Nazarene Space

Reading Torah weekly a command, tradition, or just a good thing?

4:16 YeweShua came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. He entered, as was his custom, into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 The book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the glad tidings of Torah to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed, 19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of EWEY 20 He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began to tell them, “Today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing. Luka 4:16-21

 

Was the action of YeweShua; a command, tradition, or ust a good thing we should follow?

 

Was this practice instituted by EWEY, Moshe or Ezra?

 

Should we be imitators of YeweShua and do as He did, Shabbat Shalom? 

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 I do believe Moshe completed the Torah as written He completed it including the aspects of his death;  It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished!

 

The fact remains it was originated by Moshe under the diret guidance or EWEY, So now you are saying the Rabbi who wrote this is lying, for what purpose? As far as YeweShua participating in weekly forced custom???? He rebuked the one violating Torah, this one is in complete harmony of Torah???

 

The tradition of reading the Torah out loud dates back to the time of Moses, who would read the Torah publicly on Shabbat, festivals, and Rosh Chodesh. According to the Talmud, it was Ezra the Scribe who established the practice, which continues today, of reading the Torah also on Monday and Thursday mornings and Shabbat afternoons. These days were picked because Monday and Thursday were traditionally days that the Jews would go to the nearest towns to shop and trade. Also, this way the people would never go for more than three days without getting spiritual sustenance from the Torah. There were breaks in the practice, but since the Maccabean period in the 2nd century BCE, public Torah reading has been maintained continuously. It was also in the Maccabean period that the Jews started reading from the Torah consecutively, reading on Shabbat afternoon, Monday, and Thursday from the point at which they left off the previous Shabbat morning.

In the early times, there were two traditions as to how the reading on Shabbat mornings should proceed. In Israel, the Torah was divided into 155 portions and took three years to read. Today, Reform and some Conservative congregations follow this triennial cycle. In Babylonia, the Torah was split in 54 sections and took one year to read (some portions were read together in non-leap years). The size of the sections vary, containing anywhere between 30 and more than 150 verses. This latter custom became accepted for Orthodox and most Conservative Jews. The only break from the weekly cycle is when Shabbat is a holiday with a special Torah portion. The Torah is read on Shabbat and festivals between the shacharit (morning) and mussaf (additional) services and on weekdays at the end of shacharit.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/torah_reading.html

 

  Shalom

J. Jury said:

Sounds like Rabbinic tradition, from a Rabbinic website. Not a bad tradition- in fact, a good one- that is just that: a good tradition.

sevynn leverette said:

Every morning we recite blessings before learning Torah. When a man is called up to the Torah he repeats the blessing of "asher bachar banu" and afterwards says "asher nasan lanu". If he has already recited blessings on the Torah why does he need to say these two other ones?

Moshe Rabbeunu instituted a special mitzva to read publicly from the Torah every Shabbos. Ezra added on Monday, Thursday, and Shabbos afternoon to insure that no Jew should pass three days without Torah learning. Since the public Torah reading is a specially instituted decree, we recite independent blessings on it (Responsa of Rashba; Rosh Berachos 1,13).

Every person who reads from the Torah makes a blessing afterwards as well. In truth, we are instructed to learn Torah day and night, and it is really not possible to recite an after blessing on Torah learning. This blessing merely marks the conclusion of one's aliya to the Torah (Beis Yosef 47).

http://www.torah.org/learning/tefilah/torahreadings.html

 

 Shabbat Shalom

 

You very conveniently ignored this fact: Adam, Enoch, Noah could not ever live up to this rule.

Christian said:
I tend to be skeptical towards commandments which Adam, Enoch and Noah could not even conceivably fulfill...
In fact, Moses himself died before the entire Torah was finished, so not even he could have fulfilled such a commandment.

 This is further evidence you do not understand Torah it is not too hard and very near your heart, and Noach was blameless. The Torah at its core is a Covenant of repentence, as well as Instruction, Teaching, and Directives to the sons and daughters who submit too it.

  

   Shalom

There is no evidence to substantiate this claim. Sorry, but there just isn't. There is no proof that the Sabbath readings originated with Moses. Can you provide actual evidence from the Torah that clearly spells this out, and not just subjective opinion?

sevynn leverette said:

The fact remains it was originated by Moshe under the diret guidance or EWEY, So now you are saying the Rabbi who wrote this is lying, for what purpose?

 Jesse this one has escaped your pride to admit the evidence so far, as 2nd Thessalonians says even the elect will blieve the lies.

 Example you celebrate most customs and traditions that are not mentioned in Torah accept the Rabbinic thought process including the Rabbinic moon calendar, this is just a personal feeling for you, nothing more! There is no proof the Rabbinic calendar was in effect when Moshe instituted the new year in Exodus 12:2, but you support t as true and a Torah Instruction, There are thousands sources supporting Moshe originating Shabbat readings, only you are too blind to accept it. We have to accept the history and the documents available that teach us the voice and thoughts of EWEY. You can keep posting i do not believe does not change the facts by many solid sources. YeweShua and Ezra are two sources that out weigh any comment you can make here!

 

  Shalom

So when faced with a question you absolutely cannot answer, you resort to calling me prideful, and telling Christian he lacks understanding? That's not very conducive to a proper discussion.

 

Can you provide actual evidence from the Torah that clearly spells this out, and not just subjective opinion?

 

I have no issues with tradition- I've said that over and over again. My sole point in this discussion is that nowhere in Torah are we commanded to do Torah readings on Sabbath. It just isn't there. I don't even have an issue with Torah readings as a good tradition, I just wish you would realize that Torah does not teach this. It's fine as a tradition- it's a good tradition- but it's not a Torah commandment.

 

As we've discussed before, the mere mention in the Scriptures that someone DID something does not necessarily make that action right or wrong, or mean that we should do it as well. For example: Deborah was elected as a judge, but you (as well as I) disagree with electing women to positions of authority. Etc.

 

I do think it's funny that you have no issue quoting Talmud as an authoritative source when it benefits you, but shunning it when its not in your favor. It makes it seem as if your motive is to prove yourself right, no matter what the cost. I, personally, have no problem with Talmud as a matter of opinion, just not a matter of solid fact.

 

The bottom line is that Torah does not teach to do Torah readings on the Sabbath. I'm not trying to be prideful here, just trying to be realistic about this.

 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one?

 

sevynn leverette said:

 Jesse this one has escaped your pride to admit the evidence so far, as 2nd Thessalonians says even the elect will blieve the lies.

 Example you celebrate most customs and traditions that are not mentioned in Torah accept the Rabbinic thought process including the Rabbinic moon calendar, this is just a personal feeling for you, nothing more! There is no proof the Rabbinic calendar was in effect when Moshe instituted the new year in Exodus 12:2, but you support t as true and a Torah Instruction, There are thousands sources supporting Moshe originating Shabbat readings, only you are too blind to accept it. We have to accept the history and the documents available that teach us the voice and thoughts of EWEY. You can keep posting i do not believe does not change the facts by many solid sources. YeweShua and Ezra are two sources that out weigh any comment you can make here!

 

  Shalom

Great emotionalistic response, bad logical-scriptural-technical response.
You're creating new laws which Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Adam, Enoch and Noah could not have kept, (rendering them sinners?) and presumably you're judging them as sinners for it as well.
How about an actual answer that does not beat around the bush?

Instead of accusing me of not understanding, how about actually making an attempt at explaining?
How can you invent these laws which are NOT spell'd out plainly (your exegetical method could allow for basically anything) and which could not possibly have been kept by the aforementioned antediluvians and patriarchs.

Abel sacrificed properly, Noah separated between clean and unclean animals, all this is proven precedence of law-keeping before Sinai; however, the "law of weekly Torah parsha reading" is NOT in harmony with this. Adam could never have fulfilled this law, even if he never ate from the tree. Abraham could never have fulfilled this law, if he lived twice his age.

sevynn leverette said:

 This is further evidence you do not understand Torah it is not too hard and very near your heart, and Noach was blameless. The Torah at its core is a Covenant of repentence, as well as Instruction, Teaching, and Directives to the sons and daughters who submit too it.

 

   Shalom

So Moses himself also wrote this sentence: "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" ?
Technically, he would still be writing it, while writing "finished writing", kind of contradictory.
He would be claiming the Torah to be a finished writing, while continuing to write the following chapters ?

Either the following chapters are Torah or not; if they are Torah, then he could NOT claim it to be a finished writing.
If the last chapters of Deuteronomy are NOT Torah in your opinion, I think you've got some exegetical problems.

Most rabbis and scholars I know of identify Joshua as the secondary author of the pentateuch.
Some even identify Adam, Enoch, Noah and Abraham as potential contributors, interestingly.


sevynn leverette said:

 I do believe Moshe completed the Torah as written He completed it including the aspects of his death;  "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" !

 

Yes Joshua may have finalized it, but Moses was a prophet, so yes He could have recorded his death before it occurred. 

Christian said:
So Moses himself also wrote this sentence: "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" ?

Most rabbis and scholars I know of identify Joshua as the secondary author of the pentateuch.
Some even identify Adam, Enoch, Noah and Abraham as potential contributors, interestingly.


sevynn leverette said:

 I do believe Moshe completed the Torah as written He completed it including the aspects of his death;  "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" !

 

But then he would be falsely claiming it to be a "finished writing", only to continue writing.
Either the last chapters of Deuteronomy are a part of the Torah (meaning it's not finished at the point he supposedly is claiming it to be finished), or you must claim the last chapters of Deuteronomy are not Torah.

Either way, if you look at it contextually, Moses is saying "THIS instruction", not "this Pentateuch of 5 books" - he is referring to the Sinai sermons and codifications, he's using the term "Torah" not as a name, but as a general term.
The Bible very often uses "Torah" to simply mean instruction, teaching, doctrine, even evil doctrines and teachings!
It's NOT a technical term for "pentateuch" in every single instance....

As for Joshua finalizing it, well, if you're willing to admit this, then there's no need to resort to hypothesizing answers for Moses's (semantic) mistake in claiming something to be finished only to continue writing...



James Trimm said:

Yes Joshua may have finalized it, but Moses was a prophet, so yes He could have recorded his death before it occurred. 

Christian said:
So Moses himself also wrote this sentence: "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" ?

Most rabbis and scholars I know of identify Joshua as the secondary author of the pentateuch.
Some even identify Adam, Enoch, Noah and Abraham as potential contributors, interestingly.


sevynn leverette said:

 I do believe Moshe completed the Torah as written He completed it including the aspects of his death;  "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" !

 

My frustration lies here:

 

If someone says, "I believe this because the sages taught it." then that would have some value, because, at the very least, it rests upon honest reasoning.

 

But if someone says, "I believe this because the Torah teaches it." then we have a problem, because at no given point does the Torah actually teach it, hence there is a complete void of honest reasoning.

 

What we have here is an obvious case of "The Emperor's New Clothes". What I mean by that is this: we all know and realize that this theory lacks any support from the Torah, yet when faced with having to provide evidence from the Torah, you called me prideful and Christian ignorant. You have said, "This is provable from Torah!" without going through any means of sound exegesis, or providing any factual evidence from Torah to support these claims. Instead, you have shown what the sages taught, what different historical references suggest, and said, "See? There's the Torah evidence!" when there just simply is none. Just like the emperor was parading around in the buff, so is this theory. Everyone knows it, because the truth is right there, staring us in the face- but the emperor refused to admit it.

 

In other words, just admit, "I do this because the sages taught it." and stop trying to make Torah say something it obviously does not say.


Christian said:

But then he would be falsely claiming it to be a "finished writing", only to continue writing.
Either the last chapters of Deuteronomy are a part of the Torah (meaning it's not finished at the point he supposedly is claiming it to be finished), or you must claim the last chapters of Deuteronomy are not Torah.

Either way, if you look at it contextually, Moses is saying "THIS instruction", not "this Pentateuch of 5 books" - he is referring to the Sinai sermons and codifications, he's using the term "Torah" not as a name, but as a general term.
The Bible very often uses "Torah" to simply mean instruction, teaching, doctrine, even evil doctrines and teachings!
It's NOT a technical term for "pentateuch" in every single instance....

As for Joshua finalizing it, well, if you're willing to admit this, then there's no need to resort to hypothesizing answers for Moses's (semantic) mistake in claiming something to be finished only to continue writing...



James Trimm said:

Yes Joshua may have finalized it, but Moses was a prophet, so yes He could have recorded his death before it occurred. 

Christian said:
So Moses himself also wrote this sentence: "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" ?

Most rabbis and scholars I know of identify Joshua as the secondary author of the pentateuch.
Some even identify Adam, Enoch, Noah and Abraham as potential contributors, interestingly.


sevynn leverette said:

 I do believe Moshe completed the Torah as written He completed it including the aspects of his death;  "It happened, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this Torah in a book, until they were finished" !

 

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