Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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okay Jim, i see you are yelling by the bold fonts. i shall answer you this quietly as possible. remember we are friends. :-)

 

from which perspective you want me to begin with? okay since you keep on lambasting the rabbinic praxis i shall endeavor to expound from that perspective as briefly as possible.

 

don't lose your temper. i love you, friend.

 

Hi Beryl -

 

I'm not mad at anyone, I apoligize if I have left that impression.

 

And I wasn't yelling, just highlighting the pertinent and relevent points, and I know the rabbis mean well, but they are in error on this and have been for several hundred years since they quit observing the 14th.

 

That is why Jewish folks have moved the search for leaven from the 13th to the 14th.

 

All the events of the exodus happened for one reason, to teach us how to act, for they were acting out endtime events:

 

1.  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
 2.  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
 3.  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
 4.  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
 5.  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
 6.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
 7.  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
 8.  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
 9.  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
 10.  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
 11.  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
 12.  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.    1 Corinthians 10.1-12

 

And the events of the exodus are the key to understanding The Passover, that is why The Priests realized their error when they found the lost Torah, and King Josiah had the heart to accept God's words over man's.

 

The LORD passed over Egypt on the night of the 14th, The Passover, and the people stayed in their homes until the sun rose, then they gathered in Rameses during the day of the 14th, and they left Egypt the night of the 15th, the day AFTER The Passover, not the night of The Passover:

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.      Numbers 33.3

 

The LORD "passed over" the night before they left Egypt, the lamb had to be killed at the very beginning of the 14th.

 

There really is no other way, unless you think they disobeyed The LORD and left their homes on the night of the the "passing over", while The LORD was passing over, there is no evidence of this and I suspect they didn't want to come out even when the Sun rose after hearing the wailing + mourning of the Egyptians all night long, and that they all lived in Rameses and had no need to gather.

 

I doubt The LORD would have spared them if they disobeyed His direct command to stay in their homes all night.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

 
"Hi Beryl -In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.    Exodus 12.18
Count it on your fingers, no leaven on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st
The Jews have totally abandoned the observance of the 14th, The Passover,  same as they did before King Josiah restored The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib, not the 15th, which is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread."

reply:
--the Jewry never abandon the observance of 14th from the second temple period up to present.  
 

"The Feast of Unleavened Bread is from the 15th - 21st - The Jews still observe this commanded Holy Day, but the first of the 7 commanded Holy Days, The Passover , on the 14th, has been forsaken."

reply:
--that is why i have been querying how pesach "ought" be celebrated, for we have been celebrating it the right way. if anything that lacks that is what i am waiting from you: what, how, and why. for i do not see anything scripturally anomalous in my people's practices.
 

 

"4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Leviticus 23.4-6"

reply:
--exactly that is what we are doing. what else does it need you to know.
 

 
"The LORD commands 7 Holy Days, but The Jews only observe 6 of the seven, they have blended the first two into one, I included the quote from The Jewish Encyclopedia on that page if you bothered to read it."

reply:
--okay i'll take your statement saying "they have blended the first two into one". can you expound more on it? how is it that you deem we have violated torah?
 

 

"And the ancient rabbbinical command that has been changed, that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th."

reply:
--what has this got to do with it?
 

Hi Beryl -

 

The ONLY way The Jews observe the 14th is The Fast of the Firstborn during the daylight portion of the 14th, the firstborn who died the night of the 14th, The Passover, not the night of the 15th, the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

You are calling The 7 days of The Feast of Unleavened Bread "Passover" this is inaccurate.

 

The Passover is one day - the 14th of Abib., you are ignoring the first Holy Day which pictures out the first step in The LORD's plan of redemption.

 

Like it or not there are seven steps in The LORD's plan not six.

 

1.  Passover - pictures the sacrifice of Christ

2.  The Feast of Unleavened Bread - pictures the removal of sin from the lives of The Spirit Filled, i.e. repentance and the taking in of pure doctrines

3.  The Feast of Weeks - celebrates the founding of The Church of God and the bestowing of The Holy Spirit

4.  The Feast of Trumpets - pictures the return of Christ

5.  The Day of Atonement - shows the remorse the vast majority of Israel and Judah are going to feel during the second resurrection

6.  The Feast of Tabernacles - shows us the 1000 year rule of The LORD and the second resurrection

7.  The Last Great Day - the last day of the 1000 years and the beginning of eternity when The Father will descend with The New Jerusalem and rule the Earth with His Son YHVH.

 

Your man made days have led you into confusion and you are leaving out one of The Holy days, the 14th of Abib, look at a Jewish Calender - you don't observe the 14th as a Holy Day.

 

They call they 14th "Erev Pesach".

 

Wrong

 

The 14th is The Passover, this is when The LORD passed over in Egypt, the night of the 14th.

 

Erev Pesach is the night of the 13th when they used to remove the leaven, before they quit observing the Passover.

 

The 15th is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, a totally different Holy Day (for 7 days) and this is the same mistake they made in King Josiah's days.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

beryl etanah said:

 
"Hi Beryl -In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.    Exodus 12.18
Count it on your fingers, no leaven on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st
The Jews have totally abandoned the observance of the 14th, The Passover,  same as they did before King Josiah restored The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib, not the 15th, which is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread."

reply:
--the Jewry never abandon the observance of 14th from the second temple period up to present.  
 

"The Feast of Unleavened Bread is from the 15th - 21st - The Jews still observe this commanded Holy Day, but the first of the 7 commanded Holy Days, The Passover , on the 14th, has been forsaken."

reply:
--that is why i have been querying how pesach "ought" be celebrated, for we have been celebrating it the right way. if anything that lacks that is what i am waiting from you: what, how, and why. for i do not see anything scripturally anomalous in my people's practices.
 

 

"4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Leviticus 23.4-6"

reply:
--exactly that is what we are doing. what else does it need you to know.
 

 
"The LORD commands 7 Holy Days, but The Jews only observe 6 of the seven, they have blended the first two into one, I included the quote from The Jewish Encyclopedia on that page if you bothered to read it."

reply:
--okay i'll take your statement saying "they have blended the first two into one". can you expound more on it? how is it that you deem we have violated torah?
 

 

"And the ancient rabbbinical command that has been changed, that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th."

reply:
--what has this got to do with it?
 

Jim,

i currently lost the other internet channel i can only get online in my office where i am busy, and this machine i am working on has over-clocking problem it shutsdown suddenly losing all unsaved texts.

i get now what you mean by saying "Jews erred" and i can easily explain why. i'll be back when time affords. probably after this shabbat.

shabbat shalom,

beryl

ps. i have been off and on this week with this problem and i am sorry you have to wait a time.

 

 

by the way if you were only a talmud reader i would have only pointed you the portions that can enlighten you concerning the issues you raised, there is full exposition over the matter in tractate pesachim 2a-5b (if i still recall that correctly).

 

anyway, time affords, i shall then expound to you our side from the basis of the Sacred Scriptures, not from the basis of tradition.

 

Jim Wright said:

Hi Beryl -

 

The ONLY way The Jews observe the 14th is The Fast of the Firstborn during the daylight portion of the 14th, the firstborn who died the night of the 14th, The Passover, not the night of the 15th, the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

You are calling The 7 days of The Feast of Unleavened Bread "Passover" this is inaccurate.

 

The Passover is one day - the 14th of Abib., you are ignoring the first Holy Day which pictures out the first step in The LORD's plan of redemption.

 

Like it or not there are seven steps in The LORD's plan not six.

 

1.  Passover - pictures the sacrifice of Christ

2.  The Feast of Unleavened Bread - pictures the removal of sin from the lives of The Spirit Filled, i.e. repentance and the taking in of pure doctrines

3.  The Feast of Weeks - celebrates the founding of The Church of God and the bestowing of The Holy Spirit

4.  The Feast of Trumpets - pictures the return of Christ

5.  The Day of Atonement - shows the remorse the vast majority of Israel and Judah are going to feel during the second resurrection

6.  The Feast of Tabernacles - shows us the 1000 year rule of The LORD and the second resurrection

7.  The Last Great Day - the last day of the 1000 years and the beginning of eternity when The Father will descend with The New Jerusalem and rule the Earth with His Son YHVH.

 

Your man made days have led you into confusion and you are leaving out one of The Holy days, the 14th of Abib, look at a Jewish Calender - you don't observe the 14th as a Holy Day.

 

They call they 14th "Erev Pesach".

 

Wrong

 

The 14th is The Passover, this is when The LORD passed over in Egypt, the night of the 14th.

 

Erev Pesach is the night of the 13th when they used to remove the leaven, before they quit observing the Passover.

 

The 15th is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, a totally different Holy Day (for 7 days) and this is the same mistake they made in King Josiah's days.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

beryl etanah said:

 
"Hi Beryl -In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.    Exodus 12.18
Count it on your fingers, no leaven on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st
The Jews have totally abandoned the observance of the 14th, The Passover,  same as they did before King Josiah restored The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib, not the 15th, which is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread."

reply:
--the Jewry never abandon the observance of 14th from the second temple period up to present.  
 

"The Feast of Unleavened Bread is from the 15th - 21st - The Jews still observe this commanded Holy Day, but the first of the 7 commanded Holy Days, The Passover , on the 14th, has been forsaken."

reply:
--that is why i have been querying how pesach "ought" be celebrated, for we have been celebrating it the right way. if anything that lacks that is what i am waiting from you: what, how, and why. for i do not see anything scripturally anomalous in my people's practices.
 

 

"4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Leviticus 23.4-6"

reply:
--exactly that is what we are doing. what else does it need you to know.
 

 
"The LORD commands 7 Holy Days, but The Jews only observe 6 of the seven, they have blended the first two into one, I included the quote from The Jewish Encyclopedia on that page if you bothered to read it."

reply:
--okay i'll take your statement saying "they have blended the first two into one". can you expound more on it? how is it that you deem we have violated torah?
 

 

"And the ancient rabbbinical command that has been changed, that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th."

reply:
--what has this got to do with it?
 

 

okay,  the internet provider has fixed my drop line.  thanks G-d (BH) i am online though one machine has overclocking issue.

---------
 

Jim, from the recent posts you made it seems that the main issues you raised against rabbinics is found in this last one. so i will settle this first. although the last portion needs further clarification from you.
 

you said:
 

"The leaven had to be removed on the 13th, the Passover lambs were beinging slaughtered when the 14th began."
 

reply:
 
--there is no divine interdict against leaven on the 13th and the night of 14th. all that you have thought out and read from the encyclopedia at nullifying chametz about these hours are but mere rabbinic instructions seeking to ensure the standards set out in the written torah are fulfilled by everyone. as such therefore these precepts are subject to change if law and reason so demands a changing, and these are given to leniency in their keeping as compared to clear Scriptural instructions. for as a matter of principle: in case of doubt rabbinical laws are applied in leniency, but where the law is scriptural it is applied strictly.
 
--again, there is no written mandate to search chametz, for under the divine law nullification is enough:
 
the rabbis say: "therefore it informs us that since the search for leaven is required only by Rabbinical law, for by Scriptural law mere nullification suffices for it" [Pesachim 4a] and in another it says "— Is then the searching for leaven Scriptural? surely it is only Rabbinical, for by Scriptural law mere annulment is sufficient." [Pesachim 10a]
 
--there is difference between 'searching' and 'putting away'. if the sacred scripture has only said: "in searching thou shalt search" or in similar tenor then 'searching' indeed has become mandatory; but the sacred text commands it this way:
"neither shall there be leaven seen with thee, in all thy borders" [Exodus 13:7] so that putting all away with nothing left and honestly declaring this fact is legally sufficient in keeping the law. moreover, there is no written stipulation as to actual time "when" chametz are actually annulled from all thy borders except the erev of the fourteenth (14th) as we shall hereafter take up to discuss.
 
***
 

you said:

"Josiah was slaughtering lambs on the 14th, the leaven had to already been removed."
 

reply:

before all, may i ask: when and what time did Josiah slaughter the lamb, in the evening of 13th? in the morning of 14th? there are only  guessings and nothing more.
 
let me say it in simple: the putting away of leaven is a precept attached to the prohibition of eating leavened bread for it is written 'seven days shall there be no leaven in your houses for whosoever eateth that which is leavened that soul shall be cut off'; and the prohibition of eating leavened bread is attached to the the precept of eating unleavened bread because it is written 'ye shall eat nothing leavened, in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread'. therefore, such provisions are dependent to each other, for you cannot eat unleavened bread with leaven in thy borders, nor are you permitted to put away leaven and continue eating leavened bread in your house: these three precepts of "putting away", "not eating leavened" and "eating of unleavened" are co-existent and co-terminus. whereas, with respect to point of time, eating of unleavened bread becomes mandatory only in the evening of 14th for it is written 'on the fourteenth day of the month at even ye shall eat unleavened bread'. therefore, it is in the evening also that leaven has become prohibited in all dwellings, for this law being dependent to the other must co-exist and is co-terminal with the other also as evident from the rest of the remaining passages in the bible.
 
--come ask: but at what point in the evening? evening is a broad period of day for it begins at declining of the sun (7th or 8th hour) and it ends when darkness comes! a span of about 5 hours is too broad to prone us to errors? also it is written 'at even ye shall eat unleavened bread' so it is the time of supper? -no not the time of supper, but still it has to be within that evening, as it is written:
 
"ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day... and shall slaughter it at even" [Exodus 12:6] and in another it is commanded "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven" [Exodus 34:25] it says there at the first: ושחטו אתו to fix the time by the slaughtering for it is the time of shedding the "blood" of sacrifice; it is thus this time of that evening when leaven has become an absolute interdict because it says "ye shall not offer the blood with leaven". there is no other point of the day when pesach sacrifice may be done but בין הערבים in the evening: that is, in the evening of 14th (not of 13th, not of 15th). to this precept the law is clear enough to the lay.
 
--but it says "evening"? no problem for we all define "what" an evening is. but "when" does an evening becomes acceptably 'evening' according to G-d's ordering of human affairs? has The Merciful provided a concrete sign when evening has certainly come? --yes, for it is written:  "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even" [Numbers 28:4] the offering of the evening tamid marks the beginning of erev, and after this the passover sacrifice may be offered biyn ha'arbayim.
 
***

 
continued:
 

you said:

"The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight,
...
In practise this "bediḳat ḥameẓ" was effected as follows: As soon as night (on the 13th) had completely set in, the father of the household ("ba'al ha-bayit") lighted a plain wax taper, took a spoon and a brush, or three or four entire feathers, and, after having deposited a piece of bread in some noticeable place, as on a window-sill, to mark the beginning of the search, made the complete round of the house and gathered up all the leavened bread that was in it."
 

my comment:

 --this is rabbinic regulation which is very much helpful at ensuring the written precepts are done properly. however, it is important to remind you that we are in discussion over dogmatic points of the two festivals, these regulatory procedures and rabbinic time table have no written mandate in the torah and therefore should not constitute and are themselves not acceptable as premise to prove something which The Holy One otherwise did not expressly command.
 
***


 you said:


"And what do you mean prove you support a Aviv 15th Passover - that is why you have been attacking me + the truth for days - in a fultile eforrt to prove that The Passover is not on the 14th as the rabbis claim - look at any Jewish Calender - it says Passover is the 15th.
They don't call the 14th Passover - they call it "Passover Eve".


reply:

i have never said anything like claiming that 15th is passover and 14th is not. every knowledgeable Jew knows what Exodus 12:6 is talking about. and in fact from the mere reading of calendar that 14th is "Erev Pesach" we know it is Nisan 14 not 15 and all the things that happened that evening: you only need to ask a little Jewish child about that. the main obstacle probably is in the mind of the non-jews  because most westerners always think that "evening" is dark and therefore it is night, not daytime.
 
***
 

you said:


"They have forsaken The Passover which is the 14th and they call The Feast of Unleavened Bread The Passover"


reply:
 
this complaint owes to misunderstanding of torah. first of all let me remind everyone that torah keeping is a matter of doing, not a matter of naming. for you can give the uncircumcised a nice Jewish name but still he is a non-jew; but he an uncircumcised that does all the law of Moshe is better off in heaven and earth than he of a jewish mother who breaks the law. so do not make us a transgressor by the mere naming of days in the calendar, for The Merciful One sees the heart and actions and can mention a thousand names for anything. to us ערב פסח is pesach, and it is still daytime not a dark night, it is not unleavened bread either, although it is the spirit that the unleavened bread is trying to commemorate.
 
you said we have forsaken, and what is it that we failed to do such that we forsook the duty to commemorate the event? through my replies above you have enough to realize that halfway i have done the answering for this last accusation from you. but before i continue to answer this one it is more helpful to everyone if you will first clarify your complaint or accusation by answering my question.
 

please allow my bold but small letters for clarity:

what is it that we fail to do in the fourteenth that shows we have forsaken something mandatory from our G-d?

list your answer clearly.
 
todah veshabbat shalom,
 
beryl
 

Hi Beryl -

 

The Torah commands there be no leaven in the homes on the 14th, the only way to acomplish this is to remove it completly on the 13th, whether it be the night of the 13th as The Jews use to do before they abandoned The Passover, or the day of the 13th would be fine too, as long as it is gone before the even between the 13th + the 14th when the Passover lamb is to be slain.

I will follow Christ's example and weed out the leaven the night before The Passover starts.

 

Thinking Passover begins at the end of the 14th does not match up with the exodus account in The Torah.

 

This is why finding the lost Torah Scroll allowed for the correction of the oral traditions in Josiah's day, and it is the disregarding of the Torah account which allows for the forsaking of The Passover these days also.

 

They held the lambs until the 14th was about to begin, they slew it, drained the blood, divided the meat, put the blood on the doorways, went inside, ate the lamb + destroyed the leftovers, and stayed in their homes until sunrise as The LORD commanded.

 

The gathered in Rameses during the daylight portion of the 14th, they were not all there when The LORD passed over, they were in their homes all over Egypt. And they took spoil on there way there, and as they left Egypt.

 

They left Egypt the night of the 15th led by a pillar of fire, "the night to be much observed", the night after The Passover which is a full 24 hour long Holy Day.

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.       Numbers 33.3

 

The LORD "passed over" the night of the 14th, this is not being observed by the Jews except they mourn the Egyptian dead in "The Fast of the Firstborn".

 

I bet it irks The LORD that The Jews are not observing His first Holy Day, but rather are mourning the pagans He struck dead in order to free them.

 

Think about it

 

Thinking the Passover begins at the end of the 14th does not match up with the timeline of Christ's sacrifice either.

 

On Wed. the 13th of Abib Christ and the Apostles rented The Upper Room to prepare for The Passover. Christ performed the search for leaven and found Judas Iscariot who was removed from his Apostleship that night.

 

They took the bread and the wine, Christ was arrested, beaten, tried, and put on the cross on the afternoon of the 13th as the apx. 250,000 lanbs were being slaughtered in preparation for The Passover.

 

And Christ was put into the tomb as the sunset starting The Passover.

 

You and The Jews are teaching that Israelites put the blood on their doorways and then instead of staying in their homes as commanded that they left Egypt.

 

Think about it - try to draw out a timeline, you and The Jews are forsaking a ful 24 hour Holy Day called "The Passover" on the 14th of Abib.

 

You are taking a 7 day long Holy day called "The Feast of Unleavened Bread" from the 15th - 21st, and calling it "The Passover".

 

These are two separate Holy Days.

 

 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.      Leviticus 23.4-6

 

It is true

 

Going with the oral traditions leads to the forsaking of The True Passover, in did in Josiah's days and it it has done so in these days also.

 

Blessings -

 

Jim

 

.

 

 

Jim,

the pesach cannot be in between 13th and 14th. check your bible.

i have provided a thorough answer to yirmiyahu's "matt. 26:20" question, if you visit the thread that might be of help too.

 

i don't care how deep is your hatred against the Jews, this is evident from your frequent calumny throughout this thread of yours. a thousand slanders against my people cannot help make your error correct. blame the Jews, calumniate us, anything you like, but it cannot make your poor opinion the right one. i am backed by the NT and the apostles to my passover practices (read the quarto-deciman debate from the early church history, the debate should rightly put the Jewish dates into what it was at the time of Yeshua); yes, my tradition is the confirmed one, by the presence of Yeshua in this particular doctrine; mine is backed by pharisaic and apostolic traditions, yours is from your private interpretation, the encyclopedia, and from no one else other than that.

 

shavua tov bro,

 

beryl

 


 

"Think about it - try to draw out a timeline, you and The Jews are forsaking a ful 24 hour Holy Day called "The Passover" on the 14th of Abib."
 

reply:

 

--where in the scripture is it required to count Passover in the measure of 24 hours? say your quote right now if you ever have.

--it is written: "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover." (Leviticus 23:5) it begins "at evening" of the fourteenth, so there is no way you can put that evening into the 13th to complete a count of 24hours backward (because the law is clear about the date); from the eve of 14th you can neither add another 24 hours henceforth as it will encroach another important day, the 15th, which is the first day of unleavened bread. from the written law itself your 24hour requirement is pure impossibility.

 

"You are taking a 7 day long Holy day called "The Feast of Unleavened Bread" from the 15th - 21st, and calling it "The Passover"
 

reply:

 

--not 7 but 8 for certainly it is what Moshe has taught. was there a seven day unleavened bread apart and separate from the passover evening onward? none. if a Jew says 'passover' he means the entire season; if a jew says 'feast of unleavened bread' he means that beginning the passover. that is very clear from the teachings of Moshe.
 
--unleavened bread was instituted mainly to commemorate an event beginning the passover, Exodus 12:12-15:
 
"For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel."
 
two feasts but only one season and singular event.
 
--the passover and 7 days of unleavened bread are but a single memorial in as single season: it is written:

 
 בראשן בארבעה עשר יום לחדש בערב תאכלו מצת, עד יום האחד ועשרים לחדש בערב
 

"in the first in fourteenth day of the month at even shalt thou eat unleavened bread until the first and twentieth day of the month at even."
 

the first day of the leaven memorial begins in passover, the fourteenth day, until twenty first day of the month; throughout unleavened bread is to be eaten. just count your fingers from what the written law has spoken, you shall have 14-21, evening to evening, a total of eight, and that is because the unleavened bread was instituted mainly to commemorate what passover has achieved for israel (v.12:15) this being the mystery that won the exodus from Egypt (see Exodus 13:15). there is only one event in one season that the two feasts commemorate: that is, the unleavened bread is a memorial to passover, and the victory of passover is remembered in seven days of unleavened bread. what G-d has put together you shall not put asunder.
 
hope that helps.
 

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