Nazarene Space

So the Polygamists have a Nickname for Me....

So today I learned that the Polygamist community is so displeased with my scholarly articles against polygamy that they have a nickname for me. It seems they commonly refer to me among themselves as "The Dark Prince" Lol!

Me?.... I'm just a warm li'l fuzz ball!

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MATTITHYAHU 5:11  

 This is becoming quite common. Recently, A woman stated her stance as pro-Ismaelic, speaking ill of christian ideology in general. Why? I offered no money for beer cigarette breakfast and type. I am a bad male for not helping. I had offered something different at times. She sputters the Islamic praise in racism.

 Found this today, in Zola Levitt 5/2010, which a remember telling her that the culture she speaks.

   Der Fuerer praised this male dominant religion of Islam, and spoke it to be worthy of the Reich. These are not kindly theological doctrines, and tell women their need to get back in place. Slavery too went on long after elsewhere it was abandoned.

These now return the compliment,and quote him and his mindset, which is to finish the Holocaust.Adonai Help Us

Polygamy all over the Bible but it is not like today's-let see how many wives out there are ready to give their husbands another mate?

Multiple wives!!!!  please no,  I can't keep up with the chores with one wife .

One more thing ,  One of these so called ( Rabbis ) ruined the  marriage of his wife and congregation . For what  , so he could justify his lust for another woman.  By calling you (  Dark Prince ) should be a badge of honor.  I'm sick of these so called teachers who twist scripture to fit their narrative  ! 

I don't practice polygyny (polygamy is multiple men, multiple women). I really don't want to support it really. 

However (yeah here we go, but just listen for a moment), it was never defined as a sin in the Torah. And if we are not going to go the route of the majority of Christianity and Judaism when it comes to removing or adding to the Word of Yahweh, then that means that according to 1 John 3:4, polygyny is NOT a sin. 

Yeshua said to judge righteous judgement. By whatever standard we judge others, we shall be judged. 

If we are judging other believers on an issue that is a matter of cultural taboos (and not actual Torah), then what does that say about us?

To condemn it and judge others who actually practice Biblical Polygyny is hypocrisy. It should not be promoted (because our efforts are best placed else where), but it should be ignored. 

I stand by my reply . I have seen this more than once . It destroys lives and congregations . I have a question for you ,  can you show me the vowel pointing in Hebrew in Torah for the name ?  Not telling you what to do or how to say the name , would like to know ?

One of the halachic principles which distinguished the Essenes from the Pharisees (whom the Essenes termed “Wall Builders”) was a principle the Essenes called “Yesod HaB’riah” (The Principle/Foundation of Creation).

The Pharisees were divided on the issue of divorce. The House of Shammai allowed divorce only in the case of an “unclean matter” (adultery) while the House of Hillel allowed divorce even if the wife only spoiled a dish, and Akiva stretched this to allow a man to divorce his wife because he found a prettier one (m.Gittin 9:10)

The Essenes said the Pharisees had fallen into a trap of Belial saying:

They are caught in…Fornication, by taking two wives
in their lifetime although the Principle of Creation (Yesod HaBriah)
is “male and female He Created them” (Gen. 1:27) and those who
entered the ark “went into the ark two by two” (Gen. 7:9). Concerning
the Leaders it is written “he shall not multiply wives to himself” (Dt. 17:17)
(Damascus Document 4,20-5,2)

The Essenes were accusing the Pharisees of effectively practicing polygamy in allowing divorce so easily, and in doing so, violating the Yesod HaBriah.

No doubt Messiah is citing Yesod HaBriah (The Principle of Creation) when he has the following halachic debate with a group of Pharisees:

19:3 And the P’rushim approached him, and tempted him,
saying, “Is it right for a man to put away his wife for every cause?”
19:4 And he answered and said to them:
"Have you not read that he who made man the beginning,
'made them male and female' (Gen. 1:27)
19:5 And said,
'Wherefore shall a man shall leave his father
and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh' (Gen. 2:24)
19:6 And now then, they are no more two but one flesh
only. What therefore Elohim has joined together man cannot separate."
19:7 But they said,
"And why then did Moshe then command
to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away
if she was not pleasing in his sight?” (Deut. 24:1, 3)
19:8 And he answered them and said,
"Because Moshe on account of the hardness of your hearts,
allowed you to put away your wives,
but from the beginning it was not so.
19:9 And I tell you,
every man that has put away, or shall put away his wife,
except it be for fornication, and takes another,
commits adultery. And whoever takes the divorced also
commits adultery.
(Mt. 19:3-9)

Notice that divorce and polygamy equally fall under the violation of the Yesod HaBriah. Neither actually violates the Torah itself, but both violate a halachic principle which is preferred.

Notice that Yeshua treats divorce as a last resort, which YHWH does not forbid, but does discourage. YHWH recognized that divorces happen in society and thus the Torah regulates divorce. The Torah does not encourage divorce, and certainly does not find it a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).

Polygamy, like divorce, violates the Yesod HaBriah. The Torah does not forbid polygamy, it recognized that polygamy was practiced and thus regulated it. The Torah did not encourage polygamy, and certainly does not find it to be a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).

Now imagine a leader in the movement wrote a book encouraging men to divorce their wives because they found prettier women, or because their food was not cooked to suite them. Imagine that the book called this a “shocking freedom” and a blessing even for women. Imagine the leader sends out an email soliciting pretty women to match with these men who are ready to divorce. Imagine he changes the whole focus of his ministry to promoting divorce to find prettier women. What would you expect the Overseers to do?

Just as divorcing a wife for a prettier woman violates the Yesod HaBriah, so does Polygamy. While polygamy does not violate the Torah, it does violate the Yesod HaBriah. A leader within the movement who encourages polygamy should be treated just as one who encourages divorcing wives for prettier women, and solicits pretty women to step into the dissolved marriages.

I hope this clarifies my position for those who wonder how I can say polygamy is not forbidden by Torah, while labeling leaders who encourage it as wolves among the sheep.



Ricky Moore II said:

I don't practice polygyny (polygamy is multiple men, multiple women). I really don't want to support it really. 

However (yeah here we go, but just listen for a moment), it was never defined as a sin in the Torah. And if we are not going to go the route of the majority of Christianity and Judaism when it comes to removing or adding to the Word of Yahweh, then that means that according to 1 John 3:4, polygyny is NOT a sin. 

Yeshua said to judge righteous judgement. By whatever standard we judge others, we shall be judged. 

If we are judging other believers on an issue that is a matter of cultural taboos (and not actual Torah), then what does that say about us?

To condemn it and judge others who actually practice Biblical Polygyny is hypocrisy. It should not be promoted (because our efforts are best placed else where), but it should be ignored. 

 The stirring of text to fix for pre-supposed right position is too common. Blocking  others, so, "Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.",  as many remake text to fit their desires. Endless debates and verbal fisticuffs.  I think I have heard it all. 1. Racists use text , ignoring the Ethiopian  wife of Moses.2.  Excess of vows for barriers, Denial of Passover to non-jews , and 3. Ultra-erasure of The  Old Testament also known as Tanak. Then too,  secondary placement of Brit-H'D'Sha, to where is could make that  Paul aka Saul erred in going to bless all nations. Our Caution is vital. Obviously.

Christo-Rabbinic method makes no betterment, nor tossing all out.

"Denial of Passover to non-jews"?  Scripture does this aside from anyone's "text", correct?

Please explain the many wives and concubines that Daveed and Moshe had? This was not condemned by Yahveh, but blessed. These days are also coming back, but not in the way that polygamist people believe.

Where does the Scripture say these were blessed for practicing polygamy?  The Scriptures matter of factly record that things happened that they do not record as a "blessing".  For example David committed an adultery and a murder. 

A friend of mine wrote this answer to your point many years ago:


    In ancient times, a man, as a patriarchal figure to extend his power and influence, used sex. You would multiply wives and/or concubines because in multiplying women, you would be multiplying your household, and the children would in effect be slaves from such unions. The amassing of these wives and concubines however was not to be viewed as the same kind of relationship made with the original wife and her offspring.  The original wife was not viewed as a slave and her children were heirs.
“Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. (Galatians 4:21-23)”
So Hagar, which is not her name but her status – alien woman - bore children of slavery, whereas Sarah bore Abraham a child of promise in freedom. Two forms of marriage -- one freedom and the other slavery. Abraham's household was fractured because of jealousy between Hagar and Sarah.
After the death of Sarah, Abraham legitimized Hagar and we learn her name, Keturah: "Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah." (Genesis 25:1-2) The point of Genesis 25:6, however, is that Keturah's children and the children of Abraham's other concubines were not considered his heirs. It is interesting to note, everyone of Hagar/Keturah children’s descendents are enemies of Israel – Isaac’s descendents.
Because of the conflict polygamy caused in his family Isaac was not a  polygamist!  Isaac's wife, Rebekah, like her mother-in-law, Sarah, was barren. But Isaac did not take things into his own hands and have children by her handmaids, nor did he take a concubine. Neither did Rebekah do as Sarah had done, and resort to bringing a servant girl to Isaac to produce a son for Rebekah in her stead. Instead of using human reasoning, and taking things into his own hands, Isaac TRUSTED YAHWEH!
Because of polygamy Jacob endured spousal rivalry that kept his family in conflict. Remembering this conflict, Yahweh commands: “And you shall not take a woman as a rival to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive. (Leviticus 18:18)” Interestingly enough Yahweh put a stop to the conflict that kept Rachel in a state of oppression when He took Rachel, Jacob’s second wife (Genesis 35:19), leaving only Jacob’s first and true wife Leah.
    “The earliest codes attempt in various ways to regulate the custom of polygamy. Not only Adam but also Noah, the second founder of the human race, represents monogamy, and on that account recommends it as [Yahweh’s] ordinance. It is in the line of Cain that bigamy is first represented, as though to emphasize the consequences of the Fall. (“Dictionary of the Bible,” edited by Frederick C. Grant and H.H. Rowley, Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1965, pages 292) The first record of polygamy is committed by Lamech: “Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. (Genesis 4:19, 20)” In a society where a man may have more than one wife they named each child, not after the father, but after the mother, because this obviously assures more precise identification. Lamech's polygamy is indirectly confirmed by the fact that Tubal Cain's other name identified him, not as the Ben Lamech, but as the son of one of his wives--by naming which wife in particular: Tubal-Cain Ben Zillu. “Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. (Genesis 4:22)” Tubal Cain's name identified him, not as the son of Lamech, but as the son of one of Lamech’s wives.
    Several prominent men in the Tanach (Old Testament) were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. However, where polygamy is reported, often in the same context we find the results of such relationships, namely, jealousy, strife and turmoil. It is true that the Torah does permit polygamy but does not prescribe it:  “If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. (Exodus 21:10, 11)”
Remembering how Jacob favored Joseph over Reuven, the firstborn son, Yahweh commands “If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father's strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. (Deuteronomy 21:15-17)” So, it is allowed amongst the laity but you must not deprive the original wife nor first born. These are laws of permission and governance not prescription and favor which shows how Yahweh understands the oppression of such arrangements.
Take the story of Hannah and Peninnah, the wives of Elkanah ben Jeroham in 1 Samuel 1. Peninnah and Hannah battled one another over a lifetime for Elkanah's affections and his offspring.
“Year after year [Elkanah ben Jeroham] went up from his town to worship and sacrifice to Yahweh Almighty at Shiloh, where Hophni and Phinehas, the two sons of Eli, were priests of Yahweh. Whenever the day came for Elkanah to sacrifice, he would give portions of the meat to his wife Peninnah and to all her sons and daughters. But to Hannah he gave a double portion because he loved her, and Yahweh had closed her womb. (1 Samuel 1:3-5)”
The overly fertile Peninnah bears children in rapid succession until it almost kills her, while Hannah finds herself barren for the first years of her marriage. Hannah has all of Elkanah's love and devotion, with nothing to show for it, while Peninnah finds herself the object of Elkanah's lust . . . and mother of his growing brood of children.
“Hannah was praying in her heart, and her lips were moving but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk  and said to her, ‘How long will you keep on getting drunk? Get rid of your wine.’
‘Not so, my lord,’ Hannah replied, ‘I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer; I was pouring out my soul to Yahweh. Do not take your servant for a wicked woman; I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief.’
Eli answered, ‘Go in peace, and may the Elohim of Israel grant you what you have asked of him.’ (1 Samuel 1:14-17)”
“Early the next morning they arose and worshiped before Yahweh and then went back to their home at Ramah. Elkanah lay with Hannah his wife, and Yahweh remembered her. So in the course of time Hannah conceived and gave birth to a son. She named him Samuel, saying, ‘Because I asked Yahweh for him.’ (1 Samuel 1:19-20)”
Hannah was given a child by Yahweh, so as a righteous woman, she gave him back to Yahweh: “I prayed for this child, and Yahweh has granted me what I asked of him. So now I give him to Yahweh. For his whole life he will be given over to Yahweh.’ (1 Samuel 1:27, 28)”
“Then Elkanah went home to Ramah, but the boy ministered before Yahweh under Eli the priest. (1 Samuel 2:11)”
The two women finally iron out their differences and raised a formidable family to carry Elkanah's name for generations to come. Samuel, the most famous of them leads his people against the Philistines, rules as a wise judge over the Israelites in time of peace, and anoints Kings Sha’ul and David in his lifetime. So even in a family of pious people, polygamy is still oppressive.


Misty Traeger said:

Please explain the many wives and concubines that Daveed and Moshe had? This was not condemned by Yahveh, but blessed. These days are also coming back, but not in the way that polygamist people believe.

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