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Questions about Zehcaryah 4

Zecharyah 4:1 And the heavenly Angel that talked with me came again, and woke me up, as a man that is awakened out of his sleep,

4:2 And said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I have looked and see:  a menorah all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and on its stand seven lamps, and seven spouts to the seven lamps, which are at the top of it.

Well that’s different:  there is a bowl on top of the menorah.  Since this configuration of the menorah is unusual, what is the significance of the bowl-- what or Who does it symbolize?   

Is the bowl echad with the menorah?

Is the bowl connected to the menorah, or is the bowl floating above the menorah? 

Is the menorah subordinate to the bowl? 

Is the description of the seven lamps and seven spouts referring to parts of the bowl or to parts of the menorah?  

4:3  And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side of it.

4:4 So I answered and spoke to the heavenly angel that talked with me, saying, “What are these,  my Master?”

4:5 Then the Heavenly Angel that talked with me answered and said to me, “Don’t you know what these are?”  And i said, “No, my Master.”

4:6 Then He answered and spoke to me saying, “This is the word of YHWH to Zerubbavel, saying “Not by might, not by power, but by My Ruach, says YHWH tzevaoth.”

Ok it appears that the "these" is referring to a plurality.  Yet when YHWH answers Zecharyah’s question He identifies something as being symbolic of the Ruach HaQodesh-- is he identifying the bowl, the menorah or the combination of the bowl and menorah as being symbolic of the Ruach HaQodesh?

4:7  Who are you O great mountain?  Before Zerubbavel you shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone of it with shouts of Favor, favor to it.”

4:8 Moreover the word of YHWH came to me saying, 

4:9 “The hands of Zerubbvel have laid the foundation of this House; his hand shall also finish it; and you shall know that YHWH tzevaoth has sent Me to you.

4:10  For who has despised the day of small beginnings?  For they shall have rejoicing and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbavel with Those Seven;  They are the Eyes of YHWH, which diligently search through the whole earth.

OK now a wooden reading of verse 10 might give the notion of YHWH being seven-eyed, but that would be inconsistent with other passages.  For instance

Gilyahna/Revelation 4:5  And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thundering and voices:  and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the Seven Ruachot (Spirits) of Elohim

Gilyahna/Revelation 5:6  And I looked, and in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Ruachot (Spirits) of YHWH sent forth into all the earth.

And further confirmation of how the word “eyes” is descriptive of a being who functions as a witness or proxy can be seen where Moses is pleading with Hobab.

Bemidbar 11:31  And he said, “Leave us not, I pray you;  for as much as you know how we are to camp in the desert, and you may be to us our eyes

So obviously Moses wasn’t asking Hobab to morph himself into a pair of spare eyeballs that Moses or the Yahsarlites could use; but rather, Moses was asking him to be a witness.

So it would seem that the Seven Eyes/horns/lamps are symbolic of the Seven Ruachot (Spirits) sent forth from YHWH.  So then if the 7 lamps and 7 eyes are symbolic of the Seven Ruachot (Spirits)  Then would the Bowl above the menorah be symbolic of the Ruach HaQodesh?  If so, then would this indicate a hierarchy where the Ruach HaQodesh is super-ordinate over the 7 Ruachot?

Zecharyah 4:11 Then I responded and said to Him,”What are these two olive trees, one upon the right side of the menorah and one upon the left side?”

Notice that the Heavenly Angel (presumably Yehoshua in pre-incarnate form) does not answer Zecharyah the first time Zecariyah asks, so Zecharyah asks the question again, but in a different way.

4:12  And I responded again, and said to Him, “What are these two olive branches that through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?”

So the first time that Zecharyah asks, he calls them “trees”, but the second time he asks, he clarifies that he’s talking about “branches’.  The question then is this: did Zecharyah zoom in on a detail of the trees, or did his vision become clearer to reveal that the trees were actually branches?  Are the branches coming out of the golden pipes and and emptying the pipes of oil?  Or are the  olive branches emptying themselves of oil into the golden pipes?

4:13  And He answered me and said; “Don’t you know what these are”  And I said, “No, My Master.”

4:14  Then said He,  “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Master of the whole earth."

Are the annointed ones the house of Yahudah and the house of Ephrayim?  Or are the two annointed ones the two witnesses mentioned in Gilyahna/Revelation 11:3?  Or are the two witnesses two heavenly beings?


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"Are the annointed ones the house of Yahudah and the house of Ephrayim? (Or) are the two annointed ones the two witnesses mentioned in Gilyahna/Revelation 11:3? "

You are correct! Well, combine the two, and you are correct.
Wow, what a coincidence, I was JUST reading about this Yaacov!

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=2-Witnes...

The 2 lampstands, the 2 olive trees, etc- these are symbols for the cultivated olive of Yahudah, and the wild olive of Efrayim!

They are indeed the 2 Witnesses of Revelation.
I believe you have just stumbled upon great truths, my brother.


Some quotes from the article I linked you to:

REVELATION 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. (NKJV)

We see that the two witnesses are symbolically called "two olive trees" and also "two lampstands." We'll examine each of these symbols in turn and see what the Scriptures have to say about them.

First, let's look at what the Bible says about the "two olive trees." Are these olive trees spoken of anywhere else in the Bible? Yes, they certainly are!

In Zechariah 4 we see the same symbols that are used in Revelation 11 — olive trees and a lampstand. The two olive trees are said to be "the anointed ones" (literally "sons of the oil") who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth" (Zec. 4:14). But maddeningly, the angel doesn't give Zechariah (or us) a direct answer regarding the identity of these two trees. We must look in the book of Jeremiah to find identification of the olive trees:

JEREMIAH 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree, lovely and of good fruit. With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken. 17 For the LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced doom against you for the evil of the House of Israel and of the House of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal." (NKJV)

Here in Jeremiah 11 we see that both houses of Israel are called a "green olive tree." They were planted and named by Yah the Father Himself. We can be certain from Scripture that both the House of Judah and the House of Israel are symbolically labeled as olive trees.
The menorah is both a lamp stand and a tree, the tree is grown in middle east. I believe the lampstand is built identical to the Menorah built by Aharon to place next to the Ark of the Covenant to be burn continually. The Two Witnesses witnessing to the Only witness.

Shalom
Can you provide some evidence (not necessarily proof, just evidence) for the Enoch and Elijah theory?
From the canonized books preferably, but I'll let 1. Enoch and Yashar pass if they say something about this.

I strongly disagree with your "archangel" doctrine, but there's no use asking for a quote regarding that one, as I know you'll resort to some non-canon thing.
There is only one Great Messenger, as archangel means, and that's Michael. In the Scriptures at least.

I have some theories on who Michael really is though...

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
the two olive trees are the two witnesses, enoch and elijah. the seven spirits of elohim are the seven archangels.
But what about the bowl?
The Book of Zechariyah is truly one of my favorite Scriptures, specifically his visions in ch.4-6.
Visions can often be hard to interpret, not just because of the veiled truths and symbolism, but because of the translation challenges (faulty translations of Yehezqiel's description of the Cherubim and the Ophanim has lead to some ridiculous interpretations).

Visualizing the object correctly might actually be critical.
At first I thought the bowl was hovering in the air over the Menorah, but the Hebr. uses "Al Resh" for "on top", lit. "upon (the) head", implying it's a part of the contruct.
If this is the case, we could be led to believe the candles are sticking out of the bowl itself.
Agreements/disagreements on this?

I think we need to establish the appearance of the object first.

But lets assume I'm correct and the candles are actually sticking out of an elongated, almost oval bowl, which in turn stands on top of a menorah...
the candles represent X, and the bowl is Z - something (X) is inside, or sprouting out of Z -
let's say X is the House of Israel in the diaspora (Z).

Could this be an example of a correct interpretation methodology?

For reference:
http://biblos.com/zechariah/4-2.htm

Incidentally, in support of viewing the bowl as "babylon" / the diaspora - the Hebr. word for bowl used is Gulah, which I find to be etymologically and/or spiritually related to Galut / "Galus" (diaspora) and Galal (roll away, carry away), both words related to the issue of the Nortern Tribes in the dispersion.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Galus
http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/1543.htm
http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/1556.htm


Anaiah:
Well I think being "taken away to Shamayim" entails viewing Heaven, and like Mosheh, dying in a secret place (on earth).
Have you not earlier suggested Moses as one of the Witnesses?
Maybe I'm mixing you up with someone else, but I've head that theory too, and he did not fly to Heaven to live for thousands of years.
Then again if you believe people are conscious after death, being "taken to Heaven alive" does not seem to be a necessity.

I think Gabriel is a angel in the typical sense (a heavenly spirit-being), and in his function as a messenger - I do not believe in "archangels" as a different class of beings, though there certainly are higher-ranking angelic beings, which are called "Princes" in the Scriptures.
Daniel and Paul tells us some of these are evil, and control different portions of the earth.

I think 1. Enoch is half-way trustworthy, though it has some aforementioned problems (corruptions), like the "sirens".
I take this book with a pinch of salt, allowing it to provide new information and supplements, but only very carefully.

To not drift away from the rather exciting issue of the 2 witnesses, which I think Elohim is especially interested in revealing to us in these times, I'll conclude that the phrase "archangels" in Enoch are probably translated so because of the classic modern interpretation of multiple archangels, and perhaps instead refers to some angelic Princes, which "Michael" and Gabriel surely are among.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
you don't think gabriel is an archangel? 1 Enoch teaches the seven archangels, i thought you consider Enoch Scripture? And, well, the Revelation of Peter teaches Enoch and Elijah. As to traditional canon references, basically, there is no other sound explanation as to why Enoch and Elijah were taken away and not yet died.
I'm with Christian on this one; I believe the two witnesses are Judah and Joseph (the two houses of Israel).
The Apocalypse of Peter teaches Enoch and Elijah? That must be in the Ethiopic version, and not the Akhmim Greek fragment... correct?

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
you don't think gabriel is an archangel? 1 Enoch teaches the seven archangels, i thought you consider Enoch Scripture? And, well, the Revelation of Peter teaches Enoch and Elijah. As to traditional canon references, basically, there is no other sound explanation as to why Enoch and Elijah were taken away and not yet died.
I tend to only trust the Akhmim fragment. From my experience, texts that give names to the two witnesses (Gospel of Nicodemus, for example) appear to be much later "Christian" forgeries.

You'll get no argument from me that Enoch did not see death.

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
yes, the Ethiopian version.
It doesnt say that Joseph, step-daddy of Messiah died either.. perhaps he's still alive..
I thought you rejected the Rabbinical argument from silence?
Regarding Chanok, maybe his age/time of death was not known, or a tradition required omitting his age for some reason, or perhaps there is some other explanation.
Either way, we have no proof or trustworthy evidence, be it from Sirach, the Bhagavad Gita, the Voluspå or Catholic Catechism regarding the interpretation of the 2 witnesses as 2 actual guys.

The 2 witnesses are the 2 Houses.

To elaborate on the candles sticking out of the bowl, on top of the Menorah, this construct probably refers to the time when both Houses are/were in Diaspora, a time which may have ended in 1947/48.
While you resort to non-canonical scripture to support what I believe is a fantasy version of the 2 witnesses, totally unsupported by Scripture, which does not include Sirach by the way.

To clarify the reason for this..
Sirach may even be theologically accurate, but still be uninspired, a forgery, or edited/revised significantly.
I think it could even contain prophecy and still not be meant for the canon.
I mean, if something you posted as a message on this site, say a prediction of the future, actually came true and was proven to be inspired - would you somehow canonize those messages?
Or what if you prophecied in an MSN conversation?
Would you canonize the chat log? :)

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
and that's a horrible interpretation. Of course Enoch's age would be known. how? the same way everyone's elses ages were known. And it doesn't omit his age. It says when he was 365, he was taken. It was an abrupt halt to his life on earth, but his life in one of the heavens continues. you have to resort to traditions that are nowhere supported historically.

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