Nazarene Space

There is a ritual in Judaism of passing authority to teach via laying on of hands, called "smikah". When a Rabbi is ordained he receives SMIKAH via laying on of hands. The Rabbis claim a line of SMIKAH going back to Moses, "Apostolic" Christian groups often trace a similar line of "Apostolic Authority" going back to the Apostles... This is an interesting topic and I will post a starter post in the discussions section on this.

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It appears that you agree that these organizations are spiritually youthful or not yet matured as your statement implies "I see this as even more reason for the beit din." A local beit din is a great idea, and I agree it would help further each communities spiritual development. But creating an international Sanhedrin with full halachic authority and declaring yourself the one true form of Judaism, this seems very pre-mature, presumptious, and very Ephraimite-esque.

There is an old midrash in relation to Ephraim. It states that while in egypt the tribe of Ephraim felt the redemption was drawing near and they left egypt (I believe it was) 40 years too early. Many from the tribe died and they were left to rot in the desert. According to the midrash this is where we get the valley of the dry bones.

In Ephraim's excitement for redemption, they decided to execute their own plan ahead of schedule and without sanctioning from a prophet. They paid a very heavy price for their haste...or so goes the midrash. Jeraboam also in his fear of having to submit to Judah's authority (or atleast colaborate with their authority) made a hasty decision to create his own organization of priests without sanctioning by a prophet. Again Northern kingdom paid a high price. Perhaps instead of getting ahead of ourselves lets raise two to three generations of Torah observant children, and see how that goes.

Dont get me wrong I dont think creating organizations and leadership is bad at all. I just dont think it is a good idea to slap authoritative names on them (as if they were sanctioned by a prophet) or to decare them the one true path. We saw a whole lot of that in christianity and why emulate that?
Before I begin to address your misguided education I must ask this of you…

(Quote) ”The Sanhedrin reestablished by rabbis in aretz on October 2004”

Might you revel this mystery fruitless organization to all of us so that we can better understand whom you feel is the ultimate authority at this time on the earth? (Not that I will agree with you, rest assured. Why would you ever think a Nazarene / Essene /Pharisee hybrid would; knowing they have not for the last 2000 years? )

(Quote) “I have no appetite to persuade anyone here; and I don't like debates: I am tired of it: my university life as well as my post graduate have always been debates. If you don't agree with me that's acceptable to me for I never expect everyone to think according to the conclusions presented”.

As well you shouldn’t since YOUR CONCLUSIONS are frequently misguided. Be advised however that these words strongly contradict your actual intentions on this site. .

(Quote) I don't subscribe to that changing "key" theory; G-d doesn't easily change the mind.

Your grammar here comes into question. If you truly meant “the”; then your sentence lacks theological direction while at the same time rings of truth concerning yourself. If you meant “His” I would agree with the theology.

(Quote) CAN ANYONE HERE DEMONSTRATE THAT HIS CURRENTLY ASSUMED TEACHING AUTHORITY WAS RECEIVED FROM LINEAGE OF KEFA AS WARRANTED THROUGH AN UNINTERRUPTED LINE OF TRADITION AND SUCCESSION?

No, and neither can you! A “lineage” of “teaching authority” is unprovable even within mainline Judaism. I realize your bias cannot understand this.

(Quote] The term hypocrite here is taken in universal genus, thus it applies to ALL hypocrites, including those people who arrogate for themselves "tithes" but are aware that they are not themselves levites nor kohanim to deserve it under the Law.

Again your bias is glaring. Do yourself, and possibly your Yeshiva, a favor doing a more thorough exegeses on the tithe utilizing all scripture. You do realize this would require the harmony found within the Ketuvim Natzarim?

(Quote) Shaul's claim for being a pharisee in the quoted text Acts 23:6 does not flow "out of confidence" but out of anxiety in defense as he was facing an accusation before the Council;

Ya right, just as it was here also? (Don’t bother answering; you’ll be wasting your time.)

Act 26:5 since they have known me from the first, if they wish to witness, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our observance

And here…

Phi 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the race of Yisra’ĕl, of the tribe of Binyamin, a Heḇrew of Heḇrews, according to Torah a Pharisee,


(Quote) 2) Let us not lose sight of the fact that even Yeshua did not take away but already confirmed this authority in them saying "The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moshe's seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe that you observe and do..."

Let us also not loose site, as Rabbi Trimm has tried to tell you, despite your continued ignoring, the word “they” is likely wrong and tainted in this instance.


(Quote) ==Come ask this way: But Acts 15:20 the council defined halachic rulings on idolatry, nebelah and blood, does it mean corporate exercise of Keys of the Kingdom replaced the Moshe commission of Sanhedrin?

Yes. Mainline Judaism is not the true representation of Judah. They are in Torah violation.

(Quote) --Adoption of these halachic points set the minimal requirements for the goy believers alone, proof to it is their exclusion from being circumcised.

….and eternal non-observance of Pesach according to your erroneous thinking.

(Quote) After all, if someone comes and is able to demonstrate sound proofs that "the Kefa keys were REPLACEMENT to the Moshe commission," I swear, I AM READY TO STAND CORRECTED and submit my opinion to it: humility is easier to give than wasting my precious time. Only that be sure that the argument is sound.

Your own words here contradict your misguided assertions above. How could you expect any of us to take your every word seriously?

(Quote) 6. I agree that Kefa and Apostles received teaching authority concerning their mission to preach the Gospel to all nations; (but not to teach torah halacha to all nations since nowhere did Yeshua give such commission.)

Mat 28:19 “Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Amĕn.

What part of the word “ALL” do you not seem to understand? You do realize there is only ONE Eloah?

(Quote); however, to teach torah halacha WITH AUTHORITY PER SE, you must receive a smicha from one (just one at least) a validly smicha'ed (ordained) rabbi from the line of Moshe.

Your organizations claim to have this supposed unbroken line of authority is laughable.


(Quote0 But again, where did you get hence your "messianic baptism"? and from whence did those who baptised you draw their authority? AS WE HAVE LEARNED: Moshiach said "as the Father has sent Me, so I send you" and how dare they to baptize you if they cannot authenticate with indubitable line of tradition showing that they were officially sent? (cf. Romans 10:15)

Let’s back up one verse, shall we…

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without one proclaiming?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they proclaim if they are not sent? As it has been written, “How pleasant are the feet of those who bring the Good News of peace, who bring the Good News of the good!”

Again, how can mainline Judaism, which openly denies even the true Messiah, be “sent” since they to this day refuse to even “believe”? The organization you are attempting to promote is apostate.

(Quote) I wouldn't have rebuked you here openly had you reviewed your composition first and realize that any old man's eyes had a greater chance to fall into the ditch of your shitholes rather than err from grammar.

(Reply) Let me guess, …your “shitholes” are cleaner? Again, your arrogance is nauseating

(Quote) and it was the council of apostles themselves who did not even give commandment to keep Torah, not even the least commandment of brit milah (cf. Acts 15:24) it was the apostles who commanded the church NOT TO OBSERVE SUCH THINGS! (cf. Acts 21:25) So, in fairness to Ignatius, common sense will only tell us to surmise that being bishop in Antioch HE WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS FROM COUNCIL IN JERUSALEM NOT TO OBSERVE SUCH THINGS. The dilemma is this: either Ignatius was following orders from Jerushalyim Council or that the Council apostasized: either fork pierces you.

(Reply) The “council of apostles” you speak of did not have authority to change Torah, and neither do you. I’ll post these again for the readers and yourself since you ignored them in the last thread I rebuked you in…

Act 15:14 “Shimʽon has declared how Elohim first visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His Name.

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

Appears to me that if they are not keeping Sabbath, Acts 15 doesn’t even apply to the unfortunate misguided gentiles you attempt to assure remain in bondage.

Mat 28:19 “Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Amĕin.

Replace the word “nations” with “goyim” here.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once gentiles in the flesh, who are called ‘the uncircumcision’ by what is called ‘the circumcision’ made in the flesh by hands

I suppose you would have them ignore the fact the book of Eph is written to FORMER GENTILES?

1Co 12:2 You know that you were gentiles, led away to the dumb idols, even as you might be led

Toss out Corinthians also?

1Pe 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the desire of the gentiles, having walked in indecencies, lusts, drunkenness, orgies, wild parties, and abominable idolatries,


1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the assemblies of Elohim which are in Yehuḏah in Messiah יהושע, because you also suffered the same treatment from your own countrymen as they also from the Yehuḏim,
1Th 2:15 who killed both the Master יהושע and their own prophets, and have persecuted us, and who displease Elohim and are hostile to all men,
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the gentiles that they might be saved, so as to fill up their sins always. But the wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

1Th 4:5 not in passion of lust, like the gentiles who do not know Elohim,

Jer 30:11 ‘For I am with you,’ declares יהוה, ‘to save you. Though I make a complete end of all gentiles where I have scattered you, yet I do not make a complete end of you. But I shall reprove you in judgment, and by no means leave you unpunished.’


Jer 10:2 Thus said יהוה, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by them.


Conversion is not optional as you say. I can post more, but I would hope by now you have a better understanding of what is expected of any gentile. Your teaching amounts to putting you in the category of false prophets with the rest of them. You take away from Torah. Fortunately you will not be stoned, or “forked” this time.


(Quote) We are here talking about the essence of powers of apostolic Smicha. I don't touch the general rights of gentiles to freely learn torah, or convert, or that of any Rabbi to freely teach torah: this is not the question we are concerned here. Of course the more gentiles are on to Torah or get converted I would be more than glad like you. But the point we are trying to discuss here is WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF THE PETRINE SMICHA AS CONTRA DISTINGUISHED TO RABBINIC SIMICHA. Please consider that the thread title was fixed by Mr. Trimm and I have to remain within the bounds of this title in my discussions. I don't offer general concepts here nor attempt to modify existing Jew-Gentile paradigm.

(Reply) The discussion topics are twofold:

1) Whom has the “keys”?

2)What to do about the gentiles?

Both have been addressed to you from the Nazarene perspective. Ignore it if you choose. One body believes, the other does not.


You said: "You think a bit to highly of yourself"
(Quote) That is an unfounded accusation of yours, maybe because you running out of resources to disprove my conclusion and you are unwilling to accept them. No one is high or low here, all men are equal in the sphere of Reason. I don't think highly of myself, what for? Nothing in that way brother. The genus of my disputation brings to you a new way of studying the scriptures: that understanding one simple passage is better than memorizing a hundred oracles that require a true prophet to interpret, otherwise the unwitting will only sound like a drunken parrot. I am not thinking high of my self. It's only that you are looking from below: and you have no other way to behold a tiny worm like me if the worm is clinging on a twig at the top of the tree, you have to look up to that worm no matter how high you regarded your self before.

(Reply) I would think by now you have a better idea of my perspective of your opinions on this forum. Obviously I was not “out of resources” only short of time. The reason for my opinion of your “haughtiness” in my viewpoint is due to your lack of respect and total disregard of what Rabbi Trimm has shown you, and what I have shown you in another thread, and since you show total disregard for those of us in the diaspora.

You’ve stated your opinions; we have stated ours. The genus of your heresy has not brought this student of scripture any thing “new”, but instead the same old antinomian rhetoric I can listen to daily should I choose to. Lew White has stated it best: Masquerading Messengers of Lawlessness! You do think highly of yourself. So highly as if to presume you speak for Eloah Himself. Your obvious contradictions glare to those of us that can see past your twisting of the writings to suit your false “authoritive” wielding assembly.

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