Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Hi Beryl -

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.    Exodus 12.18

Count it on your fingers, no leaven on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st

 

The Jews have totally abandoned the observance of the 14th, The Passover,  same as they did before King Josiah restored The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib, not the 15th, which is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

The Feast of Unleavened Bread is from the 15th - 21st - The Jews still observe this commanded Holy Day, but the first of the 7 commanded Holy Days, The Passover , on the 14th, has been forsaken.

 

 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Leviticus 23.4-6

 

The LORD commands 7 Holy Days, but The Jews only observe 6 of the seven, they have blended the first two into one, I included the quote from The Jewish Encyclopedia on that page if you bothered to read it.

 

And the ancient rabbbinical command that has been changed, that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th.

 

Jim



beryl etanah said:

 

Jim you said:

 

You are the one acting like an idiot and this responce shows it clearly.

The Torah commands there be no leaven in the home on the 14th, you might want to read your Torah.

comment:

--okay okay mr. lumborgine.

can you post here and now that divine injunction that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th?

 

torah says:

Exodus 12:15, "Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel." --this precisely points to 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread when absolute riddance of leaven is compulsory and punishable.

 

while to the contrary, the prophet, His Holiness St. Lumberguy says:

There shall be no leaven in the home on the 14th”

--now, your holiness, tell me what penalty shall you impose against any member here who happens to have a leaven in his house at about the fourth hour in the morning of Nisan 14th, and proffer now your divine authority when and why. otherwise you are again found as full of lies, a father of false teaching.

 

--you owe to the audience to point them from which text of torah did you get that? be honest. do not make up things and make The Holy One (BH) your mouth piece. it is evil to do that, be reminded.

*********

Hi Beryl -

Seems to me the blame for forsaking The Passover goes right to the oral traditions.

 

What else was there??

 

They had lost The Written Torah - and following the oral traditions led the people to forsake The Passover.

 

And that is probably to blame of the oral traditions too.

 

You think maybe they relied on the oral so hard that they pushed the written Torah right out of the picture??

 

And look at the spiritual condition of the people while they did not have the written Torah - they put a statue of Baal in The Temple and and a grove to Asherah next to it.

 

The written Torah was found and it led to the restoration of The Passover, obviously the oral tradition dropped the ball.

 

And you seem to keep taking exception to the idea that the leaven had to be removed on the 13th.

 

Do you think they would sacrifice the lambs before the leaven was removed??

 

Josiah was slaughtering lambs on the 14th, the leaven had to have been removed the night before, just as The Jews were doing until they forsook The Passover a few hundred years ago

 

As recorded in The Jewish Encyclopedia

 

Jim

 

 



beryl etanah said:

yirmiyahu, i have replied you already in your thread, please do read it and i hope that should open up your mind.

 

allow me also to intervene clarifying few points in your post (though) for ben Avraham, somewhere it says there:

 

This thread is about when Scriptures say Passover is: if Jim or I am wrong, why not prove it with Scriptures? 

 

comment:

i hope you mean that. my response to your thread employ merely bible passages. i did not base my arguments on what is very clear from mishna and gommara.

 

Seems to me that anytime the Rabbinic viewpoint is not proven by Scriptures accusations of anti-Semitism are forthcoming.  I am pro-Semite, just as any true Believer should be.

 

comment:

actually, it is fair to caution you and everyone that rabbinic materials are deposits of traditions spanning by centuries, to say the least it is not a set of opinions by a single man, nay by simpletons, therefore, it is only proper to hold enough reservations when you did not find out what they are talking about.

 

you said "Seems to me..." and i'd say yes it "seems to you": the ostensible, or seeming, is the height that an average mind can attain at first and second reading of talmud, but if you are resourceful enough you will certainly find out that 90%+/- of primary and secondary arguments proffered in a given halachic objections are indeed based on biblical texts advanced as ordinary human ratiocination. i can show this to you if needed. however, since it is not the manner of rabbis to say quotations at length it is very often the reader goes to assuming that they are merely man's creation. but no. it must dawn to the fair biblical student's mind as he progresses in talmud that reason and divine mandate are the principal  ingredients of rabbinic material: principles that the true intellectual person can appreciate.

 

to say that "rabbinic viewpoint is not proven by scriptures" is one thing; and "failing to understand rabbinic viewpoint" is another; the first is not true, the second is almost often true.

 

hope this helps.

 

beryl

 

 

Beryl -

 

The leaven had to be removed on the 13th, the Passover lambs were beinging slaughtered when the 14th began.

 

Josiah was slaughtering lambs on the 14th, the leaven had to already been removed.

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight,

 

In practise this "bediḳat ḥameẓ" was effected as follows: As soon as night (on the 13th) had completely set in, the father of the household ("ba'al ha-bayit") lighted a plain wax taper, took a spoon and a brush, or three or four entire feathers, and, after having deposited a piece of bread in some noticeable place, as on a window-sill, to mark the beginning of the search, made the complete round of the house and gathered up all the leavened bread that was in it.

 

And what do you mean prove you support a Aviv 15th Passover - that is why you have been attacking me + the truth for days - in a fultile eforrt to prove that The Passover is not on the 14th as the rabbis claim - look at any Jewish Calender - it says Passover is the 15th.

They don't call the 14th Passover - they call it "Passover Eve".

They have forsaken The Passover which is the 14th and they call The Feast of Unleavened Bread The Passover

beryl etanah said:

Jim you also said:

 

The only way to comply is to have the leaven removed before the 14th begins i.e. the 13th”

reply:

this is a man-made doctrine. your own man-made doctrine. you are a good inventor of poor laws.

 

But since The Jews no longer observe The Passover on the 14th there is no need to remove the leavening on the 13th, in their mind.”

 
 

reply:

an accusation flowing out of ignorance.

my point in asking what, when, why and how Pesach and Chag Hamatzah is to be celebrated is to pinpoint this very issue. you cannot substantiate the accusation easily until, and only until, you can show to the audience that you have the needed wisdom to judge over the matters, assuring them your mastery over what, when, why and how the feasts are to be celebrated according to divine precepts.

 

but as much as you only have your mouth but failed to provide the proper answers solicited hereof, it stands that you are only a noisy gong.

*********

 

REMINDER:

YOU OWE the following:

--substantiate your accusation that i said Pesach is nisan 15th;

--substantiate your statement that no-leaven is compulsory at the beginning of 14th.

 

goodluck your holiness.

 

beryl

 

They didn't call themselves Nazarenes in the Bible either, though. Both Nazarene and Christian and Messianic are acceptable titles, given to them by others, but BIBLICALLY, they were called Believers (Moaminim) and Brethren (Achim).

http://nazarenespace.com/forum/topics/who-were-the-minim-and-who-we...

Either way, Jim is clearly using the dictionary definition of Christian, as in "one who follows Christ (Yeshua)," which there is nothing wrong with.

mikha El said:

Most likely then they, as the ones in our "Bibles" were being CALLED X-tain and were actually Nazarenes as verified from many sources. Why you would continue to do as the misguided did in the 1st century is beyond me. To each there own I suppose.

Interestingly, ancient church father, Epiphanius, argued vehemently that "Nazarenes" was used as a term of endearment,  and that they first began to call themselves Jessenes, and then began to be called Christians.

Jessenes, as in, followers of Jesse. :-)

Apparently my followers came about 2000 years before me.

Onieu bahn Duid said:

Interestingly, ancient church father, Epiphanius, argued vehemently that "Nazarenes" was used as a term of endearment,  and that they first began to call themselves Jessenes, and then began to be called Christians.

well, we should trust and follow the example of the scriptures more so than external sources.
the Believers appropriated for themselves apparently many of the titles invented by others.

Onieu bahn Duid said:

Interestingly, ancient church father, Epiphanius, argued vehemently that "Nazarenes" was used as a term of endearment,  and that they first began to call themselves Jessenes, and then began to be called Christians.

i was just adding it as an interesting contribution.  in no way should his witness be accepted as superior to scripture.

yes jesse, you are my hero

Jim, I found a translation mistake in the Stone Tanach for Deut 16:4 which illustrates your point that the Passover is the 14th and also a day of unleavened bread.  The Hebrew text is :

ולא־ילין מן־הבשר אשר תזבח בערב ביום הראשון לבקר׃

and none of the flesh which you slaughtered at evening on the first day shall remain until morning (my translation).

The Stone Tanach, inexplicably, has:

nor shall any of the flesh that you slaughter on the afternoon before the first day remain overnight until morning.

so apparently "bayom harishon" means "before the first day" and not "in the first day" like we would have expected.

It is strange how when you understand when the Biblical day starts you can see how the errors endemic to Rabbinism cause them to mistranslate certain verses.


Jim Wright said:

Hi Beryl -

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.    Exodus 12.18

Count it on your fingers, no leaven on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st

 

The Jews have totally abandoned the observance of the 14th, The Passover,  same as they did before King Josiah restored The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib, not the 15th, which is the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

The Feast of Unleavened Bread is from the 15th - 21st - The Jews still observe this commanded Holy Day, but the first of the 7 commanded Holy Days, The Passover , on the 14th, has been forsaken.

 

 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Leviticus 23.4-6

 

The LORD commands 7 Holy Days, but The Jews only observe 6 of the seven, they have blended the first two into one, I included the quote from The Jewish Encyclopedia on that page if you bothered to read it.

 

And the ancient rabbbinical command that has been changed, that there be no leaven in the home on the 14th.

 

Jim


Hi Solomon -

 

A Christian is a person who has recieved The Holy Spirit, which writes God's Law upon the heart and the mind of the believer under the provisions of The New Covenant:

 

 4.  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 5.  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 6.  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7.  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 8.  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9.  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.        1 Corinthians 8.4-9

 

Those who claim to serve Christ but refuse to work God's Law in their lives are called "workers of iniquity", the word "iniquity" meaning NO LAW and He says He does not know them:

 

21.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.    Matthew 7.21-23

 

They are not Christians no matter how many times the lie is repeated

 

They are the fruit of the many false prophets Yeshua prophesied there would come:

 

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ12.html

 

From my site if your interested

Blessings - Jim

 



Solomon Avar said:

They didn't call themselves Nazarenes in the Bible either, though. Both Nazarene and Christian and Messianic are acceptable titles, given to them by others, but BIBLICALLY, they were called Believers (Moaminim) and Brethren (Achim).

http://nazarenespace.com/forum/topics/who-were-the-minim-and-who-we...

Either way, Jim is clearly using the dictionary definition of Christian, as in "one who follows Christ (Yeshua)," which there is nothing wrong with.

mikha El said:

Most likely then they, as the ones in our "Bibles" were being CALLED X-tain and were actually Nazarenes as verified from many sources. Why you would continue to do as the misguided did in the 1st century is beyond me. To each there own I suppose.

lol yes!

Onieu bahn Duid said:

yes jesse, you are my hero

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