Nazarene Space

Hosea 2:11.  I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbaths all her appointed feasts.

 

The "her" here is Israel. I read this as the Feasts and Sabbaths are SUSPENDED until the Return of Messiah. This is in conjuction with the absence of the Temple where the corresponding prescribed sacrifices even in sabbath are non-existent today.

 

In other words although we keep tab of the appointed times or moedim, however we celebrate or memorialize the Feasts, they are not the biblical Feasts itself but made up human renditions.

 

In my desire to keep Torah, I want to keep the Feasts. But how do we keep the Feasts according to Scripture without the sacrifices?

 

Today, most Messianics and Nazarenes are keeping the Feasts according to Pharisee/Rabbinate traditions and times. Although the Karaites try to use the harvest and moon times, they too do not have the proper sacrifices.

 

In general, how to we keep Torah without the Temple?     

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to james, jim and the brethren:

please create a separate 'thread' for distinct issues concerning mesorah and qumran texts. as you see we are unethically hijacking roderick nepumoceno's thread and it is unfair.

he has both the need and the right to receive relevant posts concerning his intentions of the thread.

james if you can move some of these post to the new thread please do so.

jim, if you can do the favor please create it, i shall be there to participate, maybe james is very busy and has no time to marshal each post.

thanks.
I am not a Christian. You still have not answered my question. How do we celebrate the Feasts today? The way I read Leviticus 23 all the Feasts are kept only with the sacrifices. The Feasts are not the Feasts without the sacrifices.Now that there are no sacrifices, are the Seders the Feasts now? If it is, where in Scripture that justifies this:

According to http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/a/seder_golinkin.htm the Seder is a jewinized copy of the pagan feasts of the Greeks/Romans.

So this is what you cite as the faithfulness of the House of Judah? Are these the traditions of YHVH?

Please do not relegate me as simply anti-semetic. Like I asked, if you think that the Feasts can be celebrated without the required sacrifices then please explain why the Rabbis copied the idolatry of their masters. Even among the Rabbis they have not agreed even on the direction of the mazuzah when posted on a door.

According to Leviticus 26:
33. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36. `And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37. They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38. You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39. And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.
40. `But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41. and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt
42. then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

It had been 2000 years of your traditions.YHVH still have not remembered. Israel and Judah still walking contrary?

I pray that I could avail of the wisdom of the brothers in this discussion that we do not walk contrary to YHVH anymore.

Is it possible our pride and traditions could be preventing us from being humbled by YHVH?

Then our acceptance by YHVH will be life from the dead...

beryl etanah said:
"Thank you for being an insultive brother who is suppose to be loving."

your language against the Pharisees, Rabbis and our traditions are love-less and insulting; do not expect to gather apples from tares. here, in the nazarene-space you have a good ground to sow your seeds and you will reap what you sow: an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

"The whole point of why I opened this discussion is not to flaunt I am better than you spirit. On the contrary, I am really looking for the truth. Hence all my ignorance is before you."

if this were true you would have even the reservations to avoid insulting our traditions.

".. I see that you are THE MAN who knows all things with the spirit of intellectual violence instead of loving kindness.

it is only your *eyes* who see it that way.

"So are you saying today the Jews are keeping Torah the way Messiah wants them to keep Torah?"

that is an impossible question: who can read the mind of Messhiah and conclude this is what He WANTS, and that is not what He WANTS!

you know roderick you are fond of laying *pregnant* arguments and i swear you will never catch me with that.

be reminded that-- good answers can come only from good questions. this means that if you want to obtain a healthy answer oblige your self to offer a healthy question first.

"... And are you saying that the sacrifices in the Bible, e.g. 2 lambs sacrifced on Sabbath need not be kept anymore?"

yes.

read the book of Hebrews. and from now on do not *unconditionally attach* Torah keeping to the priesthood. just keep in mind that the Constitution has to be kept, while the Legislature reserves the right to erect or dismantle any or all branches of Bureaus or Directorate. G-d owns Torah although He has delivered it to his people already, which means He can modify any point of it with or wihout prior notice according to His universal plan. He is the TRUE MASTER of the Universe.

"So Mr. Better than I,..."

i am Beryl and i have addressed you Roderick.

be courteous still.

"... please just answer my question and not insult me."

i have answered one good question above. just try to get the point. i know you are intelligent, i can tell it by the way you express your thoughts in the English language: you are a well educated person.

only that... never insult Jewish traditions for i am here and it hurts.

"So how do we keep the Feasts in accordance to the Bible TODAY?"

according to the Bible... just the way it was centuries ago.

"Give me YOUR divine liturgies and prayers or probably just point me back to the Rabbis who have not lifted the CURSE of the people of YHVH for 2000+ years because of their false religiousity."

this one cannot come from a heart who has not lifted his "ANTISEMITIC" biases. i know how your churches poisoned your mind. this statement is a common tenet in the sunday pulpits.

"Once again, why is the spirit of a simple discussion have to be so abrasive?"

because the gentiles *honed* me so.
Roderick:

Keep every part of the 7 feasts, except the physical sacrifices then.
Try to keep all the commandments that CAN be kept.
What's the problem?
Would you eat leaven during Pesach, just because there is no Temple?
Proper punishment for adultery and several other sins require the Temple as well - since there is no physical punishment any longer, perhaps it's okay to commit adultery and other sins?

If you're actually honestly asking HOW to keep the feasts, then why is this thread called "the Feasts have CEASED" ?
You'll have to forgive those of us who find this fishy.

Jim:
You're totally right about the integrity of the text in relation to the Codes.
However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.
Because God can work with anything.
He can even turn the Nazarene-hunting Shaul into the leader of the Nazarenes.

These are some codes for you to peruse:
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Bible-Co...
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Bible-Co...

Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
how can the manuscripts reveal codes when the manuscripts are corrupt?
"I am not a Christian. You still have not answered my question. How do we celebrate the Feasts today?"

you did not answer my questions above also.

i have provided to you a link where you can learn how to celebrate the feasts. just click it and search in there.

"The way I read Leviticus 23 all the Feasts are kept only with the sacrifices. The Feasts are not the Feasts without the sacrifices."

just who said so?

there may be concurrent sacrifices required in the occasion of feasts while the temple stands. but now that G-d has withdrawn the temple and the priesthood has nowhere to work with, to where shall the sacrifices be offered for the occasion? being a gentile, in your case, does it mean that just because you cannot throw a party your birthday is not a birthday?

"Now that there are no sacrifices, are the Seders the Feasts now? If it is, where in Scripture that justifies this:

read your bible please roderick. i am lazy pointing to you passages using their ip address.

"According to http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/a/seder_golinkin.htm the Seder is a jewinized copy of the pagan feasts of the Greeks/Romans. that is according to them.

but your "according to them" does not apply to us because we have our own according to our rabbis.

"So this is what you cite as the faithfulness of the House of Judah? Are these the traditions of YHVH?

so you dismiss a prophetic passage in favor of an opinion by certain man claiming to be an expert in judaism aboutcom? that's not fair to Reason.

"Please do not relegate me as simply anti-semetic. Like I asked, if you think that the Feasts can be celebrated without the required sacrifices then please explain why the Rabbis copied the idolatry of their masters."

i did not claim that my rabbis copied some idolatries, it is you, and therefore, for ethical reasons the burden of proof rests upon your mouth, not upon mine because in what we keep and believe we did not copy it from any one.

demonstrate here and now how it came to be copied from idolatry, because my rabbis never claimed such.

"Even among the Rabbis they have not agreed even on the direction of the mazuzah when posted on a door."

and so.....? what's your conclusion?

do you think a whole nation goes to hell just because they erred in which direction to set her mezzuzah? answer me that.

let me throw your foolishness back to you: how many mezzuzot do you have and to which direction you set them and why?

therefore, do not bother yourself taking away the speck from our eyes because you have a log in your own eye.

"According to Leviticus 26: 33. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

wake up roderick. our land is not desolate anymore today and we are enjoying our sabbaths.

i advise you subscribe some reliable newspapers if you have no updated history books at home.

"...35. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36. `And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37. They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies."

hey, look around you lausey antisem, look who is fleeing from our sword (not theirs) and we are not fleeing anymore. we have now the power to move our territories against the invaders and return it back to them for the sake of *mutual respect and peace*.

do not copy-and-paste an antisemitic thought gathered from the days of Inquisition where our people were butchered easily by barbarians at the behest of a bishop or prince.

your interpretations from the Sriptures is not applicable anymore. let me point you to read chapter 11 of Paul's letter to the Romans. the time has come that the Jews learn to claim what rightfully belongs to us: our own Masshiah, a Jewish Masshiah, not greek nor was he a roman.

"38. You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."

but we did not perish like the northern kingdom. today we are back in our land as a nation again. Baruch Hashem! Baruch Hu.

"39. And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. 40. `But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41. and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt 42. then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land."

yes blessed be G-d who remembers His covenant, true to His covenant, and is merciful to His people! Omeyn.

roderick it seems i am seeing a rainbow! ha ha ha ha ha...

"It had been 2000 years of your traditions.YHVH still have not remembered. Israel and Judah still walking contrary?"

you are wrong. He is beginning to remember us, as the facts stand today.

THE MINIM USED TO INSULT US 1900 BACK: "How will G-d treat a bad horse?" my response: beat her or sell her away, but He will never kill because G-d knows she is His horse. G-d remembers well and He is a faithful Proprietor. NOW LET ME ASK A MIN like you: how will you treat a sickly cow after 1,900 years of failing medication?

"I pray that I could avail of the wisdom of the brothers in this discussion that we do not walk contrary to YHVH anymore."

ameyn.

"Is it possible our pride and traditions could be preventing us from being humbled by YHVH?"

which tradition? which pride?

"Then our acceptance by YHVH will be life from the dead..."

i have no issue about that so long as you don't offend my traditions. you don't bother us and we don't bother you.

Roderick Nepomuceno said:
I am not a Christian. You still have not answered my question. How do we celebrate the Feasts today? The way I read Leviticus 23 all the Feasts are kept only with the sacrifices. The Feasts are not the Feasts without the sacrifices.Now that there are no sacrifices, are the Seders the Feasts now? If it is, where in Scripture that justifies this:
According to http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/a/seder_golinkin.htm the Seder is a jewinized copy of the pagan feasts of the Greeks/Romans. So this is what you cite as the faithfulness of the House of Judah? Are these the traditions of YHVH?
Please do not relegate me as simply anti-semetic. Like I asked, if you think that the Feasts can be celebrated without the required sacrifices then please explain why the Rabbis copied the idolatry of their masters. Even among the Rabbis they have not agreed even on the direction of the mazuzah when posted on a door.

According to Leviticus 26:
33. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36. `And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37. They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38. You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39. And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.
40. `But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41. and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt
42. then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

It had been 2000 years of your traditions.YHVH still have not remembered. Israel and Judah still walking contrary?

I pray that I could avail of the wisdom of the brothers in this discussion that we do not walk contrary to YHVH anymore.

Is it possible our pride and traditions could be preventing us from being humbled by YHVH?

Then our acceptance by YHVH will be life from the dead...

beryl etanah said:
"Thank you for being an insultive brother who is suppose to be loving."

your language against the Pharisees, Rabbis and our traditions are love-less and insulting; do not expect to gather apples from tares. here, in the nazarene-space you have a good ground to sow your seeds and you will reap what you sow: an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

"The whole point of why I opened this discussion is not to flaunt I am better than you spirit. On the contrary, I am really looking for the truth. Hence all my ignorance is before you."

if this were true you would have even the reservations to avoid insulting our traditions.

".. I see that you are THE MAN who knows all things with the spirit of intellectual violence instead of loving kindness.

it is only your *eyes* who see it that way.

"So are you saying today the Jews are keeping Torah the way Messiah wants them to keep Torah?"

that is an impossible question: who can read the mind of Messhiah and conclude this is what He WANTS, and that is not what He WANTS!

you know roderick you are fond of laying *pregnant* arguments and i swear you will never catch me with that.

be reminded that-- good answers can come only from good questions. this means that if you want to obtain a healthy answer oblige your self to offer a healthy question first.

"... And are you saying that the sacrifices in the Bible, e.g. 2 lambs sacrifced on Sabbath need not be kept anymore?"

yes.

read the book of Hebrews. and from now on do not *unconditionally attach* Torah keeping to the priesthood. just keep in mind that the Constitution has to be kept, while the Legislature reserves the right to erect or dismantle any or all branches of Bureaus or Directorate. G-d owns Torah although He has delivered it to his people already, which means He can modify any point of it with or wihout prior notice according to His universal plan. He is the TRUE MASTER of the Universe.

"So Mr. Better than I,..."

i am Beryl and i have addressed you Roderick.

be courteous still.

"... please just answer my question and not insult me."

i have answered one good question above. just try to get the point. i know you are intelligent, i can tell it by the way you express your thoughts in the English language: you are a well educated person.

only that... never insult Jewish traditions for i am here and it hurts.

"So how do we keep the Feasts in accordance to the Bible TODAY?"

according to the Bible... just the way it was centuries ago.

"Give me YOUR divine liturgies and prayers or probably just point me back to the Rabbis who have not lifted the CURSE of the people of YHVH for 2000+ years because of their false religiousity."

this one cannot come from a heart who has not lifted his "ANTISEMITIC" biases. i know how your churches poisoned your mind. this statement is a common tenet in the sunday pulpits.

"Once again, why is the spirit of a simple discussion have to be so abrasive?"

because the gentiles *honed* me so.
Took me several hours to even understand your replies. I agree with you. Keep the Feasts without the sacrifices and whatever commandment is possible to keep. I am such a slow learner.

There was no deceit in my questions. Just real inquery. I will end my thread here.

Christian said:
Roderick:

Keep every part of the 7 feasts, except the physical sacrifices then.
Try to keep all the commandments that CAN be kept.
What's the problem?
Would you eat leaven during Pesach, just because there is no Temple?
Proper punishment for adultery and several other sins require the Temple as well - since there is no physical punishment any longer, perhaps it's okay to commit adultery and other sins?

If you're actually honestly asking HOW to keep the feasts, then why is this thread called "the Feasts have CEASED" ?
You'll have to forgive those of us who find this fishy.

Jim:
You're totally right about the integrity of the text in relation to the Codes.
However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.
Thank you for having me see another viewpoint. Just curious, are you a woman? The picture you are using with the breasts exposed is a woman right?

I am ending my inquiry here. Again thank you for passion on defending Jewish tradition.

beryl etanah said:
"I am not a Christian. You still have not answered my question. How do we celebrate the Feasts today?"

you did not answer my questions above also.

i have provided to you a link where you can learn how to celebrate the feasts. just click it and search in there.

"The way I read Leviticus 23 all the Feasts are kept only with the sacrifices. The Feasts are not the Feasts without the sacrifices."

just who said so?

there may be concurrent sacrifices required in the occasion of feasts while the temple stands. but now that G-d has withdrawn the temple and the priesthood has nowhere to work with, to where shall the sacrifices be offered for the occasion? being a gentile, in your case, does it mean that just because you cannot throw a party your birthday is not a birthday?

"Now that there are no sacrifices, are the Seders the Feasts now? If it is, where in Scripture that justifies this:

read your bible please roderick. i am lazy pointing to you passages using their ip address.

"According to http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/a/seder_golinkin.htm the Seder is a jewinized copy of the pagan feasts of the Greeks/Romans. that is according to them.

but your "according to them" does not apply to us because we have our own according to our rabbis.

"So this is what you cite as the faithfulness of the House of Judah? Are these the traditions of YHVH?

so you dismiss a prophetic passage in favor of an opinion by certain man claiming to be an expert in judaism aboutcom? that's not fair to Reason.

"Please do not relegate me as simply anti-semetic. Like I asked, if you think that the Feasts can be celebrated without the required sacrifices then please explain why the Rabbis copied the idolatry of their masters."

i did not claim that my rabbis copied some idolatries, it is you, and therefore, for ethical reasons the burden of proof rests upon your mouth, not upon mine because in what we keep and believe we did not copy it from any one.

demonstrate here and now how it came to be copied from idolatry, because my rabbis never claimed such.

"Even among the Rabbis they have not agreed even on the direction of the mazuzah when posted on a door."

and so.....? what's your conclusion?

do you think a whole nation goes to hell just because they erred in which direction to set her mezzuzah? answer me that.

let me throw your foolishness back to you: how many mezzuzot do you have and to which direction you set them and why?

therefore, do not bother yourself taking away the speck from our eyes because you have a log in your own eye.

"According to Leviticus 26: 33. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.

wake up roderick. our land is not desolate anymore today and we are enjoying our sabbaths.

i advise you subscribe some reliable newspapers if you have no updated history books at home.

"...35. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36. `And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37. They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies."

hey, look around you lausey antisem, look who is fleeing from our sword (not theirs) and we are not fleeing anymore. we have now the power to move our territories against the invaders and return it back to them for the sake of *mutual respect and peace*.

do not copy-and-paste an antisemitic thought gathered from the days of Inquisition where our people were butchered easily by barbarians at the behest of a bishop or prince.

your interpretations from the Sriptures is not applicable anymore. let me point you to read chapter 11 of Paul's letter to the Romans. the time has come that the Jews learn to claim what rightfully belongs to us: our own Masshiah, a Jewish Masshiah, not greek nor was he a roman.

"38. You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."

but we did not perish like the northern kingdom. today we are back in our land as a nation again. Baruch Hashem! Baruch Hu.

"39. And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. 40. `But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41. and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt 42. then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land."

yes blessed be G-d who remembers His covenant, true to His covenant, and is merciful to His people! Omeyn.

roderick it seems i am seeing a rainbow! ha ha ha ha ha...

"It had been 2000 years of your traditions.YHVH still have not remembered. Israel and Judah still walking contrary?"

you are wrong. He is beginning to remember us, as the facts stand today.

THE MINIM USED TO INSULT US 1900 BACK: "How will G-d treat a bad horse?" my response: beat her or sell her away, but He will never kill because G-d knows she is His horse. G-d remembers well and He is a faithful Proprietor. NOW LET ME ASK A MIN like you: how will you treat a sickly cow after 1,900 years of failing medication?

"I pray that I could avail of the wisdom of the brothers in this discussion that we do not walk contrary to YHVH anymore."

ameyn.

"Is it possible our pride and traditions could be preventing us from being humbled by YHVH?"

which tradition? which pride?

"Then our acceptance by YHVH will be life from the dead..."

i have no issue about that so long as you don't offend my traditions. you don't bother us and we don't bother you.

Roderick Nepomuceno said:
I am not a Christian. You still have not answered my question. How do we celebrate the Feasts today? The way I read Leviticus 23 all the Feasts are kept only with the sacrifices. The Feasts are not the Feasts without the sacrifices.Now that there are no sacrifices, are the Seders the Feasts now? If it is, where in Scripture that justifies this:
According to http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/a/seder_golinkin.htm the Seder is a jewinized copy of the pagan feasts of the Greeks/Romans. So this is what you cite as the faithfulness of the House of Judah? Are these the traditions of YHVH?
Please do not relegate me as simply anti-semetic. Like I asked, if you think that the Feasts can be celebrated without the required sacrifices then please explain why the Rabbis copied the idolatry of their masters. Even among the Rabbis they have not agreed even on the direction of the mazuzah when posted on a door.

According to Leviticus 26:
33. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
34. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
35. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.
36. `And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
37. They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38. You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39. And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; also in their fathers' iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.
40. `But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41. and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt
42. then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

It had been 2000 years of your traditions.YHVH still have not remembered. Israel and Judah still walking contrary?

I pray that I could avail of the wisdom of the brothers in this discussion that we do not walk contrary to YHVH anymore.

Is it possible our pride and traditions could be preventing us from being humbled by YHVH?

Then our acceptance by YHVH will be life from the dead...

beryl etanah said:
"Thank you for being an insultive brother who is suppose to be loving."

your language against the Pharisees, Rabbis and our traditions are love-less and insulting; do not expect to gather apples from tares. here, in the nazarene-space you have a good ground to sow your seeds and you will reap what you sow: an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth.

"The whole point of why I opened this discussion is not to flaunt I am better than you spirit. On the contrary, I am really looking for the truth. Hence all my ignorance is before you."

if this were true you would have even the reservations to avoid insulting our traditions.

".. I see that you are THE MAN who knows all things with the spirit of intellectual violence instead of loving kindness.

it is only your *eyes* who see it that way.

"So are you saying today the Jews are keeping Torah the way Messiah wants them to keep Torah?"

that is an impossible question: who can read the mind of Messhiah and conclude this is what He WANTS, and that is not what He WANTS!

you know roderick you are fond of laying *pregnant* arguments and i swear you will never catch me with that.

be reminded that-- good answers can come only from good questions. this means that if you want to obtain a healthy answer oblige your self to offer a healthy question first.

"... And are you saying that the sacrifices in the Bible, e.g. 2 lambs sacrifced on Sabbath need not be kept anymore?"

yes.

read the book of Hebrews. and from now on do not *unconditionally attach* Torah keeping to the priesthood. just keep in mind that the Constitution has to be kept, while the Legislature reserves the right to erect or dismantle any or all branches of Bureaus or Directorate. G-d owns Torah although He has delivered it to his people already, which means He can modify any point of it with or wihout prior notice according to His universal plan. He is the TRUE MASTER of the Universe.

"So Mr. Better than I,..."

i am Beryl and i have addressed you Roderick.

be courteous still.

"... please just answer my question and not insult me."

i have answered one good question above. just try to get the point. i know you are intelligent, i can tell it by the way you express your thoughts in the English language: you are a well educated person.

only that... never insult Jewish traditions for i am here and it hurts.

"So how do we keep the Feasts in accordance to the Bible TODAY?"

according to the Bible... just the way it was centuries ago.

"Give me YOUR divine liturgies and prayers or probably just point me back to the Rabbis who have not lifted the CURSE of the people of YHVH for 2000+ years because of their false religiousity."

this one cannot come from a heart who has not lifted his "ANTISEMITIC" biases. i know how your churches poisoned your mind. this statement is a common tenet in the sunday pulpits.

"Once again, why is the spirit of a simple discussion have to be so abrasive?"

because the gentiles *honed* me so.
Greetings Roderick -

I think you were absolutly correct is saying we should keep what we can.

We can't sacrifice now due to The Temple Mount being defiled, and only The Levites are authorized to perform the sacrifies.

But understanding them is important to understand God's plan, I know you said you were not a Christian, but I hope you will examine this page off my site:

http://www.lumberguy.net/FAQ7.html

Perhaps it will bring some insight - and I know you are a truth seeker.

Regarding the Codes:

The researchers at Harvard and Stamford spent three years trying to debunk the Codes, and part of their effort was trying different Texts, and only the two Masoretic Texts showed encryption, The Koren and and I don't recall what the other is called - perhaps just The Masoretic Text? I'm not sure.

I use the Koren Text - and I know there is 14 letters difference from the other Text - I also believe the first letter difference is in the other text beause I have found a highly significant Code that does not show in the other, and it is just beyond The Torah - they are both the same in Torah - no letter differences.

When the Harvard and Stamford researchers tried to debunk The Great Sages Experiment they also scrambled the letters, words, verses, chapters, and books - all changes destroyed the effect, and it showed in no other texts tested - unfortunatly they did not test The Peshitta, but they did run The Talmud and many so-called lost books.

At the end of the 3 years the head of The Harvard Mathematics Dept. made a short and sweet statement along the lines of 'the effect is real, what it means is up to the individual' and he refused to say more.

And I apoligize for getting so off topic in your Forum post, as Beryl so kindly pointed out - I tried to start a new topic, wrote for a couple of hours and when I posted it just went away, and gave me a page apoligizing for the Forum being down, so I wrote it all out again in a word processor and tried to send and it also failed - but at least I had it saved on the second attempt - I will try again later.

Beryl was correct and I apoligize.

Blessings -

Jim

Christian said:
Roderick:

Keep every part of the 7 feasts, except the physical sacrifices then.
Try to keep all the commandments that CAN be kept.
What's the problem?
Would you eat leaven during Pesach, just because there is no Temple?
Proper punishment for adultery and several other sins require the Temple as well - since there is no physical punishment any longer, perhaps it's okay to commit adultery and other sins?

If you're actually honestly asking HOW to keep the feasts, then why is this thread called "the Feasts have CEASED" ?
You'll have to forgive those of us who find this fishy.

Jim:
You're totally right about the integrity of the text in relation to the Codes.
However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.
"Took me several hours to even understand your replies. I agree with you. Keep the Feasts without the sacrifices and whatever commandment is possible to keep. I am such a slow learner."

roderick you are not a slow learner, you were only poisoned such that there is a natural obstacle in overcoming the pre-fabricated conclusions, prejudice and assumptions that have been in the subconscious mind for long time.

i very well understand your situation. but it is just difficult for me also to remain unreasonably passive against your statements which if they left unreplied with equal force would only leave unpleasant impression upon the innocent readers.

i am sorry. pardon me if my passion has exceeded the bounds of my compass or that my square was in wrong angle at you. i didn't seek an opponent: i was merely defending both my traditions and what-i-believe.

you are always welcome here. James has for long accommodated various opinions in his forum for people like us who are both learning and sharing.

only that, please do not use pointed arguments against pharisaic or rabbinic traditions, it hurts so bad.

pardon also our comrades who have somewhat derailed your thread to irrelevant themes; hope you can easily understand their passions also. anyway, whatever mistakes each we do the same we are racing toward who can most agree to the other.

"There was no deceit in my questions. Just real inquery. I will end my thread here."

i understand that.

maybe, it was only the wrong *assumptions* that your arguments were loaded at the back, in fact i suspect your questions were also gathered from anti-pharisaic sites since i have found many of them in the internet.

whatever it is, just keep coming back here to ask for more questions. you are most welcome.

Roderick Nepomuceno said:
Took me several hours to even understand your replies. I agree with you. Keep the Feasts without the sacrifices and whatever commandment is possible to keep. I am such a slow learner.

There was no deceit in my questions. Just real inquery. I will end my thread here.

Christian said:
Roderick:

Keep every part of the 7 feasts, except the physical sacrifices then.
Try to keep all the commandments that CAN be kept.
What's the problem?
Would you eat leaven during Pesach, just because there is no Temple?
Proper punishment for adultery and several other sins require the Temple as well - since there is no physical punishment any longer, perhaps it's okay to commit adultery and other sins?

If you're actually honestly asking HOW to keep the feasts, then why is this thread called "the Feasts have CEASED" ?
You'll have to forgive those of us who find this fishy.

Jim:
You're totally right about the integrity of the text in relation to the Codes.
However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.
----However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.

koren text is just another derivative from Miqra' the liturgy material that scribes copied from the original in the temple. miqra' is the original living texts used by the Jews in synagogues since the 2nd temple period, these were properly disposed with its own solemnity: you will not find MMS about this: we don't leave them to be desecrated by others later. there is not much difference between this and MT.

Christian said:
Roderick:

Keep every part of the 7 feasts, except the physical sacrifices then.
Try to keep all the commandments that CAN be kept.
What's the problem?
Would you eat leaven during Pesach, just because there is no Temple?
Proper punishment for adultery and several other sins require the Temple as well - since there is no physical punishment any longer, perhaps it's okay to commit adultery and other sins?

If you're actually honestly asking HOW to keep the feasts, then why is this thread called "the Feasts have CEASED" ?
You'll have to forgive those of us who find this fishy.

Jim:
You're totally right about the integrity of the text in relation to the Codes.
However, I do think God can use any text version He wants, and I've seen many codes in the Koren text.

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