Nazarene Space

The Lunar Sabbath Error
By
James Scott Trimm

 

The Lunar Sabbath Doctrine is a teaching that has taken root among many in the Hebraic-Roots movement in the last fourteen years.  This false doctrine seeks to replace the repeating weekly seventh day Sabbath with a floating Lunar based Sabbath, which could occur any day of the week.  This Lunar Sabbath theory teaches that one begins counting the day after each new moon such that the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days are Sabbaths.


The Anti-Semitic Origin of the Lunar Sabbath Theory

The so-called "Lunar Sabbath" theory was an invention that came out of Anti-Semitic Groups with ties to the Ku Klux Klan.

Jonathan David Brown is credited with being the first so-called “sabbath keeper” in this century (actually ever) to begin the practice of counting the Sabbath from the New Moon day rather than using the modern seven day week.  Brown published the book Keeping Yahweh's Appointments in 1998, which explained the practice, which has since spread like a virus.

Brown is a noted ant-Semite who has been convicted for his connection to a 1990 Synagogue shooting.  In 1992, Brown was sentenced to a 27-month federal prison term and fined $10,000 for accessory after the fact to a conspiracy to violate civil rights under 18 U.S.C. 3 and 241 (so-called Hate-Crimes), and for perjury under 18 U.S.C. 1623a. It was established in Court that Brown helped Damion Patton, described by Nashville police as a juvenile "skinhead", and Leonard William Armstrong, the Grand Dragon of the Tennessee White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan hide from authorities and disguise their car after Patton and Armstrong carried out a pre-dawn drive-by shooting of a synagogue in Nashville, Tennessee on June 10, 1990.

In court it was revealed that in the evening of June 9, 1990, Brown attended a meeting of an anti-Semitic white supremacists which Patton and Armstrong were also attending.  At 1:00 a.m. on June 10, Patton drove past the West End Synagogue in Nashville and Armstrong fired several shots through its windows with a TEC-9 assault pistol.  Fortunately the building was unoccupied so no one was injured.  Brown's apartment was searched under warrant on June 15th as police looked for Patton.  As a result of this search, authorities seized items belonging to Mr. Brown, which indicated his membership in the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups. In the days following the shooting incident, Brown helped Patton evade authorities by lying to police regarding Patton's whereabouts, by hiding him at his farm in Pleasantville, and by helping Patton change the color of his car from white to black with spray paint.  Brown gave Patton a license plate from one of his trucks and supplied Patton with enough money to drive to Las Vegas and stay there.  Some five months later, Brown allowed Patton to live again on his farm for a month. In September 1991, the FBI arrested Patton who plead guilty to his part in the synagogue shooting.

In 1994 Brown sought to overturn his convictions the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit.  Brown argued that the synagogue was owned by a corporation and not by citizens, and thus could not be covered by 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1982 (1988) which he argued applied solely to the property rights of citizens.  Brown also challenged as unwarranted the seizure of his personal property. The three-judge court upheld Brown’s convictions on March 21, 1995.

Three years after these events Brown published his Lunar Sabbath theory, and it has spread like a virus.

The so-called floating "Lunar Sabbath" is a recent invention. There is no evidence that anyone ever followed it until recent times. To the contrary the historical evidence proves that the ancient Hebrews (Including Yeshua himself) kept the Seventh day of the week ("Saturday") and not a so-called floating "Lunar Sabbath".


An Unbelievable Conspiracy Theory

The Lunar Sabbath theory presupposes that at some point in time, the Sabbath was changed from a floating so-called Lunar Sabbath, to the weekly Sabbath.  So when did this alleged change take place?

 Yeshua and the Pharisees clearly agreed as to what day the Sabbath was.  While at times they disagreed, at times, over what activities were permitted on the Sabbath, but they never disagreed over what day the Sabbath was.

As a result most Lunar Sabbath Proponents maintain that their floating Lunar Sabbath was kept at least until the first century, and that the alleged “change” to the weekly Sabbath came after that time.

This creates certain problems, because it means that Lunar Sabbatarians must place this change well within recorded history, and this created several problems.

To begin with this alleged change would have to have been made without any historical record of the change itself taking place.  This “change” also would have to have been somehow agreed to by both Jews, Christians, and even Samaritans, all over the world.  These groups who were at odds with one another, would have to have agreed to make this change together, without making any historical record of the change, and without leaving behind any dissident sects in any of these movements that rejected the change.  This would include Jews and Christians all over the world, as far south as Ethipoia, as far east as Japan, as far north as Armenia,  to institute this change worldwide without the benefit of modern methods of rapid communication.  Any gradual change would even more certainly have left historical footprints and dissident groups behind.  This is simply unbelievable.

Another problem this creates for the Lunar Sabbath Theory is that by placing this supposed change well within the reach of history, it is a simple matter to reach beyond this period, to show that a Lunar Sabbath was not used in or before the first century.


Authors of Confusion

Many Lunar Sabbath proponents use loaded terminology and misleading claims intended to confuse the real issue.

For example many will refer to the weekly Sabbath with the term “Gregorian” so as to wrongly imply that the seven day week is somehow unique to the rather late Gregorian calendar, or to wrongly imply that the long count of days of the week was disrupted in the change from the Julian to the Gregorian Calendar.  In fact there was no disruption in the count of the days of the week in this calendar change.  (see: http://nazarenespace.com/group/alternatecalendardebate/forum/topics... )  Others will refer to the Weekly Sabbath and the long count of the days of the week as “Roman” as if to wrongly imply that these were unique to the Roman calendar.  Others will seek to create confusion based on other Roman methods of long counting weeks, none of which impact the actual long count of weeks going from the present, back into antiquity.    Yet others will seek to create confusion with references to the changes of the Hillel II calendar.  The Hillel II calendar included no revisions in relation to the weekly Sabbath, and only impacted Rabbinic Judaism.  The changes of the Hillel II calendar are only brought up by Lunar Sabbatarians to confuse the real issue.


Six Days of Work

There are always more than seven days between the twenty-nineth day of a lunar month and the eighth day of the next lunar month.  As a result the lunar sabbath teaching violates the mitzvah often repeated in Scripture, and indeed even referenced in the Ketuvim Netzarim:

Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
but the seventh day is a sabbath of YHWH your Elohim.


The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls

There are a multitude of calendar texts which have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and which demonstrate clearly that the Essenes did not keep a so-called floating Lunar Sabbath.  The material is far to extensive to present here, and totally unnecessary, since I do not know of any Lunar Sabbath proponents who take issue with this fact.

I will add that Josephus writes of the Essenes:

Moreover, they are stricter than any other of the Jews in resting from their labors on the seventh day; for they not only get their food ready the day before, that they may not be obliged to kindle a fire on that day, but they will not move any vessel out of its place, nor go to stool thereon.
(Wars 2:8:9)  

If the Essenes kept a different Sabbath from the other Jews, it would seem very odd for Josephus not to mention that here.  This would certainly lead us to the conclusion that the Jews of the Second Temple Era did not keep the so-called Lunar Sabbath.


Back to Back Sabbaths

Under the Lunar Sabbath Theory, back-to-back Sabbath’s are impossible.  This is because all of the annual Sabbaths under this theory, would occur on days that would already be Sabbaths. However in the Second Temple Era, back-to-back Sabbaths were very much a possibility and there was much debate on just how to deal with these occasions.

Mishna Besah 2:1-2 deals with halachah surrounding what to do when back-to-back sabbaths occur due to a festival Sabbath falling the day before or the day after a weekly Sabbath (which can never happen in the Lunar Sabbath system):

2:1 "On a festival which coinsides with the eve of the Sabbath [Friday]- a person should not do cooking to begin with the festival day [Friday] for the purpose of the Sabbath.
But he prepares food for the festival day, and he leaves something over, he has lefts it over for use on the Sabbath.
And he prepares a cooked dish on the eve of the festival day [Thursday] and relies on it [to prepare food on Friday] for the Sabbath as well.
The House of Shammai says, "Two dishes."
And the House of Hillel says, "A single dish."
But they concur in the case of fish and the egg [cooked] on it, that they constitute two dishes.
[If] one ate [the dish intended for the Sabbath] or it was lost, one should not cook another in its stead in the first instance.
But if he left over any amount at all of it, he relies on it for the Sabbath.
2:2  [If the festival day] coincided with the day after the Sabbath [Sunday],
The House of Shammai says, "The immerse everything before the Sabbath."
The House of Hillel says, "Utensils [are to be immersed] before the Sabbath.
But man [may immerse] on the Sabbath [itself]."
(m.Besa 2:1-2)

Hillel and Shammai taught when Yeshua was a child, and the Mishna was codified around 250 CE.

Another example of back-to-back Sabbaths is found in the Mishna discussion about how to deal with a Sabbath that falls on the sixteenth of Nisan (the fifteenth being an annual Sabbath):

The bones, and the sinews, and the nothar of the paschal lamb are to be burnt on the sixteenth. If the sixteenth falls on the Sabbath, they are to be burnt on the seventeenth, because they do not override either the Sabbath or the festival.
(m. Pesachim 7:10)

Of course the sixteenth of Nisan could never be a Sabbath under the Lunar Sabbath theory.


A Sabbath that Falls on the First Day of Tabernacles

The Mishna also discusses how mal offerings were handled when the First Day of Tabernacles (the 15th of Tishri) falls on a Sabbath:

A man may offer a meal-offering consisting of sixty tenths and bring them in one vessel if a man said, I take upon myself to offer sixty tenths, he may bring them in one vessel. But if he said, I take upon myself to offer sixty-one tenths, he must bring sixty in one vessel and the one in another vessel; for since the congregation bring on the first day of the feast of tabernacles when it falls on a Sabbath sixty-one tenths as a meal-offering, it is enough for an individual that his meal-offering be less by one tenth than that of the congregation.
(m.Menachot 12:4)

Of course this passage must be speaking of events that took place prior to 70 CE (when the Temple still stood).  Of course under the Lunar Sabbath theory the Sabbath always falls on the 15th of the month, making this discussion meaningless.

 
The Ninth of Av

The Ninth of Av is a fast which commemorates the destruction of both the First Temple and Second Temple in Jerusalem, which occurred about 655 years apart, but on the same Hebrew calendar date.  According to the Lunar Sabbath theory, the ninth of Av could never fall on a Sabbath, yet the Talmud discusses the issue of what to do when a Sabbath falls on the Ninth of Av as follows:

It was in fact taught: If the Ninth of Av fell on a Sabbath and, similarly, if the eve of the Ninth of Av fell on a Sabbath a man may eat and drink as much as he requires and lay on his table a meal as big as that of Solomon in his time. If the Ninth of Av fell on the Sabbath eve [food] of the size of an egg must be brought and eaten [before the conclusion of the day] so that one does not approach the Sabbath in a state of affliction’.
(b.Eruvin 41a)


New Moon on a Sabbath

The Talmud also discusses the issue of what to do when a New Moon falls on a Sabbath, and records a debate which took place between the House of Hillel and the House of Shammai on the issue:

R. Zera replied: The New Moon is different from a festival - Since its mention is included in the benediction on the sanctity of the day in the morning and evening prayers it is also included in that of the additional prayer. But do Beth Shammai uphold the view that the mention of the New Moon is to be included? Was it not in fact taught: If a New Moon falls on a Sabbath, Beth Shammai ruled: One recites in his additional prayer eight benedictions and Beth Hillel ruled: Seven? This is indeed a difficulty.
(b.Eruvin 40b)

However with the Lunar Sabbath theory, such a debate would not have occurred at all.

Yeshua’s Last Days

One of the biggest gaping holes in the Lunar Sabbath system is Yeshua's final week on earth... his crucifixion was on the eve of a Sabbath and his resurrection was on the first day "when the sabbath had passed" (Mk. 16:1) and he was in the grave three days...

Now there is much debate over how these days are laid out.  Some argue that Yeshua was crucified on a Wednesday and resurrected at the very end of the Sabbath (Saturday night).  Others (myself included) argue that Yeshua was crucified on a Thursday, and resurrected the morning after the Sabbath (Sunday morning).

But no matter how you slice it you have here either back to back Sabbaths (Friday being the first day of Unleavened Bread and thus an annual Sabbath)  or two Sabbaths with a non-sabbath in between (Thursday being the first day of Unleavened Bread and thus an annual Sabbath).  Neither of these possibilities is possible with a Lunar Sabbath System. With a Lunar Sabbath system, if Yeshua was crucified on the eve of the the sabbath [i.e. the first day of Unleavened Bread- an annual Sabbath] and resurrected on the morning after the Sabbath [since following the Lunar Sabbath System those are the same day] he would have only been in the grave for one day, not three.

Which Sabbath was the Firstfruits Offering?

The well known debate between Pharisees and Sadducees over which day was the first fruits  offering (As recorded in b.Men. 65a-66a) also disproves the Lunar Sabbath System .  It is impossible to debate whether firstfruits is the day after the weekly Sabbath of the day after the annual sabbath if those are the same day.  The Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed on that point, and since there were no Sadducees after the first century, during the first century the Jews of Yeshua's day definitely recognized these as different days, and therefore could not have been keeping the Lunar Sabbath system.



The Reward Offer

Lunar Sabbath proponent Arnold Bowen has for many years offered "a $10,000 reward to anyone who can pinpoint a weekly Sabbath on any other day than by the moon.”  Specifically “on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th."

On August 16th, 2012 I laid claim to this reward when I was able to pinpoint the 14th of Nisan (Abib) in 30 BCE (Saturday, March 28th, 30 BC) as a Sabbath.

Hillel the Great became Nasi if the Sanhedrin one hundred years before the destruction of the Temple (b.Shabbat 15a).  The Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, so this means Hillel became Nasi in 30 BCE.

Hillel’s ascension to the office of Nasi took place in a year which the 14th of Nisan (Passover) occurred on a Sabbath.  This situation did in fact occur in 30 BCE.  At the time there was a controversy as to whether the Passover lamb should be slaughtered on the Sabbath or not. Thereupon Hillel proved by argument and tradition that it was permissible, upon which the Bene Bathyra (Sons of Bathyra), the then heads of the Jews of Judea, voluntarily resigned their leadership in his favor.  The account appears in the Talmud in tractate Pessachim on page 66a.  The discussion begins with a section of Mishnah (Pessachim 6:1-2) which states that many Passover duties override the Sabbath.  The Gemara then recounts the story of the problem that Hillel resolved which led to his being made Nasi (president of the Sanhedrin):

THESE THINGS IN [CONNECTION WITH] THE PASSOVER OFFERING OVERRIDE THE SABBATH: ITS SHECHITAH AND THE SPRINKLING OF ITS BLOOD AND THE CLEANSING OF ITS BOWELS AND THE BURNING OF ITS FAT. BUT ITS ROASTING AND THE WASHING OF ITS BOWELS DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. ITS CARRYING AND BRINGING IT FROM WITHOUT THE TEHUM AND THE CUTTING OFF OF ITS WART DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. R. ELIEZER SAID: THEY DO OVERRIDE [THE SABBATH]. SAID R. ELIEZER, DOES IT NOT FOLLOW A FORTIORI: IF SHECHITAH, WHICH IS [USUALLY FORBIDDEN] AS A LABOUR, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH, SHALL NOT THESE, WHICH ARE [ONLY FORBIDDEN] AS A SHEBUTH, OVERRIDE THE SABBATH? R. JOSHUA ANSWERED HIM, LET FESTIVAL[S] REBUT IT, WHEREIN THEY PERMITTED LABOUR AND FORBADE A SHEBUTH. SAID R. ELIEZER TO HIM, WHAT IS THIS, JOSHUA, WHAT PROOF IS A VOLUNTARY ACT IN RESPECT OF A PRECEPT! R. AKIBA ANSWERED AND SAID, LET HAZA'AH PROVE IT, WHICH IS [PERFORMED] BECAUSE IT IS A PRECEPT AND IS [NORMALLY FORBIDDEN ONLY] AS A SHEBUTH, YET IT DOES NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH; SO YOU TOO, DO NOT WONDER AT THESE, THAT THOUGH THEY ARE [REQUIRED] ON ACCOUNT OF THE PRECEPT AND ARE [ONLY FORBIDDEN] AS A SHEBUTH, YET THEY DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. SAID R. ELIEZER TO HIM, BUT IN RESPECT OF THAT [ITSELF] I ARGUE: IF SHECHITAH, WHICH IS A LABOUR, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH, IS IT NOT LOGICAL THAT HAZA'AH, WHICH IS [ONLY] A SHEBUTH, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH! (m.Pessachim 6:1-2)

GEMARA. Our Rabbis taught: This halachah was hidden from [i.e., forgotten by] the Bene Bathyra. On one occasion the fourteenth [of Nisan] fell on the Sabbath, [and] they forgot and Passover, R. Akiba holds that the haza'ah must not be performed, though the man is thereby prevented from joining in the Passover sacrifice. did not know whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not. Said they, ‘Is there any man who knows whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not?’ They were told, ‘There is a certain man who has come up from  Babylonia, Hillel the Babylonian by name, who served the two greatest men of the time, and he knows whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not [Thereupon] they summoned him [and] said to him, ‘Do you know whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not?’ ‘Have we then [only] one Passover during the year which overrides the Sabbath?’ replied he to them, ‘Surely we have many more than two hundred Passovers during the year which override the Sabbath! Said they to him, ‘How do you know it?’ He answered them, ‘In its appointed time’ is stated in connection with the Passover, and ‘In its appointed time’ is stated in connection with the tamid; just as ‘Its appointed time’ which is said in connection with the tamid overrides the Sabbath, so ‘Its appointed time’ which is said in connection with the Passover overrides the Sabbath. Moreover, it follows a minori, if the tamid, [the omission of] which is not punished by kareth, overrides the Sabbath, then the Passover,[neglect of] which is punished by kareth, is it not logical that it overrides the Sabbath! They immediately set him at their head and appointed him Nasi [Patriarch] over them, and he was sitting and lecturing the whole day on the laws of Passover. He began rebuking them with words. Said he to them, ‘What caused it for you that I should come up from Babylonia to be a Nasi over you? It was your indolence, because you did not serve the two greatest men of the time, Shemaiah and Abtalyon.’ Said they to him, ‘Master, what if a man forgot and did not bring a knife on the eve of the Sabbath?’ ‘I have heard this law,’ he answered, ‘but have forgotten it. But leave it to Israel: if they are not prophets, yet they are the children of prophets!’ On the morrow, he whose Passover was a lamb stuck it [the knife] in its wool; he whose Passover was a goat stuck it between its horns. He saw the incident and recollected the halachah and said, ‘Thus have I received the tradition from the mouth[s] of Shemaiah and Abtalyon.’
(b.Pesachim 66a)

Now this section of Mishnah and Talmud makes it clear that the 14th of Nisan (Passover) could occur on a Sabbath, and in fact did occur on the Sabbath as early as the days of Hillel the Great, who was elderly in the days of Yeshua's youth.

Now as I have said before, Yeshua and the Pharisees clearly agreed as to what day the Sabbath was.  They disagreed, at times, over what activities were permitted on the Sabbath, but they never disagreed over what day the Sabbath was.  So if we can demonstrate that the first century Phraisees kept the weekly "Saturday" Sabbath, we would also be demonstrating that Yeshua kept the weekly "Saturday" Sabbath. And if we could show that the first century Pharisees did not keep a so-called floating lunar Sabbath, we would be showing also that Yeshua did not keep such a lunar Sabbath, and thus that such a lunar Sabbath was not valid.

Now this section of Mishnah and Talmud reveal that on occasion the 14th of Nisan could and did happen to fall on the Sabbath as reckoned by the first century Pharisees, and therefore by Yeshua as well.  This is impossible with the so-called Lunar Sabbath System, in which the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of a Lunar Month were Sabbaths and the 14th could NEVER be a Sabbath.

I have made an official claim with Arnold Bowen for the $10,000 reward offered to anyone "who can pinpoint a weekly Sabbath on any other day than by the moon... on either the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th day of the Moon.".  I can now pinpoint 14th of Nisan in 30 BCE as meeting this criteria.  So far he has failed to make good on his reward offer. I will keep you all updated.

Well when I began writing this blog, it was my intent to write an exhaustive treatment of the Lunar Sabbath doctrine and its errors.  However the evidence against the Lunar Sabbath is so overwhelming, it has become clear to me that if I ever write an exhaustive treatment, it will fill a book, not just a blog.  None-the-less I believe enough information has been documented in this short treatment to completely disprove the Lunar Sabbath theory.

 

HaSatan wishes "to steal and to kill and to destroy" (Jn. 10:10) and he knows the time is short and has stepped up his war with those who proclaim both Torah Observance and Faith in Messiah (the two pillars of Nazarene Judaism) (Rev. 12:12, 17; 13:7). But no weapon forged against us will prosper (Is. 54:17).


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Replies to This Discussion

It is not my place to second guess the Creator and start deciding WHY He told me to do something, and then decide whether or not I want to do it.

Sandra L. Butler said:

Thank you for elaborating Parthenia.  Yes, and why the law forbids the weaving together of flax with wool. From a spiritual perspective, it has nothing to do with our physical clothing, but with our spiritual clothing, what we are wrapped in spiritually. And the less spiritual flesh we are wrapped in, the freer we will be both in this life and the afterlife.

I understand exactly what you mean. My husband has been telling me that for years, and I am continually working on that one... "...line upon line, precept upon precept..." (one of my favorites by the way). It is difficult when you have so many at different levels of understanding.

 

And yes, James and I are saying the same thing, one speaking from the carnal mind, the other from the spiritual mind. The temple symbolizes the heart, as does the earth, the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him. The six stone jars filled with water at the marriage in Cana symbolizes six thousand years filled with stoney-hearted people. Only those that are drawn out of the water (waste in their life) in the third day (which is now) will be turned to spirit, symbolized by wine. And you are so right Parthenia. The message is so simple once you understand God's spiritual language, a symbolic code (a profound revelation I received over a period of seven years, between 1998 and 2005). The names of the people, places, and things (many of which share the same symbolic meaning) repeat God's "end of days" message to His children over and over and over again, as this is how you teach children, and we are all children until we begin to eat of the spiritual meat and drink of the spiritual drink (the "new wine"). 

Godspeed,

Sandra

 


 
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

this dialogue is an excellent example of why we of Yahudah do not mix milk with meat.  It has nothing to do with drinking a glass of milk with a cheeseburger or hamburger.

It is as the Apostle Paul said, with the spirtually mature, Sandra, you can speak as you speak; however, sometimes we need to cut up the meat into small pieces so that the babies can eat and gain nourishment.  Yahweh give you wisdom in what I say.


I use to do as you are doing until Yahweh gave me a "Bread Machine and a "Food Processor."  Yaweh give you understanding of what I have just said.

 

Shalom
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

James & Sandra:  You are both saying the same things; however, on different levels.  For example in Yeshayahu (Isaiah_ it is written, that Yahweh's House shall be a House of Prayer for all people.  Those who don't understand what Yahweh is saying think that he means "the temple to be built on the temple mount."  While those who do understand what Yahweh is saying, understand that we are to be a people of prayer for "we are his temple..the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him, in other words, to allow Yahweh into our Hearts....He tells us through the Prophets that He does not inhabit temples of stone  (stoney hearts and buildings made by man)....as He Himself has made the temple that he desire to indwell:  Us."

Remember, Yahweh makes those who have been weaned from the "Milk" to understand Doctrine, and it is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, even as He says through the Prophets.  As Yahweh teaches you, you began to understand on a level that is very simplistic; however, so profound until it stuns the senses of those who are not being taught by Him and stumbling at the word.

Another example, In Corinthians, Paul tells Yisrael that we have no such custom of covering our heads; and that the woman's hair is given to her for a covering.  Many read this and become extremely confused; thinking that their physical dress somehow validates their spirituality and can't see that they are being pompous, prideful and stumbling at the word.

The two of you are at different stages in your understanding.  One sitting at the feet of the master is obvious here.

Shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

I agree James. The Torah is of the Spirit, and the process by which one becomes spirit in essence is contained within the first book of the Torah; in the 1st and 49th chapters of Genesis, before the Law, before the Commandments, before the statutes and ordinances. It is through this process that the flesh (formed inside of our physical flesh) is removed through a spiritual circumcision, by which we become a spiritual Jew, and as it is written: "salvation is of the Jews," for it is the Jews (the children of Israel) that were given this ancient instruction. And it's no coincidence that they add up to 50 (1 + 49 = 50, the number of chapters in Genesis) for it is through the application of the ancient instruction contained therein that we celebrate our ONE-TIME spiritual jubilee, the physical revealing the spiritual.  

The most profound truth that the "spirit of truth" leads us into is the truth about ourselves, an understanding of ourselves.

I agree with everything that you are saying, for the Torah truly is of the Spirit, it's word, Truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We are just seeing it from different perspectives... " In my Father's house are many mansions," the word "mansions" meaning "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy)," revealing their spiritual element. I simply have a different relation-ship with the Torah than you do.


 
James Trimm said:

According to the Scriptures, those that observe the Torah are being led of the Spirit:

14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to
sin.
(Rom. 7:14 HRV)

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will
take away, the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you, a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you
shall keep My ordinances, and do them.
(Ezek. 36:27 HRV)

But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth,...
(Jn. 16:13 HRV)

And what is the Scriptural definition of truth?  It is given in Psalms:

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.
143 Trouble and anguish have overtaken me, yet Your commandments are my delight.
144 Your testimonies are righteous forever: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145 I have called with my whole heart: answer me, O YHWH; I will keep Your statutes.
146 I have called You: save me, and I will observe Your testimonies.
147 I rose early at dawn, and cried: I hoped in Your word.
148 My eyes forestalled the night-watches, that I might meditate in Your word.
149 Hear my voice according unto Your lovingkindness: quicken me, O YHWH, as You
are wont.
150 They draw near that follow after wickedness: they are far from Your Torah.
151 You are near, O YHWH, and all Your commandments are truth.
152 Of old have I known from Your testimonies, that You have founded them forever.
(Ps. 119:142-152 HRV)

Please elaborate on how and where Torah was given in the garden, and in what way it was known by Noah, Lot, and Abraham. That sounds interesting. And by Torah do you mean the 5 books of Moses?

Sandra

As I said to "IamHebrew." We must each follow our own heart. If it is in your heart to follow the Torah as you do than that is what you will do. And I commend you. I wish more would seek righteousness, whether it be through obedience to the law of the Torah or through obediene to the spirit of the Torah. I could not agree more that it is not our place to second guess the Creator. I did not need to question why I was being shown the deeper truths contained in the Torah because they conicided with my own personal experience, a witness to the truth that was being revealed. As Albert Einstein said:  "Truth is what stands the test of experience."    
 
James Trimm said:

It is not my place to second guess the Creator and start deciding WHY He told me to do something, and then decide whether or not I want to do it.

Sandra L. Butler said:

Thank you for elaborating Parthenia.  Yes, and why the law forbids the weaving together of flax with wool. From a spiritual perspective, it has nothing to do with our physical clothing, but with our spiritual clothing, what we are wrapped in spiritually. And the less spiritual flesh we are wrapped in, the freer we will be both in this life and the afterlife.

I understand exactly what you mean. My husband has been telling me that for years, and I am continually working on that one... "...line upon line, precept upon precept..." (one of my favorites by the way). It is difficult when you have so many at different levels of understanding.

 

And yes, James and I are saying the same thing, one speaking from the carnal mind, the other from the spiritual mind. The temple symbolizes the heart, as does the earth, the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him. The six stone jars filled with water at the marriage in Cana symbolizes six thousand years filled with stoney-hearted people. Only those that are drawn out of the water (waste in their life) in the third day (which is now) will be turned to spirit, symbolized by wine. And you are so right Parthenia. The message is so simple once you understand God's spiritual language, a symbolic code (a profound revelation I received over a period of seven years, between 1998 and 2005). The names of the people, places, and things (many of which share the same symbolic meaning) repeat God's "end of days" message to His children over and over and over again, as this is how you teach children, and we are all children until we begin to eat of the spiritual meat and drink of the spiritual drink (the "new wine"). 

Godspeed,

Sandra

 


 
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

this dialogue is an excellent example of why we of Yahudah do not mix milk with meat.  It has nothing to do with drinking a glass of milk with a cheeseburger or hamburger.

It is as the Apostle Paul said, with the spirtually mature, Sandra, you can speak as you speak; however, sometimes we need to cut up the meat into small pieces so that the babies can eat and gain nourishment.  Yahweh give you wisdom in what I say.


I use to do as you are doing until Yahweh gave me a "Bread Machine and a "Food Processor."  Yaweh give you understanding of what I have just said.

 

Shalom
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

James & Sandra:  You are both saying the same things; however, on different levels.  For example in Yeshayahu (Isaiah_ it is written, that Yahweh's House shall be a House of Prayer for all people.  Those who don't understand what Yahweh is saying think that he means "the temple to be built on the temple mount."  While those who do understand what Yahweh is saying, understand that we are to be a people of prayer for "we are his temple..the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him, in other words, to allow Yahweh into our Hearts....He tells us through the Prophets that He does not inhabit temples of stone  (stoney hearts and buildings made by man)....as He Himself has made the temple that he desire to indwell:  Us."

Remember, Yahweh makes those who have been weaned from the "Milk" to understand Doctrine, and it is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, even as He says through the Prophets.  As Yahweh teaches you, you began to understand on a level that is very simplistic; however, so profound until it stuns the senses of those who are not being taught by Him and stumbling at the word.

Another example, In Corinthians, Paul tells Yisrael that we have no such custom of covering our heads; and that the woman's hair is given to her for a covering.  Many read this and become extremely confused; thinking that their physical dress somehow validates their spirituality and can't see that they are being pompous, prideful and stumbling at the word.

The two of you are at different stages in your understanding.  One sitting at the feet of the master is obvious here.

Shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

I agree James. The Torah is of the Spirit, and the process by which one becomes spirit in essence is contained within the first book of the Torah; in the 1st and 49th chapters of Genesis, before the Law, before the Commandments, before the statutes and ordinances. It is through this process that the flesh (formed inside of our physical flesh) is removed through a spiritual circumcision, by which we become a spiritual Jew, and as it is written: "salvation is of the Jews," for it is the Jews (the children of Israel) that were given this ancient instruction. And it's no coincidence that they add up to 50 (1 + 49 = 50, the number of chapters in Genesis) for it is through the application of the ancient instruction contained therein that we celebrate our ONE-TIME spiritual jubilee, the physical revealing the spiritual.  

The most profound truth that the "spirit of truth" leads us into is the truth about ourselves, an understanding of ourselves.

I agree with everything that you are saying, for the Torah truly is of the Spirit, it's word, Truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We are just seeing it from different perspectives... " In my Father's house are many mansions," the word "mansions" meaning "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy)," revealing their spiritual element. I simply have a different relation-ship with the Torah than you do.


 
James Trimm said:

According to the Scriptures, those that observe the Torah are being led of the Spirit:

14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to
sin.
(Rom. 7:14 HRV)

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will
take away, the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you, a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you
shall keep My ordinances, and do them.
(Ezek. 36:27 HRV)

But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth,...
(Jn. 16:13 HRV)

And what is the Scriptural definition of truth?  It is given in Psalms:

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.
143 Trouble and anguish have overtaken me, yet Your commandments are my delight.
144 Your testimonies are righteous forever: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145 I have called with my whole heart: answer me, O YHWH; I will keep Your statutes.
146 I have called You: save me, and I will observe Your testimonies.
147 I rose early at dawn, and cried: I hoped in Your word.
148 My eyes forestalled the night-watches, that I might meditate in Your word.
149 Hear my voice according unto Your lovingkindness: quicken me, O YHWH, as You
are wont.
150 They draw near that follow after wickedness: they are far from Your Torah.
151 You are near, O YHWH, and all Your commandments are truth.
152 Of old have I known from Your testimonies, that You have founded them forever.
(Ps. 119:142-152 HRV)

Anokiy, 

I look forward to hearing about the physical aspect of the Torah in your examples. As for the spiritual, the meaning (in part) is right in the plain text, which with respect to the spirit of the Torah is not usually the case, as spirit is something you do not see, not found in the plain text, but hidden in the symbolism, opened by revelation to those seeking the Torah's deeper spiritual truths. 

2 of the unclean and 7 of the clean.  2=unclean  7=clean. When you see the number 7 in the scriptures it refers to the spiritual purification process (I gave examples in an earlier post). We are to "differentiate between them," as the wheat from the chaff.  2 means perverted, a perversion of what the "two men"  with Lot symbolize, also referred to as the "two witnesses, the two olive trees/branches (Rev. 11:3,4; Zech. 4:11,12), embodied in Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, Elijah and Elisha, and John and Jesus.  They were given unleavened bread because of what they represent, and because of what  "unleavened" means.

The reason it's referred to as the law of Moses or Mosaic law (and not the law of YHWH) is because of what Moses represents on the flip side, and the meaning behind what YHWH said to Moses in Exodus 33:22.

For every physical truth there is a spiritual truth. One benefiting the body, the other benefiting the soul. 


 
Anokiy Baqash said:

I had put together a study on it but it will take me some time  to figure out where I filed it :) Gotta fix dinner now for my family, but ask yourself HOW did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean as he was told by YHWH to differentiate between them.

 

Note that when Lot was approached by the "two men" he prepared unleavened bread for them.

Those are the two examples that come to mind immediately. I'll try to find my study.

 

And yes, Torah as in the 5 books of Moses. I don't know why it is referred to as the "Law" of Moses as he was just a chosen vessel to write down what YHWH commanded. It is really YHWH's Torah.
Shalom! 

 


Sandra L. Butler said:

Please elaborate on how and where Torah was given in the garden, and in what way it was known by Noah, Lot, and Abraham. That sounds interesting. And by Torah do you mean the 5 books of Moses?

Sandra

You might want to read it again. I did not say that the two men were perverted. I was pointed out that 2 (in its negative connotation) means perversion, as in the (2) hundred of the (11) hundred shekels used to make the graven image in the book of Judges (revealing the perversion and percentage of truth found in the doctrines of Christianity).

Yes, they were 2 of the 3 that appeared to Abraham, As YHWH said, "Let us make man in our image," The "our" being YHWH, His Word and His Spirit (Genesis 1:2,3) as this is the pattern by which man is physically and spiritually made. Sodom and Gomorrah represent the perversion of the spirit and word of YHWH, which ends in destruction... both a physical and spiritual destruction.

Because they were from heaven touches on the deeper spiritual meaning as to why they could not eat leaven bread. Again, the perversion is not in reference to the two witnesses. And you are spot on with your insight of Judah and Ephraim being of the perversion I am referring to. Two more would be Israel and Judah, both of which played the harlot (Jeremiah 3:8), a perversion which has taken place within the Mind and Heart of mankind. 

Why seven with regard to sacrifice?  Because seven is the sacred number, meaning to complete, which takes place through the sacred spiritual sacrifices of YHWH (Psalms 51:17). This is how we are sanctified (made holy), how we atone for the perversion of the spirit and word that has taken place within us. Once you understanding what the receding of the waters represents (a spiritual event, taking place within) you understand why Noah made an altar... "an altar of the earth shall thou make unto me..",  the earth symbolizing the heart. Noah knew to build an altar because he was living the SPIRIT of the Torah. All that took place in the physical is to teach us what has, is, or should be, taking place in the spiritual. Adam and Eve did in fact transgress in the garden, chosing their own spirit over YHWH'S spirit , and their own word over YHWH'S word, the outcome of which was "coats of skin," characterizing the beastly nature that replaced their divine nature. This is the perversion of which I speak, and we are ALL guilty of it. And we have ALL received "coats of skin" in the spiritual sense (layer upon layer upon layer of invisible flesh), which can only be removed through a spiritual circumcision of the heart... "Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart." Jeremiah 4:4.

The bride has the name, and YHWH has a spiritual name. The wife, through marriage (intercourse) has the seed. I am speaking of a spiritual intercourse and a spiritual seed.

What is the (spiritual) lamb that we are to offer up? What is the doorpost and blood spiritually?

Just because one does not see or hear the SPIRIT of the TORAH doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

 


 
Anokiy Baqash said:

Okay, as open minded as I am that's a little way out there for me. CIP: the two men who were with Lot were two of the three that had been with Abraham, The Angel of YHWH was the third. I do not think these men were perverted at all, but messengers of YHWH who were there to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

The reason Lot offered them unleavened bread might have been because it was Feast of Unleavened Bread -OR- perhaps becasue they were from Heaven and could not eat leavened bread. There is prophetic significance to the timing of the destruction of those two sinful cities if it was indeed just after Pesach. Perhaps that's where your reference to two comes from about perversion. But I don't see howit is with two witnesses as they are the two houses of Israel; Judah and Ephraim.

If perversion enters in with regard to those two, I could see it from the aspect of how both, Ephraim as Xians and Judah as Jewish faith (both greatly and heavily influenced by Babylonian pagan practice, customs and traditions). Perhaps you could  explain it more, maybe I missed something?

 

Also, please note that YHWH commanded Noah to take 7 pairs of clean animals for sacrificing. Noah made an altar when the flood receeeded. How did he know to do that? and why? I reason it is because Torah did indeed exist from the Garden and Creation and it was taught to Adam and Eve, but they transgressed.

The point being the distinction between clean and unclean animals as outlined in Leviticus had already been established and Noah knew -exactly- which animals were clean and unclean.

The reason it was written down for Israel in the wilderness had more to do with "two" things:

1. They had been in captivity and had lost their way with regard to Torah and needed it written down for them as they were further removed from divine flesh (the linen garments of holiness as you say) and more entwined in the woolen flesh of man and the world.

2. Giving Torah at mt. Sinai was a marriage contract that was given to them as they were His chosen ones and this was to be the wedding.It was Shavuot.

 

Also, note: Torah was in play when YHWH instructed Moshe about how the children of Israel were supposed to sacrifice the lamb and put the blood on their doorposts that night -before- they left Egypt.

 

They had to be "retaught" Torah in the wilderness.It had existed since before Creation as EHYEHshua IS Torah and He existed before the world, so the WORD existed before the world and the Word being YHWH was the ONE who spoke Creation into exsitence and continues to SPEAK in the eternal realms. He has to. If He stops, all of creation as we know it will cease to exist.

Israel didn't know what it was, they just followed instruction, but YHWH knew.
 
Sandra L. Butler said:

Anokiy, 

I look forward to hearing about the physical aspect of the Torah in your examples. As for the spiritual, the meaning (in part) is right in the plain text, which with respect to the spirit of the Torah is not usually the case, as spirit is something you do not see, not found in the plain text, but hidden in the symbolism, opened by revelation to those seeking the Torah's deeper spiritual truths. 

2 of the unclean and 7 of the clean.  2=unclean  7=clean. When you see the number 7 in the scriptures it refers to the spiritual purification process (I gave examples in an earlier post). We are to "differentiate between them," as the wheat from the chaff.  2 means perverted, a perversion of what the "two men"  with Lot symbolize, also referred to as the "two witnesses, the two olive trees/branches (Rev. 11:3,4; Zech. 4:11,12), embodied in Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, Elijah and Elisha, and John and Jesus.  They were given unleavened bread because of what they represent, and because of what  "unleavened" means.

The reason it's referred to as the law of Moses or Mosaic law (and not the law of YHWH) is because of what Moses represents on the flip side, and the meaning behind what YHWH said to Moses in Exodus 33:22.

For every physical truth there is a spiritual truth. One benefiting the body, the other benefiting the soul. 


 
Anokiy Baqash said:

I had put together a study on it but it will take me some time  to figure out where I filed it :) Gotta fix dinner now for my family, but ask yourself HOW did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean as he was told by YHWH to differentiate between them.

 

Note that when Lot was approached by the "two men" he prepared unleavened bread for them.

Those are the two examples that come to mind immediately. I'll try to find my study.

 

And yes, Torah as in the 5 books of Moses. I don't know why it is referred to as the "Law" of Moses as he was just a chosen vessel to write down what YHWH commanded. It is really YHWH's Torah.
Shalom! 

 


Sandra L. Butler said:

Please elaborate on how and where Torah was given in the garden, and in what way it was known by Noah, Lot, and Abraham. That sounds interesting. And by Torah do you mean the 5 books of Moses?

Sandra

Shalom James - I too laid claim to Bowens challenge and got the same non-result - I have a paper called 'Lunar Sabbath Refuted' - Blessings

 

hi Ms. Butler,

 

evident acquaintance with gemmatria.

admirable mysticism.

so long as the letters of Torah cannot lose its concrete meaning that is good enough. the "spirit" of torah is actually the invisible "norm" of conduct that governs human action --despite unconscious to statutory provisions of Law (Torah) mandating the course of mental and physical actions. the human conscience is the true authority in that case aided with partial revelations or general statements pointing to halachic precepts which later came down into express provisions of law in sinai and the immediate period of Moshe and the elders. it was in that condition that Noach or any other pre-sinai (shomeyr) fathers acted on their earthly lives. Noach was counted "righteous" before Hashem (not from the basis of 613 but) from the sole basis that in all his actions he was consistently virtues as could not have offended 613 if imposed against him retroactively.

 

only a virtuous life is capable of living up a blameless life before Torah: without such a natural energy in each human spirit nothing can become acceptable to Divine ethical standards.

 

 

Sandra L. Butler said:

You might want to read it again. I did not say that the two men were perverted. I was pointed out that 2 (in its negative connotation) means perversion, as in the (2) hundred of the (11) hundred shekels used to make the graven image in the book of Judges (revealing the perversion and percentage of truth found in the doctrines of Christianity).

Yes, they were 2 of the 3 that appeared to Abraham, As YHWH said, "Let us make man in our image," The "our" being YHWH, His Word and His Spirit (Genesis 1:2,3) as this is the pattern by which man is physically and spiritually made. Sodom and Gomorrah represent the perversion of the spirit and word of YHWH, which ends in destruction... both a physical and spiritual destruction.

Because they were from heaven touches on the deeper spiritual meaning as to why they could not eat leaven bread. Again, the perversion is not in reference to the two witnesses. And you are spot on with your insight of Judah and Ephraim being of the perversion I am referring to. Two more would be Israel and Judah, both of which played the harlot (Jeremiah 3:8), a perversion which has taken place within the Mind and Heart of mankind. 

Why seven with regard to sacrifice?  Because seven is the sacred number, meaning to complete, which takes place through the sacred spiritual sacrifices of YHWH (Psalms 51:17). This is how we are sanctified (made holy), how we atone for the perversion of the spirit and word that has taken place within us. Once you understanding what the receding of the waters represents (a spiritual event, taking place within) you understand why Noah made an altar... "an altar of the earth shall thou make unto me..",  the earth symbolizing the heart. Noah knew to build an altar because he was living the SPIRIT of the Torah. All that took place in the physical is to teach us what has, is, or should be, taking place in the spiritual. Adam and Eve did in fact transgress in the garden, chosing their own spirit over YHWH'S spirit , and their own word over YHWH'S word, the outcome of which was "coats of skin," characterizing the beastly nature that replaced their divine nature. This is the perversion of which I speak, and we are ALL guilty of it. And we have ALL received "coats of skin" in the spiritual sense (layer upon layer upon layer of invisible flesh), which can only be removed through a spiritual circumcision of the heart... "Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart." Jeremiah 4:4.

The bride has the name, and YHWH has a spiritual name. The wife, through marriage (intercourse) has the seed. I am speaking of a spiritual intercourse and a spiritual seed.

What is the (spiritual) lamb that we are to offer up? What is the doorpost and blood spiritually?

Just because one does not see or hear the SPIRIT of the TORAH doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

 


 
Anokiy Baqash said:

Okay, as open minded as I am that's a little way out there for me. CIP: the two men who were with Lot were two of the three that had been with Abraham, The Angel of YHWH was the third. I do not think these men were perverted at all, but messengers of YHWH who were there to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

The reason Lot offered them unleavened bread might have been because it was Feast of Unleavened Bread -OR- perhaps becasue they were from Heaven and could not eat leavened bread. There is prophetic significance to the timing of the destruction of those two sinful cities if it was indeed just after Pesach. Perhaps that's where your reference to two comes from about perversion. But I don't see howit is with two witnesses as they are the two houses of Israel; Judah and Ephraim.

If perversion enters in with regard to those two, I could see it from the aspect of how both, Ephraim as Xians and Judah as Jewish faith (both greatly and heavily influenced by Babylonian pagan practice, customs and traditions). Perhaps you could  explain it more, maybe I missed something?

 

Also, please note that YHWH commanded Noah to take 7 pairs of clean animals for sacrificing. Noah made an altar when the flood receeeded. How did he know to do that? and why? I reason it is because Torah did indeed exist from the Garden and Creation and it was taught to Adam and Eve, but they transgressed.

The point being the distinction between clean and unclean animals as outlined in Leviticus had already been established and Noah knew -exactly- which animals were clean and unclean.

The reason it was written down for Israel in the wilderness had more to do with "two" things:

1. They had been in captivity and had lost their way with regard to Torah and needed it written down for them as they were further removed from divine flesh (the linen garments of holiness as you say) and more entwined in the woolen flesh of man and the world.

2. Giving Torah at mt. Sinai was a marriage contract that was given to them as they were His chosen ones and this was to be the wedding.It was Shavuot.

 

Also, note: Torah was in play when YHWH instructed Moshe about how the children of Israel were supposed to sacrifice the lamb and put the blood on their doorposts that night -before- they left Egypt.

 

They had to be "retaught" Torah in the wilderness.It had existed since before Creation as EHYEHshua IS Torah and He existed before the world, so the WORD existed before the world and the Word being YHWH was the ONE who spoke Creation into exsitence and continues to SPEAK in the eternal realms. He has to. If He stops, all of creation as we know it will cease to exist.

Israel didn't know what it was, they just followed instruction, but YHWH knew.
 
Sandra L. Butler said:

Anokiy, 

I look forward to hearing about the physical aspect of the Torah in your examples. As for the spiritual, the meaning (in part) is right in the plain text, which with respect to the spirit of the Torah is not usually the case, as spirit is something you do not see, not found in the plain text, but hidden in the symbolism, opened by revelation to those seeking the Torah's deeper spiritual truths. 

2 of the unclean and 7 of the clean.  2=unclean  7=clean. When you see the number 7 in the scriptures it refers to the spiritual purification process (I gave examples in an earlier post). We are to "differentiate between them," as the wheat from the chaff.  2 means perverted, a perversion of what the "two men"  with Lot symbolize, also referred to as the "two witnesses, the two olive trees/branches (Rev. 11:3,4; Zech. 4:11,12), embodied in Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, Elijah and Elisha, and John and Jesus.  They were given unleavened bread because of what they represent, and because of what  "unleavened" means.

The reason it's referred to as the law of Moses or Mosaic law (and not the law of YHWH) is because of what Moses represents on the flip side, and the meaning behind what YHWH said to Moses in Exodus 33:22.

For every physical truth there is a spiritual truth. One benefiting the body, the other benefiting the soul. 


 
Anokiy Baqash said:

I had put together a study on it but it will take me some time  to figure out where I filed it :) Gotta fix dinner now for my family, but ask yourself HOW did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean as he was told by YHWH to differentiate between them.

 

Note that when Lot was approached by the "two men" he prepared unleavened bread for them.

Those are the two examples that come to mind immediately. I'll try to find my study.

 

And yes, Torah as in the 5 books of Moses. I don't know why it is referred to as the "Law" of Moses as he was just a chosen vessel to write down what YHWH commanded. It is really YHWH's Torah.
Shalom! 

 


Sandra L. Butler said:

Please elaborate on how and where Torah was given in the garden, and in what way it was known by Noah, Lot, and Abraham. That sounds interesting. And by Torah do you mean the 5 books of Moses?

Sandra

WoW! I really don't care if the Klu KLux Klan or the Jackson Five believed in a Solar/Lunar Calendar they dictate to nobody YaH's word dictates to them. If they are right about one thing good for them. If every month starts with New Moon a day of rest and surely you do not deny that? The word declares work 6 days and rest that sets the 8th day of every month as a monthly Shabbat. Has nothing to do with 7th day the emphasis is on resting on the 7th day after working 6. Much different.

How can you deny the vast amount of scripture setting the 8th & 15th as as Shabbat? 

This comment seems to have been overlooked in this thread. Comments anyone? "Lunar Sabbath" teachings aside. I'm wondering about the possibility of concealed or visible new moons being another possible sabbath in addition to our weekly and high Sabbaths.



Jessica D. Atherton said:

my thoughts on the lunar Sabbath are that we are to watch for the new moon and it is to be a Sabbath.  I will have to look more, I do know that we have special readings for the new moon

Where does the Torah supposedly say that every New Moon is a Sabbath?

There seems to be plenty of mentionings. (In additional books) Almost POSSIBLY too many to assume each one is only referring to the 7th month moon. .

1Sa_20:5 And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.
1Sa_20:18 Then Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the new moon: and thou shalt be missed, because thy seat will be empty.
1Sa_20:24 So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat.
2Ki_4:23 And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.
Psa_81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
Isa_66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Eze_46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze_46:6 And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.
Amo_8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

Gary and Mikha El ,

Those scriptures prove nothing regarding  lunar sabbath. Sabbath and new moon could easily be two separate things.

Here is a question for you:

Numbers 29:12 to 29:35 Eight days of detailed sacrifices. On each day the "tamid", the continual daily sacrifice, is specifically prescribed.

Why is there no mention of the sabbath sacrifice at all on any of the eight days or the appearance of the sabbath sacrifice? Numbers 28:10  "the burnt offering of every sabbath."

If the daily sacrifice is mentioned for every single day then why not the weightier sabbath sacrifice?

It is because the weekly sabbath is not always on the same day every year.

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