Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Hi J. Jury

 

How have you and yours been??

 

Well, I hope + pray

 

Along the way the religious leaders substituted The Fast of the Firstborn (a tradition of men) for the Passover a Commandment of God.

 

Really all it should take is looking at a Jewish Calender - they have the word "Passover" on the 15th, when The Torah plainly tells us The Passover is on the 14th.

 

Following the traditions of men results in spiritual drunkedness and confusion, not sometimes, not most of the time but all of the time:

 

 9.  Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
 10.  For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
 11.  And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
 12.  And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
 13.  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 14.  Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.      Isaiah 29.9-14

 

I am going to go by scripture, not the words of the Pope, not the words of any rabbi, except my Rabbi Yeshua The Messiah.

 

The ancient Israelites stayed in their homes the night of the 14th (as commanded), while The LORD passed over, they gathered in Rameses during the daylight of the 14th and they left Egypt on the 15th, the night to be much observed.

 

The 15th is not the Passover - it is the day after The Passover:

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.    Numbers 33.3

 

Do hope all has been well with you

 

Many Blessings -

 

Jim

 

Jim,

I agree with Isa 29 in connection with the Judaic Passover.  My belief is that the misfunction in interpretation of the Law in Judaism can be seen in the verses immediately preceding the verse which mentions the New Covenant (for the first and only time in the Tanach) at Jeremiah 31:31, when he talks about the "sour grapes" (mentioned again in Ezekiel 18, directly after Ezekiel 17). 

Jer 31:29

In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.'


Immediately afterwards the New Covenant (in Messiah Yeshua) is mentioned:

Behold, days are coming," declares YHWH, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, and I rejected them," declares YHWH. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares YHWH, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people


Now in verse 35 the Prophet makes a curious statement:

Thus says YHWH, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; YHWH of hosts is His name:


Why mention the sun and the statutes of the moon at this particular point? Because the Old Covenant which was abrogated that caused YHWH to turn his back to his people had become formless in void in its understanding of how to observe YHWH's appointed times correctly.  

Gen 1:14 talks about the 2 great luminaries, (the sun and the moon) which rule over the day and night. 

Then God said, "Let there be *lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, let them be for signs and for Appointed Times (the Feasts of YHWH in other words)  and for days and years;

This is a poetic way of describing the rules of the calendar, which in practice determines the Festivals.  The Hebrew text is really strange:

ויאמר                   אלהים                             יהי           מארת                         ברקיע                   השמים

    the                   

heavens            in the firmament  of      lmnrs          may there be             Elohim             and said


the word   מארת  (m'oroth) "luminaries" is spelled defectively (without the vav which is normally present  i.e.  מאור  ) in such a way that it can be read, (and I will try to put this gently)  curses. 

I think the mishandling of the Feasts of YHWH is a part of the Old Covnenant which is symbolized by the 'sour grape' and that those who wish to enter the New Covenant in Messiah should try to get YHWH's Holy Days right.


As a conclusion to this line of thought, YHWH did not leave us in doubt about who the covenant is with:


Jer 31:37

Thus says YHWH, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel.

Thus we see that YHWH did not abandon Israel and He will restore them in Messiah.


 

so state now your instructions how, what and when all over between nisan 13, 14 and 15.

 

you cannot simply make your self upright by simply talking evil against the rabbinic side (i have not yet spoken about our practice and i shall after you make your self clear. but i will not if you will continue with your muddy thoughts and unspecific suggestions.)

 

remember you don't belong to something established or known: you are new in your own theories, so we must first understand what is it that you are doing, when and how. you should be straight and honest enough to tell to  the crowd about those important points in the law keeping.

 

BE CLEAR AND HONEST TO STATE YOUR PROPER KEEPING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TREATED LIKE A BRIGAND.

 

STATE NOW. THAT IS YOUR HOMEWORK. YOU HAVE BEEN REMINDED OF THIS DUTY BUT YOU WANTED TO SHUN FROM IT.

 


Jim Wright said:

Hi J. Jury

 

How have you and yours been??

 

Well, I hope + pray

 

Along the way the religious leaders substituted The Fast of the Firstborn (a tradition of men) for the Passover a Commandment of God.

 

Really all it should take is looking at a Jewish Calender - they have the word "Passover" on the 15th, when The Torah plainly tells us The Passover is on the 14th.

 

Following the traditions of men results in spiritual drunkedness and confusion, not sometimes, not most of the time but all of the time:

 

 9.  Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
 10.  For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
 11.  And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
 12.  And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
 13.  Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 14.  Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.      Isaiah 29.9-14

 

I am going to go by scripture, not the words of the Pope, not the words of any rabbi, except my Rabbi Yeshua The Messiah.

 

The ancient Israelites stayed in their homes the night of the 14th (as commanded), while The LORD passed over, they gathered in Rameses during the daylight of the 14th and they left Egypt on the 15th, the night to be much observed.

 

The 15th is not the Passover - it is the day after The Passover:

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.    Numbers 33.3

 

Do hope all has been well with you

 

Many Blessings -

 

Jim

 

 

I am simply pointing out that if you acknowledge that the 14th is right, why continue in a mistaken way? 

yirmiyahu attend to your personal thread and do your homework there. you cannot bark and bark the orthodox side and gain the glory for being right if you yourself cannot even establish something right in your own.

 

mistaken? SO WHAT WHEN AND HOW IS DEATH OF MESSIAH RECKONED IN UNMISTAKEN WAY? THIS IS YOUR DUTY TO SATISFY THE CROWD IN YOUR VERY OWN THREAD SO GO BACK THERE AND DO THAT HOMEWORK. DO NOT COME AND SEEK HELP FROM JIM, FACE THE CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR OWN FOLLY. I SHALL BE THERE TO ANSWER YOUR COMPLETE THESIS.

 

 

where is Jim?

 

Hi Yirmeyahu -

 

I agree that the blindness is only temporary, for all Israel + Judah shall be saved - it is just a matter of when a very few in the first resurrection, the vast majority in the second.

 

I agree with everything you wrote, except your statement that The First Covenant has been abrogated.

 

This does not happen until every single Israelite there has ever been has recieved The Holy Spirit, for the difference between The First Covenant and The New Covenant is not The Laws, but rather what they are written on.

 

 26.  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 27.  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.        Ezekiel 36.26+27

 

31.  Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
 32.  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
 33.  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.       Jeremiah 31.31.33

 

The First Covenant was written on hearts of stone (spirtually drunken people).

 

The New Covenant is written upon the hearts and mind by receiving The Holy Spirit.

 

When all of Israel and Judah has been brought into The New Covenant by being baptized in The Holy Spirit then The Old Covenant will be gone, this doesn't happen until the vast majority of Israel rises in flesh and bone bodies in the second resurrection shown to us in Ezekiel 36 + 37

 

It is because The First Covenant is in effect that The LORD punishes Israel and Judah during the last 7 years, the 5th (The Tribulation), 6th,+7th Seals (The Day of The LORD).

 

1.  Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
 2.  And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
 3.  The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
 4.  The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
 5.  The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
 6.  Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.      Isaiah 24.1-6

 

The soon to come, lo, they are already upon us!!! events are shown us in Deuteronomy 28, and it mentions that this is forever:

 

 45.  Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
 46.  And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

 

Blessings - Jim

 

 

 

don't waste your time blah blah on something outside the thread Jim. do your homework.

 

WHERE IS YOUR THESIS ON PESACH AND CHAG HAMATZAH? it is your duty as an OP. i am waiting for it.

 

 

Jim if you cannot make clear what you wanted to happen on 13th to 15th of nisan then you are only creating confusion out of your own confused mind.

 

Hi Beryl -

 

Oh I see - you can't be bothered to examine the evidence:

 

 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.        Proverbs 18.13

 

I was going to go through your points one by one, but I keep hitting the character limit

 

Here is the page:

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

 

Examine it or bring even more shame upon yourself

 

Bring up one point at a time and I will address it

 

The fact is you are the one who has abandoned the ancient practises, there is a reason why they use to remove the leavening on the night of the 13th:

 

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight, though it was not necessary to examine by candle-light places that were open to the sunlight.

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11933-passover

 

And read it to the bottom you will see they know 2 separate Holy Days (The Passover 1 day + The Feast of Unleavened Bread - 7 days) have been joined into one.

 

The LORD says The Passover is on the 14th

 

You say it is on the 15th

 

I know who to believe

 

And if you are not going to accept Christ's example in some of the matters, well that is your problem.

 

Blessings -

 Jim

 



beryl etanah said:

 

Jim don't worry, i know the commandments, except your linked material. sorry it is not my habit to follow links, as i suppose relevant things are ought to be posted rather than not.

 

i shall have time to check back for your complete instruction.

 

you said:

 

"Or is it possible that in all the thousands of years The Jews have been acting so perfectly that no one ever bothered to tell you the unleavened bread of truth is to be consumed for seven days, symbolizing completness -or have they been ignoring this plain and simple Commandment??"

 

reply: 

i think this insulting remark from you is not necessary.

 

you are given your time to present your case completely, don't waste time insulting the Jews. focus your attention into your thesis.

 

Beryl, I have responded to your question in my thread (which is more than I can say for you regarding my question about the exact calendar day and time of the 'evening' /'erev' of Matthew 26:20).  It is waiting for your parousal in my thread. Shalom

beryl etanah said:

 

I am simply pointing out that if you acknowledge that the 14th is right, why continue in a mistaken way? 

yirmiyahu attend to your personal thread and do your homework there. you cannot bark and bark the orthodox side and gain the glory for being right if you yourself cannot even establish something right in your own.

 

mistaken? SO WHAT WHEN AND HOW IS DEATH OF MESSIAH RECKONED IN UNMISTAKEN WAY? THIS IS YOUR DUTY TO SATISFY THE CROWD IN YOUR VERY OWN THREAD SO GO BACK THERE AND DO THAT HOMEWORK. DO NOT COME AND SEEK HELP FROM JIM, FACE THE CONSEQUENCE OF YOUR OWN FOLLY. I SHALL BE THERE TO ANSWER YOUR COMPLETE THESIS.

 

Hi Beryl -

 

You claim you know the commandents but you acted like you never heard of The LORD's command to consume unleavened bread every one of the seven days of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

This thread is in regard to this page:

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

 

So you have examined everything EXCEPT what this thread is about.

 

I suggest you read it before you respond to it again, please.

 

  He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.     Proverbs 18.13

 

You are the one who has abandoned the ancient practises and I document it:

 

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection

 

In practise this "bediḳat ḥameẓ" was effected as follows: As soon as night (on the 13th) had completely set in, the father of the household ("ba'al ha-bayit") lighted a plain wax taper, took a spoon and a brush, or three or four entire feathers, and, after having deposited a piece of bread in some noticeable place, as on a window-sill, to mark the beginning of the search

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11933-passover

 

They did this because The Torah commands no leaven in the home on the 14th - The Passover

 

Which The Jews no longer observe - they only observe The Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days, The LORD list 8 unleavened days

 

I document it all

 

I will address any point you like one at a time - but, I am very busy and keep hitting the 4000 character limit

 

Blessings -

Jim

 

 

 

beryl etanah said:

 

Jim don't worry, i know the commandments, except your linked material. sorry it is not my habit to follow links, as i suppose relevant things are ought to be posted rather than not.

 

i shall have time to check back for your complete instruction.

 

you said:

 

"Or is it possible that in all the thousands of years The Jews have been acting so perfectly that no one ever bothered to tell you the unleavened bread of truth is to be consumed for seven days, symbolizing completness -or have they been ignoring this plain and simple Commandment??"

 

reply: 

i think this insulting remark from you is not necessary.

 

you are given your time to present your case completely, don't waste time insulting the Jews. focus your attention into your thesis.

 

Beryl -

 

You are one obnoxious woman.

 

You insult me dozens of times, even calling me a gentile (twice!!) and then whine when I put some truth in front of you.

 

You ask a question and you complain when I give an answer, that you agree with, acting like I was trying to tell you how to act when I was just answering your question.

 

I have a job and 100 e-mails in my box and you can't be bothered to even read the page that this thread is about.

 

And a few of these rants you have been cutting loose with make me question your mental stability.

 

Examine this and show any errors, IF YOU CAN:

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

 

You are the one who has abandoned the ancient ways

 

Jim

 

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