Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Hi Beryl -

 

You are mistaken, the only way The Jews observe The Passover these day is by The Fast of the Firstborn during the day of the 14th when they mourn the Egyptians who died during the night time portion of the the 14th, The Passover when The LORD passed over Egypt.

 

They still observe The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.

 

The Passover and The Feast of Unleavened Bread are two different Holy Days:

 

5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.          Leviticus 13.5+6

 

Two of the seven Holy Days commanded by The LORD which act out His plan of salvation.

 

The rest of their Holy Days are of man and are useless in approaching The LORD, for they are the doctrines and commandments of men:

 

7.  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
 8.  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 9.  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.       Matthew 15.7-9

 

They call it "The Passover" but they do not observe the 14th, and haven't for several hundred years.

 

They don't remove the leaven on the night of the 13th anymore either.

 

They moved it up a night to the 14th since they no longer observe the 14th.

 

It is true

 

Blessings -

 

Jim
beryl etanah said:


 

You are very mistaken, it is only in recent times, maybe the past 300 years or 400 years or so that The Jews have not observed The Passover on the 14th.

 

  --excuse me. there was not a moment that my people did not observe pesach.

 

 

That is why they were still removing the leavening from their homes on the night of the 13th in medieval times.

 

  --Jim you are confused. please be reserved in your utterance.

 

 
And the account in Exodus is very clear, they slaughtered the lambs, divided the meat, put the blood on their doors, and stayed in their homes until daylight, gathered in Rameses, and left on the night of the 15th, the night to be much remembered:

 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.    Numbers 33.3

 There really is no other way, and the events in Egypt were the shadow of the reality of Christ's sacrifice, The real Passover, Christ died at the right time, not a day late.

 

--actually passover and chag matzah are ways of life and creed. to be exact, you or anyone cannot pretend to know more about it by the mere “reading” of texts than the people whose generations lived around those mysteries for thousands of years. let me caution your innocence that by your hasty conclusions what you wanted to do is overturn a tradition that has been for thousands of years (including Yeshua's moment on earth) and that is too much from a person who just came into the realm of torah keeping: this is not a matter of evangelio ad libitum, this is a matter of law to us upon whom injunctions were explicitly imposed and our elders did not sleep in their duties in passing to us what when and why such things are done that way.

 

--i am talking in plain narrative non-argumentative because i don't want to offend your pride and dignity. as i have said you can go on proferring texts for your position with impunity from me so long as you mutually respect my tradition.

 

in one Messiah,

 

beryl

 



Jim Wright said:

Hi beryl -

 

You are very mistaken, it is only in recent times, maybe the past 300 years or 400 years or so that The Jews have not observed The Passover on the 14th.

 

That is why they were still removing the leavening from their homes on the night of the 13th in medieval times.

 

And the account in Exodus is very clear, they slaughtered the lambs, divided the meat, put the blood on their doors, and stayed in their homes until daylight, gathered in Rameses, and left on the night of the 15th, the night to be much remembered:

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.    Numbers 33.3

 

There really is no other way, and the events in Egypt were the shadow of the reality of Christ's sacrifice, The real Passover, Christ died at the right time, not a day late.

 

Blessings -

Jim



beryl etanah said:

 

hi Jim,

how are you, hope it is well with you and yours.

i have actually reviewed this thread since there is currently a thread somewhat related into this one at point of time, bringing this once again into the front in the hope that your ideas can give light to some members who seem to concur to your position.

 

as for me though i cannot modify my observance. i have the privilege to enjoy the benefit of tradition that has gone for thousands of years now. i can argue and refute many of your points but it can be completely futile since you and i are looking at the two feasts from two different perspectives. i respect your opinion and i know someday you will realize the validity of our people's position. but it can take time for you, meantime i don't want to blight our friendship just for this issue, since each of us has come to the point of closing both ears from the other. :-)

 

please do continue to share your insights for the benefit of others.

 

shalom and good luck.

 

beryl

 

Jim,

 

okay once and for all explain completely in detail when and how do you celebrate pesach.

 

without posting any link outside explain here clearly and completely how it is supposed to be done. since it is futile harangue against traditional people if you don't even know how to do it yourself? if you can convince me then i shall abandon my rabbis and cling to your teachings.

 

i wait.

 

beryl

 

ps. when it says completely that is complete. my rabbis taught me in detail how, we even have aggadot to follow. so make your instructions in detail that nothing is left to be asked, concerning points of observance in the scriptures. first: what is to be done; second: when it is to be done; and how it is done, specifically pointing to scriptural passages as to why.

 

Hi Beryl -

 

I work and need to get to sleep, but I will outline what I see in scripture.

 

I already document most all of it on my webpage:

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

 

But in a nutshell:

 

After sunset starting the 13th of Abib we are to remove the leavening, remember the suffering of Yeshua endured in arrest, trial, + beating, take the bread and the wine, sing the Hallel, as Christ and The Apsotles did. This is a new custom centered on commorating the suffering of The Lamb of God.

 

After sunset starting the 14th we are to eat the lamb and leave none till morning, staying in our home until sunup. This commorates the sacrifice of The Lamb of God and salvation from LORD passing over.

 

Just as the Israelites in Egypt did

 

Then for the next seven days (15th - 21st) we must eat at least a little bit of unleavened bread everyday and not eat any leavening.

 

The 15th and 21st are Sabbaths of no labor

 

This commorates the release from bondage (the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th) which the sacrifice of The Lamb of God brings about and symbolizes The Spirit Filled removing sin from our lives.

 

And while we are discussing leavening the rabbis teach that baking soda and baking powder are not leavening, and some sects of Judaism teach that egg whites are not leavening - this is obviously error, these are all leavening agents - the leavening represents sin and we are to remove all of it.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

 



beryl etanah said:

 

Jim,

 

okay once and for all explain completely in detail when and how do you celebrate pesach.

 

without posting any link outside explain here clearly and completely how it is supposed to be done. since it is futile harangue against traditional people if you don't even know how to do it yourself? if you can convince me then i shall abandon my rabbis and cling to your teachings.

 

i wait.

 

beryl

 

ps. when it says completely that is complete. my rabbis taught me in detail how, we even have aggadot to follow. so make your instructions in detail that nothing is left to be asked, concerning points of observance in the scriptures. first: what is to be done; second: when it is to be done; and how it is done, specifically pointing to scriptural passages as to why.

 


 
After sunset starting the 13th of Abib we are to remove the leavening,


--any passage to support this?
 

 
remember the suffering of Yeshua endured in arrest, trial, + beating,

 
--where are your passages to support this?
 

 

take the bread and the wine, sing the Hallel,


--which torah is this commanded?
 

 

as Christ and The Apsotles did. This is a new custom centered on commorating the suffering of The Lamb of God.


--which torah justifies this "new custom"?
 

 
After sunset starting the 14th we are to eat the lamb and leave none till morning,
 


--which lamb? any kind of lamb? how is the lamb prepared? who prescribes whether the lamb is fitting or not?
 

 

staying in our home until sunup. This commorates the sacrifice of The Lamb of God and salvation from LORD passing over.


--what of those who have no home? or homeless? what of those in the arctic where the sun goes up at 10 A.M.? how do you resolve its propriety or non-propriety of keeping your "new" halacha?
 

 

Just as the Israelites in Egypt did
 


--so it is necessary to "do as the Israelites in Egypt did"? so why did you not command to brush the lintels with the lamb's blood when torah has expressly mandated it so? is this another hypocrisy from a christian bible-genius?
 
 


Then for the next seven days (15th - 21st) we must eat at least a little bit of unleavened bread everyday and not eat any leavening.


--which torah passage says "at least a little bit" ? are you making this commandment for others to follow? are you a prophet? or a new author of man-made-tradition?
 

 

The 15th and 21st are Sabbaths of no labor


--this we did already for thousands of years, and we need no gentile to tell us this duty. rather if you will, start making your own history of keeping it, at least for few years from now on.
 

 

This commorates the release from bondage (the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th) which the sacrifice of The Lamb of God brings about and symbolizes The Spirit Filled removing sin from our lives.
 


--which apostle expressly provides this particular commandment? passage please. if you cannot present a passage for this commandment then ipsu factu this is another hypocrisy from christian bible-genius, another man-made tradition.
 

 

And while we are discussing leavening the rabbis teach that baking soda and baking powder are not leavening, and some sects of Judaism teach that egg whites are not leavening - this is obviously error, these are all leavening agents - the leavening represents sin and we are to remove all of it.


--well, leave them alone. no Jew will ever heed your adverse opinion until you prove you know the subject well better than them.
 

************

i was asking for a complete instruction so that no questions remain to be asked from me or anyone wishing to follow your wisdom. not a brief nutshell.
 
i still wait for a complete instruction with justifying passages for every halachic point.
 


Hi Beryl -

 

My notification of this post of yours went into my spam folder and I just noticed it - I have to go to work right now but I will respond to every point after work.

 

I must comment though - your questions make me wonder if you have ever read my page on this matter?

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

 

Or read the account in Exodus or the Commands regarding the Holy Days??

 

I mean really - you don't know of a Commandment to eat leavened bread for 7 days???

 

Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.      Exodus 12.15

 

 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.           Leviticus 23.5+6

 

Or is it possible that in all the thousands of years The Jews have been acting so perfectly that no one ever bothered to tell you the unleavened bread of truth is to be consumed for seven days, symbolizing completness -or have they been ignoring this plain and simple Commandment??

 

I will respond this evening - I suggest you read my page again because I already answered all these questions I am fairly sure.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

 

Jim don't worry, i know the commandments, except your linked material. sorry it is not my habit to follow links, as i suppose relevant things are ought to be posted rather than not.

 

i shall have time to check back for your complete instruction.

 

you said:

 

"Or is it possible that in all the thousands of years The Jews have been acting so perfectly that no one ever bothered to tell you the unleavened bread of truth is to be consumed for seven days, symbolizing completness -or have they been ignoring this plain and simple Commandment??"

 

reply: 

i think this insulting remark from you is not necessary.

 

you are given your time to present your case completely, don't waste time insulting the Jews. focus your attention into your thesis.

 

I personally have become a huge fan of the Rabbinic traditions and customs surrounding Passover. (2 points to Beryl)

I also openly acknowledge that in a straight forward reading of the Torah, Jasher, and the Gospels, the actual Pesach meal should take place at the beginning of the 14th rather than at the end of it. (2 points to Jim)

Looks like we have ourselves a tie. :-)

 

J. Jury please remove me from your scoreboard :-)

Couldn't those same customs be carried out (legally) on the 14th? Then you wouldn't need to be in fear that you are a transgressor of the law of Moses.

Yeshua said:  Did not Moses give you the Law, and  none of you carries out the Law?  John 7:19

Why live in fear in order to please mere humans?  Why tally points to Beryl?, who is no elohim.

Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. Psalm 146:3

J. Jury (אליהוא) said:

I personally have become a huge fan of the Rabbinic traditions and customs surrounding Passover. (2 points to Beryl)

I also openly acknowledge that in a straight forward reading of the Torah, Jasher, and the Gospels, the actual Pesach meal should take place at the beginning of the 14th rather than at the end of it. (2 points to Jim)

Looks like we have ourselves a tie. :-)

Several times in Scripture YHWH tells us not to deviate to the left or the right from his prescribed path (that is to say the one found in Scripture).

Now if a person sins and does any of the things which YHWH has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishmentLev 5:17

 

yirmiyahu you are losing your mind. what has J. Jury done to offend you and deserve such accusation as transgressor of the Law? he was merely joking, did you not get that? there is no actual "points" to my favor and don't worry i never win against you or jim. you are always a winner son, always, just like any other child against his mother.

 

now go back to your own thread and finish the homework before gallivanting.



Yirmeyahu said:

Couldn't those same customs be carried out (legally) on the 14th? Then you wouldn't need to be in fear that you are a transgressor of the law of Moses.

Yeshua said:  Did not Moses give you the Law, and  none of you carries out the Law?  John 7:19

Why live in fear in order to please mere humans?  Why tally points to Beryl?, who is no elohim.

Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. Psalm 146:3

J. Jury (אליהוא) said:

I personally have become a huge fan of the Rabbinic traditions and customs surrounding Passover. (2 points to Beryl)

I also openly acknowledge that in a straight forward reading of the Torah, Jasher, and the Gospels, the actual Pesach meal should take place at the beginning of the 14th rather than at the end of it. (2 points to Jim)

Looks like we have ourselves a tie. :-)

Beryl, I wrote what I wrote because Jim acknowledged that the 14th is correct, and therefore it is incorrect towards YHWH if he keeps the 15th.  I am not offended at J.Jury and I hope he is not offended at me.  I am simply pointing out that if you acknowledge that the 14th is right, why continue in a mistaken way?  I assure I am not losing my mind and what I wrote is quite logical.

beryl etanah said:

 

yirmiyahu you are losing your mind. what has J. Jury done to offend you and deserve such accusation as transgressor of the Law? he was merely joking, did you not get that? there is no actual "points" to my favor and don't worry i never win against you or jim. you are always a winner son, always, just like any other child against his mother.

 

now go back to your own thread and finish the homework before gallivanting.



Yirmeyahu said:

Couldn't those same customs be carried out (legally) on the 14th? Then you wouldn't need to be in fear that you are a transgressor of the law of Moses.

Yeshua said:  Did not Moses give you the Law, and  none of you carries out the Law?  John 7:19

Why live in fear in order to please mere humans?  Why tally points to Beryl?, who is no elohim.

Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. Psalm 146:3

J. Jury (אליהוא) said:

I personally have become a huge fan of the Rabbinic traditions and customs surrounding Passover. (2 points to Beryl)

I also openly acknowledge that in a straight forward reading of the Torah, Jasher, and the Gospels, the actual Pesach meal should take place at the beginning of the 14th rather than at the end of it. (2 points to Jim)

Looks like we have ourselves a tie. :-)

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