for the Passover , the day the leavening must be removed in the beginning of and the lamb slain in the very end of - the 13th of Nissan - from The Jewish Encyclopedia:

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight, though it was not necessary to examine by candle-light places that were open to the sunlight. Study was suspended in favor of this duty of inspecting holes and corners. Minute regulations were devised for the inspection of holes midway between houses, but precautions were taken not to arouse suspicions of witchcraft in the minds of non-Jewish neighbors. Certain places, where the likelihood of finding ḥameẓ was infinitesimal, were exempt (see "Yad," l.c. ii.).
(see image) Cloth Used for Covering Passover Dish.(In the possession of Von Wilmersdörffer, Munich.)
(see image) Seder Feast and Accompanying Passover Preparations.'(From Bodenschatz, "Kirchliche Verfassung," 1748.)In practise this "bediḳat ḥameẓ" was effected as follows: As soon as night (on the 13th) had completely set in, the father of the household ("ba'al ha-bayit") lighted a plain wax taper, took a spoon and a brush, or three or four entire feathers, and, after having deposited a piece of bread in some noticeable place, as on a window-sill, to mark the beginning of the search, made the complete round of the house and gathered up all the leavened bread that was in it.

The Jews no longer remove the leaven on the 13th - they do this on the 14th.

If a person does not preparations on the 13th they will be transgressing by having leaven in the home on the 14th.
This is a transgression of God's Law - The Passover is to be an unleavened day and then starts The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 additional days and the lamb is to be eaten the night of the 14th - not the night of the 15th as is done now.

The Israelites killed the lamb at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th - stayed in their homes and ate the lamb that night = the 14th.

And they left Egypt on the night of the 15th.

Scripure is very clear.

And the death of Christ was a perfect repesentation of the exodus.

And the jews do not remove the leaven on the night of the 13th anymore - they do this on the night of the 14th.

The Passover has been eliminated and only The Feast of Unleavened Bread is now observed.

And The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees, and the Jewish scholars realize the The Passover, the night of the 14th is when the death angel went over Egypt, not the 15th - they call it the fast of the firstborn.

Blessings -

Jim



beryl etanah said:
okay Jim. for the sake of discussion:

"The "they" who would not enter the judgment Hall was the Priests and Scribes, and devout Jews who accused Jesus, they were going to eat The Passover that night and did not want to be defiled."

difinitely not the Priests and Scribes.

to allow this interpretation could pose two obstacles:

a) no proceedings can be taken until the leaders (judges) enters; b) the High Priest would have not seated in the council, would have not heard, and would have not torn the garment in objection to what appeared them blasphemous;

there was no obstacle because the high priest and their counsels -the scribes- were there. in fact the four gospels testify to wit:

$ there was an assembly of council Mt.26:57, Mk.14:53, Lk.22:66 $ there was procedural inquest as required in halachot Mt.26:59, Mk.14:55, Lk.22:70, Jn.18:19
$ that they were seated in the council and took turns to stand Mt.26:62, Mk.14:60, Jn.18:22

$ that the High Priest rent his garment (an act punishable if not in the exercise of sacred duty) Mt.26:65, Mk.14:63

$ that there was an official judgment to be acted upon thereafter Mt.26:66, Mk.14:64, Lk.22:71, Jn.18:31

the high priest, elders and scribes, and the people were assembled, they were there: the place was kosher, nothing to worry of getting defiled for him who has not yet eaten his korban that night.

now, confusion comes from John 18:28--
"Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.KJV, underscore supplied.
$ "unto the hall of judgment" -here the author, aware or not about the risk posed to being defiled, refers the judgment hall of the roman governor. the Jews wouldn't get in because the space belongs (and thus maintained) by a non-Jew, and there are many ways that could render one's purity being defiled before he can eat the corban pesach that night. for this, instead of waiting inside, the governor himself went out to hear the Jews cf. Jn.18:29.
$ "and it was early" -this is where the author (the hearer of Yochann) might have not understood well a certain Jewish point which, for our benefit he, the author, just wrote down saying it was early. this, doesn't mean an early daytime, this only means that *earlier than the usual time when people gather for something other than Seder* because it was the Erev Pesach.
one thing, if granted that it was 13th of nissan, why would the author even talk about they might eat of passover when such mitzva is not yet relevant in that evening?

"It wasn't The Passover, it was the day of preparation:"

so it was the Passover night, as the author of John was already talking about *eating* the meal.

"13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19.13+14"

i do not blame the author of John (the hearer of John the apostle) if he misses some minor points because being a greek in ephesus we should not expect much about jewish-matters from him.

there is no such thing as preparation day of the passover. Pesach begins in the 10th of Nissan when we have to secure a select lamb without blemish, about 13 months old and keep it for the 14th for corban, and about the 7th hour of this day we bedikat chametz and remain pure as we 'takus' (kill) the seh in the assembly and eat of it immediately that night that nothing should be left the next day. there is no tradition that calls a day as preparation of the passover.

the only "preparation day" we know of is the day before shabbath. in fact even the author of John reverses his position (maybe depending in what he heard from John) in another passage when he called the same day as "preparation... as the sabbath was high", this is in line with what the other gospel authors testify, Mk.15:42, Lk. 23:54 & Mt.27:62.

(please do not misconstrue my statement. i do hold the Gospel of John with respect as one of reliable accounts concerning Yeshua's life and works, only that, it contains latent indications that it was not written personally by Yochann but by a non-jew)

"Regarding the "even" when the lambs were slaughtered The Jewish Encyclopedia says that during The Second Temple period this was from "after noon until night fall" - there was, accoding to Josepus, apx 250,000 sheep to slaughter so it took awhile."

yes.

"We can't slaughter a lamb,..."

why.....?

...because there is no more temple to accomodate this sacrificial system and no more priests to administer them. there are more reasons, halachic and mystical, why slaughtering a lamb is no longer relevant today.

"... but we can take the bread and the wine on the night He was arrested, that is what The LORD taught Paul, and that is what Paul taught the Christians: 23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11.23-25"

yes.. Paul and the christians... not Paul-an-the-Jews.

"If he died at the end of The Passover it was at the wrong time - the lamb had to be slain at the very beginning so the blood would be on the door by night fall - they were not to leave their homes that night."

as i have said we don't leave our homes every Pesach eve. what was commanded by G-d was the zikaron, a memorial.

"If they killed the lamb at the end of the 14th how could they stay in their homes on the night of the 14th - it would already be in the past. And they traveled on the night of the 15th."
just a reminder in case you forgot that the end of 14th is the sundown of 14th; the beginning of 15th is the night (first two stars appear) after the sunset of 14th.

what you mean as night of the 15th i understand very much as the erev Pesach, the Seder night, inside the house, with roasted lamb, matzot, karpas, with girded loins and staves on hand: they are ready to go but not yet going. it was a night different from other nights.

in the morning of that day: "And it came to pass the selfsame day that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts." Exo. 12:51 JPS.

"The lamb was slaughtered at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th."

on the contrary:

"And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." Exodus 12:6 KJV

in saying in the evening is it a case when the *evening* of 15th has already come, that it is to be said as *beginning* of 15th? ... the answer is no: it is still the 14th but not 15th.

indeed this subject is very difficult so i would rather have the rabbis say the words to you in what they understood from the Scriptures:

Mishnah: The afternoon Tamid is slaughtered at eight and a half hour and is offered at nine and a half hours. On the eve of Passover it is slaughtered at seven and a half hour and offered at eight and a half hours, whether it is a weekday or the Shabbat. If the eve of Pesach fell on Shabbat eve [Friday], it is slaughtered at six and a half hours and offered at seven and a half hours, and the Passover offering after it. Gemara: Whence do we know it? — Said R. Joshua b. Levi, Because Scripture saith, The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer between the two evenings: insert it between the two ‘evenings’, [which gives] two and a half hours before and two and a half hours after and one hour for its preparation....The duty of the tamid properly [begins] from when the evening shadows begin to fall. What is the reason? Because Scripture saith, ‘between the evenings’, [meaning] from the time that the sun commences to decline in the west. Therefore on other days of the year, when there are vows and freewill offerings, in connection with which the Divine Law states, [and he shall burn] upon it the fat of the peace-offerings [he-shelamim], and a Master said, ‘upon it’ complete [shalem] all the sacrifices, we therefore postpone it two hours and sacrifice it at eight and a half hours. [But] on the eve of Passover, when there is the Passover offering after it, we advance it one hour and sacrifice it at seven and a half hours. When the eve of Passover falls on the eve of the Sabbath, so that there is the roasting too [to be done], for it does not override the Sabbath, we let it stand on its own law, [viz.,] at six and a half hours. [Talmud, Pesachim 58a]

beyn ha arbayim falls between the afternoon and the following evening.

"They stayed inside the night of the 14th, gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt the night of the 15th. The Jewish Encyclopedia also says the leavene was removed on the night of the 13th. Now this is done on the night of the 14th because The Passover is not observed at all - only The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days. Many Blessings - Jim

history and tradition have it that the Jews observed Pesachim and chag Matzah.

blessings.


Jim Wright said:
Hi Beryl -
The "they" who would not enter the judgment Hall was the Priests and Scribes, and devout Jews who accused Jesus, they were going to eat The Passover that night and did not want to be defiled. It wasn't The Passover, it was the day of preparation: 13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! John 19.13+14 Regarding the "even" when the lambs were slaughtered The Jewish Encyclopedia says that during The Second Temple period this was from "after noon until night fall" - there was, accoding to Josepus, apx 250,000 sheep to slaughter so it took awhile.
We can't slaughter a lamb, but we can take the bread and the wine on the night He was arrested, that is what The LORD taught Paul, and that is what Paul taught the Christians:

23. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24. And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11.23-25

If he died at the end of The Passover it was at the wrong time - the lamb had to be slain at the very beginning so the blood would be on the door by night fall - they were not to leave their homes that night.

If they killed the lamb at the end of the 14th how could they stay in their homes on the night of the 14th - it would already be in the past.

And they traveled on the night of the 15th.

The lamb was slaughtered at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th.

They stayed inside the night of the 14th, gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt the night of the 15th.

The Jewish Encyclopedia also says the leavene was removed on the night of the 13th.

Now this is done on the night of the 14th because The Passover is not observed at all - only The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Many Blessings -

Jim
Hi J. Jury -

You take the bread and the wine on the night of the 13th and always have??

I don't believe you.

In fact I think you don't have enough understanding to even understand you have only been observing The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Read the post again - you have been observing the way the Jews do.

Not the way commanded in scripture.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Just as an FYI- this is exactly how I have been keeping Passover since day one, yet you arrogantly and ignorantly accused me otherwise in another thread.

Without even knowing me, you have wrongly accused me of this, yet I do this exact thing as Scripture prescribes. But you don't take the time to listen, and instead just want to correct the behavior of others (in a place where you don't even know the people you are accusing).

Let me tell you something "buddy", knowledge speaks- wisdom listens. You are not the only one who correctly understands God's appointed times.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
Yes The Passover is to be eaten in the beginning of the 14th. The days always start in darkness.

The Israelites traveled on the night of the 15th.

On the night of the 14th the Israelites were to stay in their homes the entire night.

The 14th is not observed anymore only The Feast of Unleavened Bread - The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees.

What was origianally supposed be 8 days = Passover 1 day + Feaast of Unleavened Bread 7 days is now one 7 day Holy Day which they call The Passover dispite the fact The Passover (The 14th ) is not observed.

In times past the leavened was removed on the night of the 13th so the home would not be defiled by leaven on the 14th - now this is done on the night of the 14th - the home has already been defiled -

This is a major sin for which scripture says a person is "cut off" for.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?
Yeah, I'd like an answer to that one too...

Rick T. said:
Jim, how can you judge J.Jury without even knowing Him ?
Ok... please get this through your head...

I am not a Pharisee. I do not keep anything as the Pharisees do. Anything. I've stated this before.

Again, I have to reiterate, you have no idea how I keep Passover. You have no place making accusations without knowing the facts. This is called in Hebrew Lashon Hara, "the evil tongue", and is an offense under the Law of YHWH.

You have never met me. You have never seen my home. You have never met my family. What right do you have to call me a liar? What right do you have to slander me in an open forum?

Leviticus 19:16, "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am YHWH."
Psalm 34:13, "Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile."
Psalm 101:5, "Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer."
Proverbs 10:18, "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool."
1st Peter 9:10-11, "For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."
Ephesians 4:31, "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice."
Colossians 3:8, "But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth."

Slander is not cool.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
You take the bread and the wine on the night of the 13th and always have?? I don't believe you.

In fact I think you don't have enough understanding to even understand you have only been observing The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Read the post again - you have been observing the way the Jews do.

Not the way commanded in scripture.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Just as an FYI- this is exactly how I have been keeping Passover since day one, yet you arrogantly and ignorantly accused me otherwise in another thread.

Without even knowing me, you have wrongly accused me of this, yet I do this exact thing as Scripture prescribes. But you don't take the time to listen, and instead just want to correct the behavior of others (in a place where you don't even know the people you are accusing).

Let me tell you something "buddy", knowledge speaks- wisdom listens. You are not the only one who correctly understands God's appointed times.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
Yes The Passover is to be eaten in the beginning of the 14th. The days always start in darkness.

The Israelites traveled on the night of the 15th.

On the night of the 14th the Israelites were to stay in their homes the entire night.

The 14th is not observed anymore only The Feast of Unleavened Bread - The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees.

What was origianally supposed be 8 days = Passover 1 day + Feaast of Unleavened Bread 7 days is now one 7 day Holy Day which they call The Passover dispite the fact The Passover (The 14th ) is not observed.

In times past the leavened was removed on the night of the 13th so the home would not be defiled by leaven on the 14th - now this is done on the night of the 14th - the home has already been defiled -

This is a major sin for which scripture says a person is "cut off" for.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?
Cat got your tongue?

J. Jury said:
Slander is not cool.
Hi J. Jury -

The Spirit tells me the truth

And he truth is you don't take the wine and the bread on the 13th

Rail all you like - you don't have The Spirit - it shows

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Ok... please get this through your head...

I am not a Pharisee. I do not keep anything as the Pharisees do. Anything. I've stated this before.

Again, I have to reiterate, you have no idea how I keep Passover. You have no place making accusations without knowing the facts. This is called in Hebrew Lashon Hara, "the evil tongue", and is an offense under the Law of YHWH.

You have never met me. You have never seen my home. You have never met my family. What right do you have to call me a liar? What right do you have to slander me in an open forum?

Leviticus 19:16, "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am YHWH."
Psalm 34:13, "Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile."
Psalm 101:5, "Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer."
Proverbs 10:18, "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool."
1st Peter 9:10-11, "For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."
Ephesians 4:31, "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice."
Colossians 3:8, "But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth."

Slander is not cool.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
You take the bread and the wine on the night of the 13th and always have?? I don't believe you.

In fact I think you don't have enough understanding to even understand you have only been observing The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days.

Read the post again - you have been observing the way the Jews do.

Not the way commanded in scripture.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Just as an FYI- this is exactly how I have been keeping Passover since day one, yet you arrogantly and ignorantly accused me otherwise in another thread.

Without even knowing me, you have wrongly accused me of this, yet I do this exact thing as Scripture prescribes. But you don't take the time to listen, and instead just want to correct the behavior of others (in a place where you don't even know the people you are accusing).

Let me tell you something "buddy", knowledge speaks- wisdom listens. You are not the only one who correctly understands God's appointed times.

Jim Wright said:
Hi J. Jury -
Yes The Passover is to be eaten in the beginning of the 14th. The days always start in darkness.

The Israelites traveled on the night of the 15th.

On the night of the 14th the Israelites were to stay in their homes the entire night.

The 14th is not observed anymore only The Feast of Unleavened Bread - The Jewish Encyclopedia agrees.

What was origianally supposed be 8 days = Passover 1 day + Feaast of Unleavened Bread 7 days is now one 7 day Holy Day which they call The Passover dispite the fact The Passover (The 14th ) is not observed.

In times past the leavened was removed on the night of the 13th so the home would not be defiled by leaven on the 14th - now this is done on the night of the 14th - the home has already been defiled -

This is a major sin for which scripture says a person is "cut off" for.

Blessings -

Jim

J. Jury said:
Am I correct in assuming that your whole issue is that we are to observe Passover on the 14th, and not just the Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th-21st? And that we are to eat the Passover meal at the beginning of the 14th day, not the end of it?

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