Nazarene Space

Supporting the modern state of Israel ?


 


Orthodox jews are Zionist but there are two groups in ultra orthodox jewish community today: anti Zionist group and chardal religious Zionism.


Ultra religious do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel because is not a Torah state but a pagan state. The anti Zionist religious fight the state while chardalim participate to the democratic electoral
proceeding trying to access to political power to create a religious State. Others
like chabad are neutral.


Which should be the position of nazarenes about the anti Torah modern state of Israel?


Religious Zionism like chardalim and modern orthodox?


Neutral anti Zionism like chabad?


Total anti Zionism like satmar?




Any clue in Tanakh and ketuvin netzarim?



A ruling from the bet din?

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"Which should be the position of nazarenes about the anti Torah modern state of Israel?"

Israel has ALWAYS been "anti-Torah".
Thus, being anti-zionist on this justification, one could also be "anti-Israel wandering in Sinai", "anti-Monarchic Israel", "Anti-Hasmonean", "Anti-Judea", etc

When have they kept the Law perfectly?

And why should Palestinians / the UN be given the land?
Aren't the Jews at least more Torah observant than they ?
If the sons of Judah don't till the ground, Palestinians and globalists will.

"Israel has ALWAYS been "anti-Torah"."

can you present us evidence or document to substantiate this accusation?

"Thus, being anti-zionist on this justification, one could also be "anti-Israel wandering in Sinai", "anti-Monarchic Israel", "Anti-Hasmonean", "Anti-Judea", etc"

and did you not come from christianity which is divided a hundred times?

"When have they kept the Law perfectly?"

"Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they." (Shemot 12:50)

if you think of keeping the Law "perfectly" you are wrong. you miss G-d's point. He did not require perfect men, men that could only exist in your arrogant imagination but not in reality. here is the charge from G-d:

"Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever." Devarim 4:40

where now is your "perfect" standard? before it can go well with us.....

"And why should Palestinians / the UN be given the land? Aren't the Jews at least more Torah observant than they ?"

??

"If the sons of Judah don't till the ground, Palestinians and globalists will."

as tenants? yes. but only if we have no farmers.


Christian said:
"Which should be the position of nazarenes about the anti Torah modern state of Israel?"

Israel has ALWAYS been "anti-Torah".
Thus, being anti-zionist on this justification, one could also be "anti-Israel wandering in Sinai", "anti-Monarchic Israel", "Anti-Hasmonean", "Anti-Judea", etc

When have they kept the Law perfectly?

And why should Palestinians / the UN be given the land?
Aren't the Jews at least more Torah observant than they ?
If the sons of Judah don't till the ground, Palestinians and globalists will.
Beryl, you have strongly misunderstood me, and you seem eager to accuse me of Christianity's sins.

I am answering this sentence, written by Ezra Ben Yosef:

"Which should be the position of nazarenes about the anti Torah modern state of Israel?"

If modern Israel is "anti-Torah", then ancient Israel was "anti-Torah" as well.
Don't you get that ?

I am pro-Israel !
If THIS Israel of today is "anti-Torah", well then Israel has always been anti-Torah.
Open your ears.
God does not require men to be perfect before giving them a state, so if Israel should not be supported today, by virtue of it's breaking the Law once or twice, well, ancient Israel broke the law once or twice as well - get the idea ?

I support ancient and modern Israel - even though they broke and break the law once or twice.
You have to support BOTH, or NONE.
That's my point to Ezra.
the view of me and a close Nassaria brother of mine is that Israel has the right to live there because Alaha promised the Land to us Israelites and not arab/turkic outcasts who have no affeliation to the ancient Fillistines whatsoever..

BUT the way those Israelites are acting right now is NOT what Alaha wants and because of their acts he makes sure this Israel has no rest from it's enemies because we see in Sefera d'Yehoshua Nebia that when the Israel practiced Torah as a nation they had rest from their enemies but when they did not that's when the curse comes over the people..

in summary; the Land is God-given but the enemies hold a knife to Israel's throat because they do not practice Torah as a nation (according to statistics only 16% or sumtin is religious and all the rest is secular.. nough said??)

"You have to support BOTH, or NONE. That's my point to Ezra."

ok i get that now after you clarified.

pardon me.

shalom.



Christian said:
Beryl, you have strongly misunderstood me, and you seem eager to accuse me of Christianity's sins.

I am answering this sentence, written by Ezra Ben Yosef:

"Which should be the position of nazarenes about the anti Torah modern state of Israel?"

If modern Israel is "anti-Torah", then ancient Israel was "anti-Torah" as well.
Don't you get that ?

I am pro-Israel !
If THIS Israel of today is "anti-Torah", well then Israel has always been anti-Torah.
Open your ears.
God does not require men to be perfect before giving them a state, so if Israel should not be supported today, by virtue of it's breaking the Law once or twice, well, ancient Israel broke the law once or twice as well - get the idea ?

I support ancient and modern Israel - even though they broke and break the law once or twice.
You have to support BOTH, or NONE.
That's my point to Ezra.
If you support ancient Israel, you don't necessarily support the sins of Solomon or Rehoboam at the same time, right?
Well, you can support modern Israel, without supporting it's sins.... exact same principle.


Ya'akov ben Shalom said:
Both or none?? That is just silly. I and many Orthodox Jews do not support the secular Israeli state, which is based on a secular philosophy and NOT on purely Torah centered principles. I don't have to support a secular government and its policies to support the people who live under that government. Any suggestion to the contrary is pure propaganda.
The last days restoration of Israel takes place in stages:

1. I will lay sinews upon you,
2. and cause flesh to come upon you
3. and cover you with skin
4. and put breath (spirit) within you.
(Ezekiel 37:6)

In my understanding the first three of these were fulfilled between 1825 and 1948 and this is where Modern Israel is today.

The fourth will be fulfilled when Messiah returns and places His Spirit within the restored Kingdom of Israel.
I support Solomon's government... but not his sins, nor his government's sins...
when has anyone supported ANY human government 100%, in EVERY deed?
Never, not even in David's kingdom.
But I still support them.


Ya'akov ben Shalom said:
I pray for Israel the people, NOT Israel a secular government. The premise that I must support the secular state is flawed and certainly NOT Biblical. It stems from the secular Zionist movement.
And when Israel chose a man as their king were they no longer His nation?

And when some of those kings were wicked, were they no longer Elohim's people?

Secular government is all that is advisable until Messiah returns.





Ya'akov ben Shalom said:
I pray for Israel the people, NOT Israel a secular government. The premise that I must support the secular state is flawed and certainly NOT Biblical. It stems from the secular Zionist movement.

the secular Israel is Israel of the day. that's something you cannot help and something you are afraid to undo.

the prophetic Israel is still to happen, it now begins in our heart, and it is our undying hope: 'od lo' avdah tekvateynu.....

Ya'akov ben Shalom said:
I pray for Israel the people, NOT Israel a secular government. The premise that I must support the secular state is flawed and certainly NOT Biblical. It stems from the secular Zionist movement.
all true only problem is that just like in Yeshua's day according to statistics about 16% of a total of over 70% of all Israeli's today are religious the other 56% is secular (eats pork, approves gay's etc. etc.) so i'm like.. this is not the Nation of God and also the 16% that is religious is 10% chassidic/orthodox and we all know that most (not all) of their extra-biblical rules are not from Sinai but from men



James Trimm said:
And when Israel chose a man as their king were they no longer His nation?

And when some of those kings were wicked, were they no longer Elohim's people?

Secular government is all that is advisable until Messiah returns.





Ya'akov ben Shalom said:
I pray for Israel the people, NOT Israel a secular government. The premise that I must support the secular state is flawed and certainly NOT Biblical. It stems from the secular Zionist movement.
The modern nation of Israel is the United States only true friend in the Middle East, perhaps our only true friend in the World. Israel is the only true republic-democracy in the region. We are sister nations, related from birth.

Every since the modern nation of Israel was created, there are those who have sought to destroy her. Today the United States is putting pressure on Israel to take steps that are not in their best interests of Security. There is much talk of creating a so-called “Palestinian” State. This is flawed on its very surface, because there is actually no such thing as a “Palestinian”, at least not in the sense you have been told. Up until 1947 the term “Palestinian” was purely a geographic designation. During the early Zionist movement, Jews that came to the Land of Israel called themselves “Palestinians” while the Arabs that lived in the land tended to simply identify themselves as Arabs. In fact the Jerusalem Post was originally called the Palestinian Post.

When the Arab World saw how successful the “refugees without a homeland” argument had been in creating a Jewish State, they sought to begin making the same argument. However, it would not due to claim that Arab refugees need an Arab homeland, because there are already several Arab Nations, and even a League of Arab Nations.

Prior to 1947 there was no cultural ethnic group known as “Palestinians” only Arabs that happened to live in Palestine. One cannot point to the great Palestinian poets of the last 500 years, or the great Palestinian composers of the last 500 years. What are the great Palestinian literary works of the past 500 years? There are none, because there was no such distinct Palestinian culture. The idea of a Palestinian ethnicity was invented in fairly recent times.

Now there have none-the-less been calls for a Palestinian Homeland. It is important to note that the Arab nation of Jordan also occupies part of what was once called “Palestine” and the majority of its population identify themselves as “Palestinians” There is already a “Palestinian” homeland, it is called “Jordan”.

The so-called Palestenians have called for a return to the pre-1967 borders. But prior to 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan and the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt. Jordan does not want the West Bank back, neither does Egypt want the West Bank back. This is not about going back to the pre-1967 borders, this is about creating yet another Arab Nation which would almost certainly be yet another enemy to our sister nation, modern Israel.

If we are to restore this nation, we must stand by our sister nation, the modern State of Israel. She is our closest ally.

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