Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Hi Christopher -
Jesus was killed at the exact time The Passover lamb is to be slaughtered - at the very end of the 13th / beginning of the 14th.
The ancient Israelites had had to kill the lamb, divide the meat, put the blood on the door ways before the Passover started at sundown on the 14th and stay in their homes on the night time portion of the 14th while the death angel passed over Egypt
The Passover evening was right after Jesus was put into the tomb, He ate the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried and killed on the day of preparation for the Passover:
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.    John 19.14+15
The Passover was eaten the night after He was in the tomb:
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?      John 18.28+29
The bread and the wine are to be taken on the night, of the day Jesus was arrested, tried, and put on the cross = the 13th of Abib, the day of preparation for The Passover, the day leavening should be removed from the home.
I have gone into more details on this page:
The real question is should The Passover lamb be slain at the beginning or the end of the 14th.
If the ancient Israelites had killed the lamb at the end of The Passover the blood would not have been on their doors when the death angel passed over = disaster for them.
They left Egypt on the night of the 15th.
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.     Numbers 33.3
They stayed in their homes on the night of the 14th, and ate the lamb.
What is throwing you off is the fact The Jews do not observe the 14th anymore, I document that on that page above.
Jesus died and was put into the tomb at the very beginning of the 14th, The Passover.
Many Blessings -
Jim


Christopher Hernandez said:

Jim, You are right that Passover should be the night of the 14th. But Yahshua was crucified on Passover:

On which day of the week was Yahshua crucified:
According to Luke 22:1, the feast of unleavened bread is also called the passover, referring to the whole feast as "passover".Also, the lamb is called passover.22:7"Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed." In Ex. 12:1-6 we read this is Abib 14.Yahshua had this Passover meal the same day with his disciples.Mat.26:18-20.That morning Yahshua was crucified.Since a new day begins at sunset according to the Bible,it was still the day of the Passover.Yet John called that day the "preparation of the passover." Notice the word "passover" is in lower case here, where previously it began with a capital P. This is because, according to Luke 22:1, the Passover can mean the day of the Passover(capitalized), or the feast week(uncapitalized).The Passover day itself is not a day of rest, but the day after it is.Ex.12:16.The Passover evening comes first, when Yahshua had the meal with his disciples, the next morning is the time of the preparation for the feast week.Joseph placed Yahshua in the tomb on the same day.Luke 23:50-56.Yahshua said he would be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, or 3 whole days.Mat.12:40.Now we know that Yahshua was crucified on Abib 14,Passover,and he rose on Abib 17,after 3 whole days.But to know the days of the week,read and compare Mark 16:1-2;Luke 24:1;John 20:1. Now we know that Yahshua rose on Sunday. So, all we have to do is go back 3 days and we arrive at Thursday as the day of the crucifixion.This means that Friday was the day of rest,for the feast,and the Sabbath was the next day,also a day of rest.The women arrived Sunday.3 days from Thursday. Here is the timeline simplified: (Evening means NIGHT, and morning means DAY).
Abib 14 (Wednesday-Thursday)        Abib 15                            Abib 16                        Abib 17 (Firstfruits)
Early evening:Passover meal           Early evening:Matsah         A weekly Sabbath        Yahshua rose
Mid-evening:Yahshua's arrest          Feast begins(A Sabbaton)
Early morning:The walk to Golgatha
Mid-morning:Yahshua's crucifixion
Late morning:Yahshua is entombed

Regarding what was said in the show  - 70Week - there are at least two lambs that are offered in homes. The 1st in the evening of 1st borns when we remember how the children of Israel have escaped in Egypt, and the 2nd is in the day after shabbat for the grain flower offering is done with a lamb as a perpetual statute in all dwellings for the feast of 1st fruit.

Maybe Caiaphas said not to be defiled just for the feast of unleavened bread (matzot) that last one week.

Hi Florin -
The Passover lambs were not slain in the homes except for the first Passover in Egypt - after that they were slain in the Temple, as commanded by The LORD:
 5.  Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God giveth thee:
 6.  But at the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.     Deuteronomy 16.5+6
And this is confirmed by history and The Jewish Encyclopedia:
The Passover lamb was killed, in the time of the Second Temple, in the court where all other "ḳodashim" were slaughtered, in keeping with the Deuteronomic prescription, and it was incumbent upon every man and woman to fulfil this obligation. The time "between the two evenings" ("ben ha-'arbayim") was construed to mean "after noon and until nightfall," the killing of the lamb following immediately upon that of the "tamid," the burning of the incense, and the setting in order of the lamps, according to daily routine. The killing was done with great caution, to avoid contact with ḥameẓ. After the carcass had been properly prepared, and the blood properly disposed of, it was taken home by its owner and roasted and eaten at eventide.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=98&letter=P&am...
The ancient Israelites killed the lamb at the end of the 13th / very beginning of the 14th.
They stayed in their homes the night of the 14th, as commanded:
21.  Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
 22.  And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.      Exodus 12.21+22
And they left Egypt the night of the 15th, the night AFTER The Passover (which is the night of the 14th):
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.     Numbers 33.3
The Fast of the Firstborn was not observed until after The Temple was destroyed and the Priests were unable to sacrifice the lamb - it had to be done in the Temple.
But the fact that they are mourning the Egyptian dead during the day light portion of the 14th is more proof that The Passover was the night of the 14th - the Egyptians were already dead by the daylight portion of the 14th - they had died at midnight the 14th - in the middle of the night.
Hundreds of years after The Temple was destroyed The Jews quit observing The Passover 14th.
I do not know if it is true or not, but I have been told it was because when the day of preparation for the the Passover, (the 13th) fell on a Friday, the bloodthirsty Sunday keepers would accuse them of witchcraft and set upon them, Friday the 13th and all.
What they call the Passover (in realty the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread) starts at the end of the 14th / beginning of the 15th.
In the Bible the Egyptian firstborns were already dead by the beginning of the 15th - they died in the middle of the night on the 14th.
 
They were being buried as The Israelites were gathering in Ramses and leaving on the night of the 15th.
 
3.  And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
 4.  For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the Lord had smitten among them: upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.    Numbers 33.3+4
It is true - The Passover was the night of the 14th - not the night of the 15th.
I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to check out my website:
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim
Although we have not always seen eye to eye (even in this very thread, stuff got nasty between us about a year ago), I do happen to agree with Jim's assessment that Passover is at the beginning of the 14th, not at the end of it.

It's the only timeline that makes sense in the Scriptures, and it is confirmed by Jasher.
Hi J. Jury -
How have you been?
Hope all has been well with you and yours.
And thankful someone is still reading this thread.
I just don't see any way around it - The Israelites stayed in their homes on the night of the 14th, the Egyptian first born died, the day portion of the 14th The Israelites gathered in Ramses, and left on the night of the 15th guided by the pillar of fire, "the night to be much observed".
40.  Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
 41.  And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.
 42.  It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.       Exodus 12.40-42
The night after the night of The Passover:
 3.  And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
 4.  For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the Lord had smitten among them: upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.
 5.  And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth.       Numbers 33.3-5
Many Blessings -
Jim
actuslly Scripture says that 14-21 is the seven days of passover: 14-21 is not 8 days but seven, when counted correctly.
Hello Anayahu -
Passover is one day = The 14th of Abib
The Feast of Unleavened Bread is 7 days = the 15th - 21st
4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.       Leviticus 23.4-6
During the exodus The Israelites stayed in their homes on the night of the 14th, The Passover, and they left Egypt the 15th - the day after The Passover.
3.  And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
 4.  For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the Lord had smitten among them: upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.       Numbers 33.3
The night of the 14th they stayed in their homes (as commanded), ate their lambs, burned the bones, and The LORD passed over Egypt killing all the firstborn, who were being buried during the daylight portion of the 14th.
The Israelites gathered in Ramses during the daylight portion of the 14th and left Egypt on the 15th
Blessings -
Jim
Anayahu ven Dawid Yahushafat said:
actuslly Scripture says that 14-21 is the seven days of passover: 14-21 is not 8 days but seven, when counted correctly.
Just so you know, in the Rabbinic System Passover is not a day, it is an offering/meal held in the evening of the 14th leading into the 15th and is not an entire day.
Hi James -
That is how it is now since they have forsaken The Passover, but while The Temple was standing and it was possible to sacrifice the lamb properly at the beginning of the 14th they observed the 14th all day.
That is why in the past the leavening was removed on the night of the 13th;

Removal of Leaven.

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight, though it was not necessary to examine by candle-light places that were open to the sunlight. Study was suspended in favor of this duty of inspecting holes and corners. Minute regulations were devised for the inspection of holes midway between houses, but precautions were taken not to arouse suspicions of witchcraft in the minds of non-Jewish neighbors. Certain places, where the likelihood of finding ḥameẓ was infinitesimal, were exempt (see "Yad," l.c. ii.).


(see image) Cloth Used for Covering Passover Dish.(In the possession of Von Wilmersdörffer, Munich.)
(see image) Seder Feast and Accompanying Passover Preparations.'(From Bodenschatz, "Kirchliche Verfassung," 1748.)
In practise this "bediḳat ḥameẓ" was effected as follows: As soon as night (on the 13th) had completely set in, the father of the household ("ba'al ha-bayit") lighted a plain wax taper, took a spoon and a brush, or three or four entire feathers, and, after having deposited a piece of bread in some noticeable place, as on a window-sill, to mark the beginning of the search, made the complete round of the house and gathered up all the leavened bread that was in it. Coming to the window-sill where the piece of bread was deposited, he carefully put it into the spoon, leaving no crums on the sill, and pronounced this benediction: "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast commanded us to remove the leaven." Then he added an Aramaic formula: "All leaven which perchance remains in my domain and which has escaped my observation shall be destroyed and be like unto the dust of the earth."



Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=98&letter=P&am...
I did not add that "(on the 13th)" - that is what it says.
And this is why the priests were going to eat The Passover the night after Yeshua died:
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.       John 18.27+28
Jesus died on the day before The Passover, which started at sundown.
The leavening was removed the night of the 13th and the lambs were slain in the afternoon of the 13th, before sunset which would start The Passover, it took all afternoon for The Priests to slaughter the apx. 250,000 lambs which would be at the homes after sunset:
The Passover lamb was killed, in the time of the Second Temple, in the court where all other "ḳodashim" were slaughtered, in keeping with the Deuteronomic prescription, and it was incumbent upon every man and woman to fulfil this obligation. The time "between the two evenings" ("ben ha-'arbayim") was construed to mean "after noon and until nightfall," the killing of the lamb following immediately upon that of the "tamid," the burning of the incense, and the setting in order of the lamps, according to daily routine. The killing was done with great caution, to avoid contact with ḥameẓ. After the carcass had been properly prepared, and the blood properly disposed of, it was taken home by its owner and roasted and eaten at eventide.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=98&letter=P&am...
After The Temple was destroyed the Passover lamb could no longer be sacrificed they quit observing The Passover and substituted The Fast of the Firstborn whom they understood had died in the middle of the night of the 14th, The Passover.
Jesus died in the late afternoon of the 13th, the day the leavening was removed and the lambs were killed so they could be eaten after sunset, the beginning of the 14th:
13.  When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!    John 19.13+14
The preparation for the weekly Sabbath is Friday (the day before) and the preparation for the 14th is the 13th (the day before) - just as the Jewish Encyclopedia said - the leavening was removed the NIGHT OF THE 13TH.
Jesus was on the stake near The Miphkad Altar while the 250,000 lambs were being slain in The Temple - everyone saw His suffering.
Blessings -
Jim

 

this thread was a good debate and i think should be read in view of current related issue concerning Messiah's death. although most of Jim's presentation was from personal interpretations it appears that there are lots of messianics who want to break from traditional observance of the Jews.

 

the materials herein posted is still relevant for those who are aligned to Jim. but me and James Trimm may stay according to tradition.

 

goodluck.

Hi Beryl -

It is the modern Jews who have abandoned the traditional observance of The Passover, as is noted in The Jewish Encyclopedia articles quoted on my page.

They plainly say that two Holy Days spanning 8 days have been joined into one lasting 7 days.

The ancient Israelites in Egypt stayed inside and ate their Passover on the night of the 14th, not the night of the 15th, which is when the ancient Israelites migrated out of Egypt.

 

The modern Jews have totally abandoned The Passover and only observe The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st, they call it The Passover but the Passover is the night of the 14th, and the modern Jews acknowledge this when the fast for the dead Egyptians during the daylight portion of the 14th.

 

Those Egyptians died when The LORD passed over in the night of the 14th, and they are mourned during the daylight portion of the 14th during The Fast of The Firstborn.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

 

hi Jim,

how are you, hope it is well with you and yours.

i have actually reviewed this thread since there is currently a thread somewhat related into this one at point of time, bringing this once again into the front in the hope that your ideas can give light to some members who seem to concur to your position.

 

as for me though i cannot modify my observance. i have the privilege to enjoy the benefit of tradition that has gone for thousands of years now. i can argue and refute many of your points but it can be completely futile since you and i are looking at the two feasts from two different perspectives. i respect your opinion and i know someday you will realize the validity of our people's position. but it can take time for you, meantime i don't want to blight our friendship just for this issue, since each of us has come to the point of closing both ears from the other. :-)

 

please do continue to share your insights for the benefit of others.

 

shalom and good luck.

 

beryl

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