Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Maybe he believes that if two rabbis disagree, he is at liberty to pick and choose between the opinions of the rabbis.  but if all the rabbis agree, he must agree with them

1. The problem of why Rabbis disagree, and what to do with it, remains; the keyword is "authority."
2. There's probably not one issue all rabbis agree on, I mean, how do you even define Rabbi, what historical scope are you including, etc. 
3. If two Rabbis disagree, which one of them is the antisemite ?


Onieu bahn Duid said:

Maybe he believes that if two rabbis disagree, he is at liberty to pick and choose between the opinions of the rabbis.  but if all the rabbis agree, he must agree with them

hey its not my religion =).

I'd say though, maybe rabbi is defined like "bishop" is in Christianity, with apostolic/rabbinic succession.

if rabbis disagre, none of them are antisemitic.  i would suppose the person would conclude you are antisemitic only if you disagree with all the rabbis.

Greetings Onieu bahn Duid + Solomon Avar, welcome to the conversation and thankyou for the support - I am not anti semetic and I don't like being accused of it, not one little bit.

 

Hope Everyone has a very blessed New Year.

 

Jim

Jim,

Please don't point me to a web site in your reply. I would rather read a few words here than page after page of non-related material in seeking my answer. How is it you have stated what I see below? Why do you say X-tians are not sun-day keepers and furthermore state they do keep THE Sabbath when we all know they attempt to keep a day as THE Sabbath yet fail in all aspects, ..most unknowingly of course.

Then you go on to quote Rev 14:12 as if to state that X-tianity is obedient in all/most aspects and are surely part of the group mentioned at 14:12. I can tell you I strongly disagree with what you have presented. Please explain yourself further here. Mystery Babylon is "Twistianity"!  



Jim Wright said:

 

You are very mistaken to call the Sunday keepers Christians.

.

All Christians are Sabbath keepers, always have been.


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.       Revelation 14.12

 

The people you are calling Christians the New Testament calls "The Mystery of Iniquity (meaning NO LAW)", "Mystery Babylon", + "The Synagogue of Satan".

 



Hi Everyone - Hope + pray everyone has a blessed New Year, for The LORD's New Year is the 1st of Abib, not the first day of the seventh month:

 

1.  And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
 2.  This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.    Exodus 12.1+2

 

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.       Leviticus 23.24

 

I was just wondering is anyone involved in this thread had considered the possibilty, in my mind a virtual certainy, that when Judah forsook "The Pasover" it is describing the exact same condition we have today, where the 14th of Abib was not being observed, but that they never forssok the 7 days of The Feast of Unleavened Bread??

 

Scripture says Judah forsook "The Passover" and Josiah restored "The Passover".

 

But it never says The Feast of Unleavened Bread was forsaken, and it never says The Feast of Unleavened Bread was restored.

 

It says Josiah restored "The Passover" and that year the people obsevered both "The Passover" and "The Feast of Unleavened Bread", for the first time in many years.

 

And the children of Israel that were present kept the passover at that time, and the feast of unleavened bread seven days.   2 Chronicles 35.17

 

If they did forsake The Feast of Unleavened Bread how could they observe The Feast of Firstfruits?

 

How do you count 7 Sabbaths from a day you have completly forgotten?

 

It doesn't seem likely to me, in fact it does even sound possible.

 

But scripture never mentions The Feast of Firstfruits was forsaken, and it never says it was restored.

 

So I don't think it is possible Judah ever forsook The Feast of Unleavened Bread - the 15th - 21st, if they did they would have also lost The Feast of Firstfruits.

 

What what restored by Josiah was the proper observance of the 14th of Abib, The Passover,  a day which is not observed these days, except for "The Fast of the Firstborns", which acknowledges that by the daylight portion of the 14th of Abib the firstborn of the Egyptians had already died the night before, the night of the 14th in the middle of the night.

 

The 15th - 21st is not The Passover, it is The Feast of Unleavened Bread:

 

4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.         Leviticus 23.4-6

 

The people back in his days were in the exact same condition they are now, they did not observe the 14th and Josiah restored it.

 

Hope Everyone has a joyful and blessed new year - Jim

Mikha -

 

Read it again,  I never wrote that Sunday keepers observe The Sabbath

 

I wrote that all true Christians observe the Sabbath, and alway have.

 

Since you have no interest in learning the truth I won't bother to send you the links which document an unbroken chain of Sabbath keeping Christians going back to The Apostles, or any info on The Church of the East which at one point had over 100,000,000 Sabbath keeping Spirit FIlled members going from Edessa to Japan.

 

Know what the ancient Chinese word for a Christian was??

 

"those who don't eat pork"

 

I spent a year in the library every day for a year, after I read the complete Bible from cover to cover twice to get my facts straight - you can't be bothered to sit on your rump and click a link and spend a few minutes to examine the evidence.

 

It is pitiful

 

If you are not willing to seek the truth you will not ever find it

 

Happy New Year's

 

Jim

mikha El said:

Jim,

Please don't point me to a web site in your reply. I would rather read a few words here than page after page of non-related material in seeking my answer. How is it you have stated what I see below? Why do you say X-tians are not sun-day keepers and furthermore state they do keep THE Sabbath when we all know they attempt to keep a day as THE Sabbath yet fail in all aspects, ..most unknowingly of course.

Then you go on to quote Rev 14:12 as if to state that X-tianity is obedient in all/most aspects and are surely part of the group mentioned at 14:12. I can tell you I strongly disagree with what you have presented. Please explain yourself further here. Mystery Babylon is "Twistianity"!  



Jim Wright said:

 

You are very mistaken to call the Sunday keepers Christians.

.

All Christians are Sabbath keepers, always have been.


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.       Revelation 14.12

 

The people you are calling Christians the New Testament calls "The Mystery of Iniquity (meaning NO LAW)", "Mystery Babylon", + "The Synagogue of Satan".

 



Most likely then they, as the ones in our "Bibles" were being CALLED X-tain and were actually Nazarenes as verified from many sources. Why you would continue to do as the misguided did in the 1st century is beyond me. To each there own I suppose.

The Nazarenes were a small part of The Church of the East which had over 100,000,000 Sabbth keeping members until attacked by the forces of evil.

 

The Puritans were Sabbath keepers and the oldest Christian congregation in the US is a Seventh Day Baptist congregation in Rhode Island founded in 1671.

 

And in case you find a bit of wisdom and gumption here a link to more info which hardly mentions the Church of the East who guarded the Peshitta all these years:

 

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p122.html

 

Happy New Year -

 

Jim

 

Jim you said:

 

You are the one acting like an idiot and this responce shows it clearly.

The Torah commands there be no leaven in the home on the 14th, you might want to read your Torah.

comment:

--okay okay mr. lumborgine.

can you post here and now that divine injunction that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th?

 

torah says:

Exodus 12:15, "Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel." --this precisely points to 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread when absolute riddance of leaven is compulsory and punishable.

 

while to the contrary, the prophet, His Holiness St. Lumberguy says:

There shall be no leaven in the home on the 14th”

--now, your holiness, tell me what penalty shall you impose against any member here who happens to have a leaven in his house at about the fourth hour in the morning of Nisan 14th, and proffer now your divine authority when and why. otherwise you are again found as full of lies, a father of false teaching.

 

--you owe to the audience to point them from which text of torah did you get that? be honest. do not make up things and make The Holy One (BH) your mouth piece. it is evil to do that, be reminded.

*********

Jim you also said:

 

The only way to comply is to have the leaven removed before the 14th begins i.e. the 13th”

reply:

this is a man-made doctrine. your own man-made doctrine. you are a good inventor of poor laws.

 

But since The Jews no longer observe The Passover on the 14th there is no need to remove the leavening on the 13th, in their mind.”

 
 

reply:

an accusation flowing out of ignorance.

my point in asking what, when, why and how Pesach and Chag Hamatzah is to be celebrated is to pinpoint this very issue. you cannot substantiate the accusation easily until, and only until, you can show to the audience that you have the needed wisdom to judge over the matters, assuring them your mastery over what, when, why and how the feasts are to be celebrated according to divine precepts.

 

but as much as you only have your mouth but failed to provide the proper answers solicited hereof, it stands that you are only a noisy gong.

*********

 

REMINDER:

YOU OWE the following:

--substantiate your accusation that i said Pesach is nisan 15th;

--substantiate your statement that no-leaven is compulsory at the beginning of 14th.

 

goodluck your holiness.

 

beryl

 

yirmiyahu, i have replied you already in your thread, please do read it and i hope that should open up your mind.

 

allow me also to intervene clarifying few points in your post (though) for ben Avraham, somewhere it says there:

 

This thread is about when Scriptures say Passover is: if Jim or I am wrong, why not prove it with Scriptures? 

 

comment:

i hope you mean that. my response to your thread employ merely bible passages. i did not base my arguments on what is very clear from mishna and gommara.

 

Seems to me that anytime the Rabbinic viewpoint is not proven by Scriptures accusations of anti-Semitism are forthcoming.  I am pro-Semite, just as any true Believer should be.

 

comment:

actually, it is fair to caution you and everyone that rabbinic materials are deposits of traditions spanning by centuries, to say the least it is not a set of opinions by a single man, nay by simpletons, therefore, it is only proper to hold enough reservations when you did not find out what they are talking about.

 

you said "Seems to me..." and i'd say yes it "seems to you": the ostensible, or seeming, is the height that an average mind can attain at first and second reading of talmud, but if you are resourceful enough you will certainly find out that 90%+/- of primary and secondary arguments proffered in a given halachic objections are indeed based on biblical texts advanced as ordinary human ratiocination. i can show this to you if needed. however, since it is not the manner of rabbis to say quotations at length it is very often the reader goes to assuming that they are merely man's creation. but no. it must dawn to the fair biblical student's mind as he progresses in talmud that reason and divine mandate are the principal  ingredients of rabbinic material: principles that the true intellectual person can appreciate.

 

to say that "rabbinic viewpoint is not proven by scriptures" is one thing; and "failing to understand rabbinic viewpoint" is another; the first is not true, the second is almost often true.

 

hope this helps.

 

beryl

 

 

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