Nazarene Space

Hello All -
 
This matter came up in a different discussion and Beryl asked me to make it a separate discussion.
 
The Jews no longer observe The Passover, which is the 14th of Abib / Nissan.
 
They only observe the The Feast of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st.
 
 4.  These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
 5.  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
 6.  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.    Leviticus 23.4-6
 
I have documented all the relevant facts from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia here:
 
 
If I am in error please show me where, for I don't like being wrong about anything
 
In the exodus they slaughtered the lamb right at the end of the 13th/begining of the 14th and they were to stay in their homes all night long on the 14th, they gathered in Ramses during the day of the 14th and left Egypt in the night of the 15th.
 
 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.           Numbers 33.3
 
In Jesus day He took the bread and the wine, was arrested, tried, died, and was in the grave on the 13th = The Day of Preparation for The Passover.
 
 14.  And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
 15.  But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.     John 19.14-15
 
The Passover was eaten after nightfall which began the new Day = the 14th - The Passover
 
27.  Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
 28.  Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
 29.  Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?    John 18.27-29
 
Anyhow I present more evidence on that page above, please examine and show me where I have gone wrong.
 
Many Blessings -
 
Jim

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Jim you said the following:

 
 

Hi Beryl -

Oh I see - you can't be bothered to examine the evidence:

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18.13”

 

reply:

--your duty was to complete the post as solicited on the forum; if you were not heared by anyone it is because you did not say what was asked. i did not answer you, i was waiting for your duty, read again what i posted above, there i said this--

you cannot simply make your self upright by simply talking evil against the rabbinic side (i have not yet spoken about our practice and i shall after you make your self clear. but i will not if you will continue with your muddy thoughts and unspecific suggestions.)”

 

--but since you were afraid being treated like an idiot you forced again to put a link in the last post.

 

 

I was going to go through your points one by one, but I keep hitting the character limit”

 

reply:

--then use your common sense by posting them piece by piece, i think i have set you an example already how i did it in other threads.

 

 

Here is the page:

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

Examine it or bring even more shame upon yourself”

 

reply:

--why should it shame me? it is your duty to substantiate your arguments ON THE forum. remember this is a Forum, not a link site. have good manners please. you cannot force any member to follow you outside since here you are not supposed to advertize other sites. i keep that discipline. do yours.

 

 

 

 


 

Bring up one point at a time and I will address it

The fact is you are the one who has abandoned the ancient practises, there is a reason why they use to remove the leavening on the night of the 13th:

The proper removal of ḥameẓ ("bi'ur ḥameẓ") constitutes one of the chief concerns of rabbinical law and practise. Great care is enjoined in the inspection and cleaning of all possible nooks and corners, lest ḥameẓ be overlooked. The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection by candle-light or lamplight, not by moonlight, though it was not necessary to examine by candle-light places that were open to the sunlight.

 

reply:

--small knowledge is dangerous, you read but you did not understand what it says. removing of chametz become ultimate (answerable to transgression) only after the erev (daily) sacrifice of 14th is done (for such mandate pronounces that 'erev' has come, and that pesach sacrifice is deemed due and to follow immediately marking the solemnity of the holy day), but searching of chametz can be done anytime before that hour, on the mediaeval times such effort was even moved to daylight of 13th to avert undue suspicion from the gentiles. how greatly ignorant you are. if i wouldn't search chametz on 13th but nothing is left of it before erev of 14th tell us here and now WHAT SIN HAVE I COMMITTED? (i know you cannot provide any law to it because such thing is merely of your own invention out of your own confusion. there is no such law obliging any one jew to be completely free from chatmetz on the eve of 13th or 14th for such law only exists in the mind of idiots like you, but not in the written torah.)

 

--your material said: “The night preceding the 14th of Nisan was especially set apart for this inspection” but it does not say it is a principal halachic mandate. in short, it is not written in the torah, and although it is a worthy custom it is not to be counted as a law. you must not confuse your self between what a minhag is and what halacha is. but i don't hold you accountable for things that are profound under the law since aside from the fact that you are not a born keeper of law your reading ability is obviously pitiful and unfit to tackle difficult legal points, nay much on prophecies.

 

 

"http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11933-passover

And read it to the bottom you will see they know 2 separate Holy Days (The Passover 1 day + The Feast of Unleavened Bread - 7 days) have been joined into one.”

 

reply:

--let me tell you: i do not need to read from any book what i lived since i was bat mitzva'ed. it is you rather who should improve your reading comprehension. and curtail a little of your pride and vanity.

 

 

 

The LORD says The Passover is on the 14th”

 

reply:

--correct. that has always been our appointed date. no argument. from the written torah it is clear that the two chagim are inter-related, two different (separate) mysteries that have to be celebrated as one in succession (i.e. the strings of beyn ha'arbayim and lailot are to be strictly followed as matters halachic;) there was no chag hamatzah if there was no pesach. and for this reason, while the temple stood (including the moment of Yeshua) when the erev of 14th comes (indicated by the erev sacrifice of the day, for there are to be two sacrifices, boqer and erev) another sacrifice (a third one) the pesach sacrifice has to follow immediately and the lambs slain according to registrants that very time of the day, beyn ha'arbayim as it is written.

 

You say it is on the 15th”

 

reply:

--point here and now which post i ever SAID IT IS ON THE 15th

--if you cannot point this to the readers then you are found to be a LIAR.

 
 

I know who to believe”

 

reply:

--the Jews have better to believe than you do: Adonay Eloheynu Adonay Echad!

--what you are making up to believe in your mind is your erroneous thought; you erred because you did not understand what is written in the book of torah. that is the natural consequence for relying mainly on PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS, a means of instruction that is unqualified by Kefa's teachings (2 Peter 1:20-21) and is very dangerous as illustrated in history from Luther.

 

 

And if you are not going to accept Christ's example in some of the matters, well that is your problem.”

 

reply:

--every Jew today, messianic or not, so long as he celebrates pesach and matzah in the orthodox way is following the example of Yeshua in His earthly moment. so, i have no problem, as much as Yeshua and apostles had no problem with how the pharisees and scribes celebrated the appointment.

--it is rather your problem if no one will listen to you. :-)

 

 

You are one obnoxious woman.

reply:

thank you for such an admiration. what smells like an incense to heaven can be obnoxious to the devil.

 

 

You insult me dozens of times, even calling me a gentile (twice!!) and then whine when I put some truth in front of you.

reply:

--i did not have other definition of the word save that which is found in the tanakh. if you were a Jew by blood i am sorry.

 

You ask a question and you complain when I give an answer, that you agree with, acting like I was trying to tell you how to act when I was just answering your question.

reply:

this is a forum, not a link site. expound your thesis and substantiate them here, not outside. that is your duty. don't be lazy. keep some amount of netiquette.

 

 

I have a job and 100 e-mails in my box and you can't be bothered to even read the page that this thread is about.

reply:

--oh that's a volume of work... you can hire me as a secretary? if you need one?

 

 

And a few of these rants you have been cutting loose with make me question your mental stability.

reply:

--it is you who have been ranting. i am not.

--control your self. be objective in your thinking.

 

 

Examine this and show any errors, IF YOU CAN:

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

reply:

okay, for the sake of a lazy opponent, i shall visit the link someday and provide you some comments. but that is not a matter of duty to any one member here including me. so you have to wait for my free time as i am a busy person too.

 

************

but you have not answered my questions above.

 

Beryl -

 

Common sense shows me that I would be stupid to write it all out again since I have already done all that work - if you can't be bothered to examine the evidence then you will not keep a proper Passover until The Messiah comes and forces you to do so in the second resurrection.

 

You have no bussinness taking the bread and the wine on the 13th, Christ's blood has nothing to do with you (yet) why should I try to talk you into obeying The LORD when you prefer the precepts of men over those of The LORD?

 

Common sense says you are a waste of my time - my message is for those who seek truth - you don't fit the bill.

 

Go ahead respond again, bring more shame upon yourself.

 

Jim 

beryl etanah said:

 

 


Jim you said the following:

 
 

Hi Beryl -

Oh I see - you can't be bothered to examine the evidence:

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18.13”

 

reply:

--your duty was to complete the post as solicited on the forum; if you were not heared by anyone it is because you did not say what was asked. i did not answer you, i was waiting for your duty, read again what i posted above, there i said this--

you cannot simply make your self upright by simply talking evil against the rabbinic side (i have not yet spoken about our practice and i shall after you make your self clear. but i will not if you will continue with your muddy thoughts and unspecific suggestions.)”

 

--but since you were afraid being treated like an idiot you forced again to put a link in the last post.

 

 

I was going to go through your points one by one, but I keep hitting the character limit”

 

reply:

--then use your common sense by posting them piece by piece, i think i have set you an example already how i did it in other threads.

 

 

Here is the page:

http://lumberguy.net/FAQ15.html

Examine it or bring even more shame upon yourself”

 

reply:

--why should it shame me? it is your duty to substantiate your arguments ON THE forum. remember this is a Forum, not a link site. have good manners please. you cannot force any member to follow you outside since here you are not supposed to advertize other sites. i keep that discipline. do yours.

 

 

Beryl -

 

You are the one acting like an idiot and this responce shows it clearly.

 

The Torah commands there be no leaven in the home on the 14th, you might want to read your Torah.

 

The only way to comply is to have the leaven removed before the 14th begins i.e. the 13th

 

But since The Jews no longer observe The Passover on the 14th there is no need to remove the leavening on the 13th, in their mind.

 

Jim

Beryl -

 

Look on a Jewish Calender - The Jews do not observe The Passover on the 14th - they only oberve The Feast of Unleavened bread from the 15th - 21st.

 

You have totally done away with the first of The LORD's commanded Holy Days and you are calling the second by the name of the first.

 

If the ancient Israelites did things they way you are they would lost all their firstborn, read the account in Exodus - they stayed in their homes the night The LORD passed over, the 14th - they gathered in Ramasas the daylight portion of the 14th, and they left Egypt the next day, the day after The Passover = the 15th

 

And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.    Numbers 33.3

 

Your mind is obviously blinded, the result of your  man made doctrines.

 

Jim

To clarify, I don't identify with mainstream Christianity, and in my mind the correct service to YHWH resembles (corrected and fulfilled) Judaism much moreso than Christianity, so I actually agree with you, Ben Avraham, on several points. I can see how you might take what I have written personally, please don't. I mean no offence to you or Jews in general.

This thread is about when Scriptures say Passover is: if Jim or I am wrong, why not prove it with Scriptures?  Seems to me that anytime the Rabbinic viewpoint is not proven by Scriptures accusations of anti-Semitism are forthcoming.  I am pro-Semite, just as any true Believer should be.

Even if we don't agree on every point of Scriptural interpretation I wish you and Orthodox Judaism nothing but shalom and blessings.


Ben Avraham said:

I am sorry if this is a more emotional statement than an educational statement.

This is what I get out of this thread.

 

xtianity (Jim and Yirmayahu) come across as much of xtianity, bigoted and anti-Jewish.

They are against anything Jewish and Rabbinical (no you cannot remove the two they are the same).

They do not care about anything in the Tanakh, they only want the "New" revelation that is in the Brit Chadashah, that goes against Judaism and anything Jewish with its Roman mindset.

 

This is why Jews do not want xtianity, these very reasons, this is why Jews question anything in the Brit Chadashah because of the bigotry of xtianity and their hatred of the Jews.  You can see it plainly in their every post.

 

I learned much from these posts, I questioned everything I ever learned and found out most of it was lies from xtianity.

 

After reading Rabbi Trimm's Gospel Commentary, I understand much of the truth in a more Jewish way and I also see how xtianity is false.  There are no "New" revelations in the Brit Chadashah, if they do not line up with Jewish Rabbinical traditions and ways they are Heretical or just plain wrong.  This is not two books it is one book and does not change when a Jewish Moshiach comes to earth, it only fulfills the Tanakh and its prophecies as JEWISH.

 

xtianity only created a "New" religion with its "New" interpretations and that is just what a few members here want to promote, and it is very clear they are blinded with anti-Jewish hatred, since if it came out of the mouth of a Rabbi it is from Sah-Tan, or at least that is how they come across.

 

All this "New" revelation is doing is driving Jews away, not towards these "New" teachings, and it is not because we are "blind" it is because we have removed the blinders that were making us blind (xtianity and "New" interpretations) and now see the truth of this false religion that is being stuffed down the mouths of Jews.  Yeshua is a Jewish Rabbinical Moshiach and that will never change, he is not a "New" religion with "New" revelation for the Goyim, and out of bigotry and jealous that xtianity tries to ignore that Yeshua did not come for the Goyim but he came for the Jews.  This religion is JUDAISM in its full glory, not xtianity.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Ben Avraham said:

I am sorry if this is a more emotional statement than an educational statement.

This is what I get out of this thread.

 

xtianity (Jim and Yirmayahu) come across as much of xtianity, bigoted and anti-Jewish.

They are against anything Jewish and Rabbinical (no you cannot remove the two they are the same).

They do not care about anything in the Tanakh, they only want the "New" revelation that is in the Brit Chadashah, that goes against Judaism and anything Jewish with its Roman mindset.

 

This is why Jews do not want xtianity, these very reasons, this is why Jews question anything in the Brit Chadashah because of the bigotry of xtianity and their hatred of the Jews.  You can see it plainly in their every post.

 

I learned much from these posts, I questioned everything I ever learned and found out most of it was lies from xtianity.

 

After reading Rabbi Trimm's Gospel Commentary, I understand much of the truth in a more Jewish way and I also see how xtianity is false.  There are no "New" revelations in the Brit Chadashah, if they do not line up with Jewish Rabbinical traditions and ways they are Heretical or just plain wrong.  This is not two books it is one book and does not change when a Jewish Moshiach comes to earth, it only fulfills the Tanakh and its prophecies as JEWISH.

 

xtianity only created a "New" religion with its "New" interpretations and that is just what a few members here want to promote, and it is very clear they are blinded with anti-Jewish hatred, since if it came out of the mouth of a Rabbi it is from Sah-Tan, or at least that is how they come across.

 

All this "New" revelation is doing is driving Jews away, not towards these "New" teachings, and it is not because we are "blind" it is because we have removed the blinders that were making us blind (xtianity and "New" interpretations) and now see the truth of this false religion that is being stuffed down the mouths of Jews.  Yeshua is a Jewish Rabbinical Moshiach and that will never change, he is not a "New" religion with "New" revelation for the Goyim, and out of bigotry and jealous that xtianity tries to ignore that Yeshua did not come for the Goyim but he came for the Jews.  This religion is JUDAISM in its full glory, not xtianity.

Hi Ben Avraham -

 

I am not antisemetic, not one little bit.

 

All four branches of my family trace back to Judah and it is out of my love for The LORD, Israel, and Judah that I proclaim the truth The LORD has given me.

 

Some people just don't like to hear the truth.

 

They accused Jeremiah of being a traitor, they cut Isaiah in half, the murdered Micah in The Temple, they put YHVH on a cross.

 

The LORD is no happier with the changes made by my Jewish brothers than He is with the changes made by the Sunday keepers because all these changes lead to the same place.

 

I am not going to accept the changes made by the Pope and I am not going to accept the changes made by the Rabbis either.

 

And no offense, but I percieve you are willing to accept their changes to God's Law out of misplaced loyalty and brainwashing.

 

Don't believe it??

 

Getting defensive (know thyself brother)

 

Are you celebrating the New Year tonight??

 

Or do you accept the Rabbis change of the New Year to what is IN TRUTH the first day of the seventh month??

 

 My New Years Eve is tonight, for that is what The LORD commands

 

To be continued - hit the 4000 limit

Ben Avraham said:

I am sorry if this is a more emotional statement than an educational statement.

This is what I get out of this thread.

 

xtianity (Jim and Yirmayahu) come across as much of xtianity, bigoted and anti-Jewish.

They are against anything Jewish and Rabbinical (no you cannot remove the two they are the same).

They do not care about anything in the Tanakh, they only want the "New" revelation that is in the Brit Chadashah, that goes against Judaism and anything Jewish with its Roman mindset.

 

This is why Jews do not want xtianity, these very reasons, this is why Jews question anything in the Brit Chadashah because of the bigotry of xtianity and their hatred of the Jews.  You can see it plainly in their every post.

 

I learned much from these posts, I questioned everything I ever learned and found out most of it was lies from xtianity.

 

After reading Rabbi Trimm's Gospel Commentary, I understand much of the truth in a more Jewish way and I also see how xtianity is false.  There are no "New" revelations in the Brit Chadashah, if they do not line up with Jewish Rabbinical traditions and ways they are Heretical or just plain wrong.  This is not two books it is one book and does not change when a Jewish Moshiach comes to earth, it only fulfills the Tanakh and its prophecies as JEWISH.

 

xtianity only created a "New" religion with its "New" interpretations and that is just what a few members here want to promote, and it is very clear they are blinded with anti-Jewish hatred, since if it came out of the mouth of a Rabbi it is from Sah-Tan, or at least that is how they come across.

 

All this "New" revelation is doing is driving Jews away, not towards these "New" teachings, and it is not because we are "blind" it is because we have removed the blinders that were making us blind (xtianity and "New" interpretations) and now see the truth of this false religion that is being stuffed down the mouths of Jews.  Yeshua is a Jewish Rabbinical Moshiach and that will never change, he is not a "New" religion with "New" revelation for the Goyim, and out of bigotry and jealous that xtianity tries to ignore that Yeshua did not come for the Goyim but he came for the Jews.  This religion is JUDAISM in its full glory, not xtianity.

continued -

 

Tonight is New Years Eve:

 

1.  And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
 2.  This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.     Exodus 12.1+2

 

Not the first day of the seventh month, as The Jews practise:

 

 23.  And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
 24.  Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
 25.  Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.         Leviticus 23.23-25

 

This man made change to God's Law has yeilded the spiritual blindness which Isaiah prophesied about.

 

It is the root of majority of The Jews not even observing The Passover any longer, and they have no idea what it is really about.

 

They don't know the first step in The LORD's plan of salvation because they don;t know what it the first commanded Holy Day of the year.

 

It is not antisemetic to proclaim the truth

 

Never has been

 

what it is, is unpopular

 

to be continued

Ben Avraham said:

I am sorry if this is a more emotional statement than an educational statement.

This is what I get out of this thread.

 

xtianity (Jim and Yirmayahu) come across as much of xtianity, bigoted and anti-Jewish.

They are against anything Jewish and Rabbinical (no you cannot remove the two they are the same).

They do not care about anything in the Tanakh, they only want the "New" revelation that is in the Brit Chadashah, that goes against Judaism and anything Jewish with its Roman mindset.

 

This is why Jews do not want xtianity, these very reasons, this is why Jews question anything in the Brit Chadashah because of the bigotry of xtianity and their hatred of the Jews.  You can see it plainly in their every post.

 

I learned much from these posts, I questioned everything I ever learned and found out most of it was lies from xtianity.

 

After reading Rabbi Trimm's Gospel Commentary, I understand much of the truth in a more Jewish way and I also see how xtianity is false.  There are no "New" revelations in the Brit Chadashah, if they do not line up with Jewish Rabbinical traditions and ways they are Heretical or just plain wrong.  This is not two books it is one book and does not change when a Jewish Moshiach comes to earth, it only fulfills the Tanakh and its prophecies as JEWISH.

 

xtianity only created a "New" religion with its "New" interpretations and that is just what a few members here want to promote, and it is very clear they are blinded with anti-Jewish hatred, since if it came out of the mouth of a Rabbi it is from Sah-Tan, or at least that is how they come across.

 

All this "New" revelation is doing is driving Jews away, not towards these "New" teachings, and it is not because we are "blind" it is because we have removed the blinders that were making us blind (xtianity and "New" interpretations) and now see the truth of this false religion that is being stuffed down the mouths of Jews.  Yeshua is a Jewish Rabbinical Moshiach and that will never change, he is not a "New" religion with "New" revelation for the Goyim, and out of bigotry and jealous that xtianity tries to ignore that Yeshua did not come for the Goyim but he came for the Jews.  This religion is JUDAISM in its full glory, not xtianity.

Hi Again Ben Avraham -

 

You are very mistaken to call the Sunday keepers Christians.

 

It takes more to be a Jew than saying "I'm a Jew" a bunch of times

 

And it takes more than the running of the mouth to be a Christian

 

I can say "I'm a cat. I'm a cat, I'm a cat" a million times and I still won't be a cat.

 

All Christians are Sabbath keepers, always have been.

 

We have God's Law written upon our heart and mind when we recieve The Holy Spirit:

 

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;        Hebrews 10.16

 

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.       Revelation 14.12

 

The people you are calling Christians the New Testament calls "The Mystery of Iniquity (meaning NO LAW)", "Mystery Babylon", + "The Synagogue of Satan".

 

They honor their master on the 359th day of the year:

 

http://lumberguy.net/359Satansnumber.html

 

Please examine that page, I bet you will happy you did, if you do.

 

Blessings - Jim
Ben Avraham said:

I am sorry if this is a more emotional statement than an educational statement.

This is what I get out of this thread.

 

xtianity (Jim and Yirmayahu) come across as much of xtianity, bigoted and anti-Jewish.

They are against anything Jewish and Rabbinical (no you cannot remove the two they are the same).

They do not care about anything in the Tanakh, they only want the "New" revelation that is in the Brit Chadashah, that goes against Judaism and anything Jewish with its Roman mindset.

 

This is why Jews do not want xtianity, these very reasons, this is why Jews question anything in the Brit Chadashah because of the bigotry of xtianity and their hatred of the Jews.  You can see it plainly in their every post.

 

I learned much from these posts, I questioned everything I ever learned and found out most of it was lies from xtianity.

 

After reading Rabbi Trimm's Gospel Commentary, I understand much of the truth in a more Jewish way and I also see how xtianity is false.  There are no "New" revelations in the Brit Chadashah, if they do not line up with Jewish Rabbinical traditions and ways they are Heretical or just plain wrong.  This is not two books it is one book and does not change when a Jewish Moshiach comes to earth, it only fulfills the Tanakh and its prophecies as JEWISH.

 

xtianity only created a "New" religion with its "New" interpretations and that is just what a few members here want to promote, and it is very clear they are blinded with anti-Jewish hatred, since if it came out of the mouth of a Rabbi it is from Sah-Tan, or at least that is how they come across.

 

All this "New" revelation is doing is driving Jews away, not towards these "New" teachings, and it is not because we are "blind" it is because we have removed the blinders that were making us blind (xtianity and "New" interpretations) and now see the truth of this false religion that is being stuffed down the mouths of Jews.  Yeshua is a Jewish Rabbinical Moshiach and that will never change, he is not a "New" religion with "New" revelation for the Goyim, and out of bigotry and jealous that xtianity tries to ignore that Yeshua did not come for the Goyim but he came for the Jews.  This religion is JUDAISM in its full glory, not xtianity.

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