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Baptism of the Holy Spirit a Second Grace?

Baptism of the Ruach HaKodesh, do all believers receive it at Salvation? or is it a "second grace" subsequent to salvation?

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This immersion was distinct from water immersion (Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Acts 11:16; 19:2-4). The Scriptures tell us that we were all immersed (baptized) into the one Body of Messiah, by one Spirit (1Cor. 12:13). This (not water baptism) is the immersion which saves us (1Pt. 3:21) and is received by faith (Gal. 3:2,5; 1Pt. 3:20-21 with Heb. 11:7). All believers, therefore, have been immersed into Messiah (Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:27), we all have "the Spirit of Messiah", which is the Spirit which raised Messiah(Rom. 8:9-11) in our hearts (Gal. 4:6; Eph. 3:17). This is the "Spirit of G-d" (1Jn. 4:12-13), or the "Holy Spirit" (1Cor. 6:19; 1Thes.4:8). Thus we were all saved by receiving the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" by faith. (see also Jn. 7:37-39; 14:7; Acts 10:44; 11:15-17; 15:8-9). Despite the fact that the Scriptures are quite clear on the subject, many Charismatics teach that Holy Spirit baptism is a sort of "second grace" subsequent and independent of salvation. In an attempt to defend this position Charismatics will often point to certain exceptional events in Acts (Acts 5:32; 8:14-19; 9:17; 19:2) to "prove" their second grace doctrine. In the following we shall deal with each of these:

Acts 5:32 - "...those who obey him..." This verse does not say that they received the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they obeyed, only that they both OBEYED AND RECEIEVED.
Acts 8:14-19 - Here we do find real subsequence. This was an exceptional case in which the traditional rivals of the Jews (see Jn. 4:9) known as Samaritans were becoming part of the Body for the first time. The Samaritans rejected the Jewish authority (Jn. 4:21) despite the fact that the Jewish people were those to whom G-d had entrusted his oracles (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:4; Jn.4:22). If the Samaritans were to accept Jewish emissaries as their leaders, then they would have to see with their own eyes that these Jews were those entrusted with G-d's oracles. They had to have Jews actually lay hands on them and GIVE them the Holy Spirit proving themselves to be G-d's chosen instrument. This was definitely a unique event, and not the norm.
Acts 9:17 - The text does not tell us that Shaul was saved prior to this time.
Acts 19:2-7 - Here Shaul encounters a group of Jews who were disciples (students) of Yochanan (Acts 19:3-4) but not of Y'shua (Acts 19:5). They had believed something (Acts 19:2) and received the baptism of Yochanan (water baptism) but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2, 5). The truth is that all believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1:3) and all believers already have the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9).

Hi; long time, no see. ;)  

I'm sorry, but I have experienced the baptism in the Holy Ghost, 34 years ago now, and it is real. In my experience, I had only been saved 3 months and I encountered something I had never seen before in this church in a converted barn, about 45 miles from where I live: it was the power of God. I was afraid, asked Him in my heart, to not let this man touch me when I was in the prayer line. Not only did he not touch me, he backed up about 6 feet from me when it was my turn. He got a word of wisdom for me that the Lord wanted to give me more power if I'd trust Him for it. I finally sobbed out that I would, in my heart asking Him to only allow His Spirit to touch me. What I saw next was an open eyed vision. The roof of the church was not above me and I saw what looked like a fiery comet coming down through the heavens towards me. When it hit my forehead, down I went. I was on the floor about an hour, the whole time hearing tongues being spoken loudly. I finally realized it was being spoken by my spirit, within me. It was 4 months before I realized that what I had seen was the "tongues" of fire (a comet IS like a "tongue" or flame of fire) that fell on them on the day of Pentecost. After that, my prayers and praise would turn into tongues, for it is a language of praise, first and foremost, as they heard on that day how the Spirit spoke of the wonderful works of God among men. Being baptized in water is a type of being baptized into His death/the grave; being baptized in the Holy Ghost is a type of being baptized into His ressurection life and power. The gifts of the Spirit, His spiritual works, are empowered by this baptism, for that reason. Blessings to you....

No one is debating whether or not it is real, the question here is do the Scriptures teach that it is subsequent to salvation, or do the Scriptures teach that the washing and renewing of the Ruach HaKodesh is part of the salvation process.



Rebecca Cardinal said:

Hi; long time, no see. ;)  

I'm sorry, but I have experienced the baptism in the Holy Ghost, 34 years ago now, and it is real. In my experience, I had only been saved 3 months and I encountered something I had never seen before in this church in a converted barn, about 45 miles from where I live: it was the power of God. I was afraid, asked Him in my heart, to not let this man touch me when I was in the prayer line. Not only did he not touch me, he backed up about 6 feet from me when it was my turn. He got a word of wisdom for me that the Lord wanted to give me more power if I'd trust Him for it. I finally sobbed out that I would, in my heart asking Him to only allow His Spirit to touch me. What I saw next was an open eyed vision. The roof of the church was not above me and I saw what looked like a fiery comet coming down through the heavens towards me. When it hit my forehead, down I went. I was on the floor about an hour, the whole time hearing tongues being spoken loudly. I finally realized it was being spoken by my spirit, within me. It was 4 months before I realized that what I had seen was the "tongues" of fire (a comet IS like a "tongue" or flame of fire) that fell on them on the day of Pentecost. After that, my prayers and praise would turn into tongues, for it is a language of praise, first and foremost, as they heard on that day how the Spirit spoke of the wonderful works of God among men. Being baptized in water is a type of being baptized into His death/the grave; being baptized in the Holy Ghost is a type of being baptized into His ressurection life and power. The gifts of the Spirit, His spiritual works, are empowered by this baptism, for that reason. Blessings to you....

I guess I misunderstood, forgive me. It is separate from initial salvation experience, if the timing is what is in question. One is an inward anointing (receiving Him as savior), one is an outward anointing. They fulfill the testimony of the Ark of the Covenant which was covered in gold, both within and without. Blessings....

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