Nazarene Space

The Lunar Sabbath Error
By
James Scott Trimm

 

The Lunar Sabbath Doctrine is a teaching that has taken root among many in the Hebraic-Roots movement in the last fourteen years.  This false doctrine seeks to replace the repeating weekly seventh day Sabbath with a floating Lunar based Sabbath, which could occur any day of the week.  This Lunar Sabbath theory teaches that one begins counting the day after each new moon such that the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days are Sabbaths.


The Anti-Semitic Origin of the Lunar Sabbath Theory

The so-called "Lunar Sabbath" theory was an invention that came out of Anti-Semitic Groups with ties to the Ku Klux Klan.

Jonathan David Brown is credited with being the first so-called “sabbath keeper” in this century (actually ever) to begin the practice of counting the Sabbath from the New Moon day rather than using the modern seven day week.  Brown published the book Keeping Yahweh's Appointments in 1998, which explained the practice, which has since spread like a virus.

Brown is a noted ant-Semite who has been convicted for his connection to a 1990 Synagogue shooting.  In 1992, Brown was sentenced to a 27-month federal prison term and fined $10,000 for accessory after the fact to a conspiracy to violate civil rights under 18 U.S.C. 3 and 241 (so-called Hate-Crimes), and for perjury under 18 U.S.C. 1623a. It was established in Court that Brown helped Damion Patton, described by Nashville police as a juvenile "skinhead", and Leonard William Armstrong, the Grand Dragon of the Tennessee White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan hide from authorities and disguise their car after Patton and Armstrong carried out a pre-dawn drive-by shooting of a synagogue in Nashville, Tennessee on June 10, 1990.

In court it was revealed that in the evening of June 9, 1990, Brown attended a meeting of an anti-Semitic white supremacists which Patton and Armstrong were also attending.  At 1:00 a.m. on June 10, Patton drove past the West End Synagogue in Nashville and Armstrong fired several shots through its windows with a TEC-9 assault pistol.  Fortunately the building was unoccupied so no one was injured.  Brown's apartment was searched under warrant on June 15th as police looked for Patton.  As a result of this search, authorities seized items belonging to Mr. Brown, which indicated his membership in the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups. In the days following the shooting incident, Brown helped Patton evade authorities by lying to police regarding Patton's whereabouts, by hiding him at his farm in Pleasantville, and by helping Patton change the color of his car from white to black with spray paint.  Brown gave Patton a license plate from one of his trucks and supplied Patton with enough money to drive to Las Vegas and stay there.  Some five months later, Brown allowed Patton to live again on his farm for a month. In September 1991, the FBI arrested Patton who plead guilty to his part in the synagogue shooting.

In 1994 Brown sought to overturn his convictions the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit.  Brown argued that the synagogue was owned by a corporation and not by citizens, and thus could not be covered by 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1982 (1988) which he argued applied solely to the property rights of citizens.  Brown also challenged as unwarranted the seizure of his personal property. The three-judge court upheld Brown’s convictions on March 21, 1995.

Three years after these events Brown published his Lunar Sabbath theory, and it has spread like a virus.

The so-called floating "Lunar Sabbath" is a recent invention. There is no evidence that anyone ever followed it until recent times. To the contrary the historical evidence proves that the ancient Hebrews (Including Yeshua himself) kept the Seventh day of the week ("Saturday") and not a so-called floating "Lunar Sabbath".


An Unbelievable Conspiracy Theory

The Lunar Sabbath theory presupposes that at some point in time, the Sabbath was changed from a floating so-called Lunar Sabbath, to the weekly Sabbath.  So when did this alleged change take place?

 Yeshua and the Pharisees clearly agreed as to what day the Sabbath was.  While at times they disagreed, at times, over what activities were permitted on the Sabbath, but they never disagreed over what day the Sabbath was.

As a result most Lunar Sabbath Proponents maintain that their floating Lunar Sabbath was kept at least until the first century, and that the alleged “change” to the weekly Sabbath came after that time.

This creates certain problems, because it means that Lunar Sabbatarians must place this change well within recorded history, and this created several problems.

To begin with this alleged change would have to have been made without any historical record of the change itself taking place.  This “change” also would have to have been somehow agreed to by both Jews, Christians, and even Samaritans, all over the world.  These groups who were at odds with one another, would have to have agreed to make this change together, without making any historical record of the change, and without leaving behind any dissident sects in any of these movements that rejected the change.  This would include Jews and Christians all over the world, as far south as Ethipoia, as far east as Japan, as far north as Armenia,  to institute this change worldwide without the benefit of modern methods of rapid communication.  Any gradual change would even more certainly have left historical footprints and dissident groups behind.  This is simply unbelievable.

Another problem this creates for the Lunar Sabbath Theory is that by placing this supposed change well within the reach of history, it is a simple matter to reach beyond this period, to show that a Lunar Sabbath was not used in or before the first century.


Authors of Confusion

Many Lunar Sabbath proponents use loaded terminology and misleading claims intended to confuse the real issue.

For example many will refer to the weekly Sabbath with the term “Gregorian” so as to wrongly imply that the seven day week is somehow unique to the rather late Gregorian calendar, or to wrongly imply that the long count of days of the week was disrupted in the change from the Julian to the Gregorian Calendar.  In fact there was no disruption in the count of the days of the week in this calendar change.  (see: http://nazarenespace.com/group/alternatecalendardebate/forum/topics... )  Others will refer to the Weekly Sabbath and the long count of the days of the week as “Roman” as if to wrongly imply that these were unique to the Roman calendar.  Others will seek to create confusion based on other Roman methods of long counting weeks, none of which impact the actual long count of weeks going from the present, back into antiquity.    Yet others will seek to create confusion with references to the changes of the Hillel II calendar.  The Hillel II calendar included no revisions in relation to the weekly Sabbath, and only impacted Rabbinic Judaism.  The changes of the Hillel II calendar are only brought up by Lunar Sabbatarians to confuse the real issue.


Six Days of Work

There are always more than seven days between the twenty-nineth day of a lunar month and the eighth day of the next lunar month.  As a result the lunar sabbath teaching violates the mitzvah often repeated in Scripture, and indeed even referenced in the Ketuvim Netzarim:

Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
but the seventh day is a sabbath of YHWH your Elohim.


The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls

There are a multitude of calendar texts which have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and which demonstrate clearly that the Essenes did not keep a so-called floating Lunar Sabbath.  The material is far to extensive to present here, and totally unnecessary, since I do not know of any Lunar Sabbath proponents who take issue with this fact.

I will add that Josephus writes of the Essenes:

Moreover, they are stricter than any other of the Jews in resting from their labors on the seventh day; for they not only get their food ready the day before, that they may not be obliged to kindle a fire on that day, but they will not move any vessel out of its place, nor go to stool thereon.
(Wars 2:8:9)  

If the Essenes kept a different Sabbath from the other Jews, it would seem very odd for Josephus not to mention that here.  This would certainly lead us to the conclusion that the Jews of the Second Temple Era did not keep the so-called Lunar Sabbath.


Back to Back Sabbaths

Under the Lunar Sabbath Theory, back-to-back Sabbath’s are impossible.  This is because all of the annual Sabbaths under this theory, would occur on days that would already be Sabbaths. However in the Second Temple Era, back-to-back Sabbaths were very much a possibility and there was much debate on just how to deal with these occasions.

Mishna Besah 2:1-2 deals with halachah surrounding what to do when back-to-back sabbaths occur due to a festival Sabbath falling the day before or the day after a weekly Sabbath (which can never happen in the Lunar Sabbath system):

2:1 "On a festival which coinsides with the eve of the Sabbath [Friday]- a person should not do cooking to begin with the festival day [Friday] for the purpose of the Sabbath.
But he prepares food for the festival day, and he leaves something over, he has lefts it over for use on the Sabbath.
And he prepares a cooked dish on the eve of the festival day [Thursday] and relies on it [to prepare food on Friday] for the Sabbath as well.
The House of Shammai says, "Two dishes."
And the House of Hillel says, "A single dish."
But they concur in the case of fish and the egg [cooked] on it, that they constitute two dishes.
[If] one ate [the dish intended for the Sabbath] or it was lost, one should not cook another in its stead in the first instance.
But if he left over any amount at all of it, he relies on it for the Sabbath.
2:2  [If the festival day] coincided with the day after the Sabbath [Sunday],
The House of Shammai says, "The immerse everything before the Sabbath."
The House of Hillel says, "Utensils [are to be immersed] before the Sabbath.
But man [may immerse] on the Sabbath [itself]."
(m.Besa 2:1-2)

Hillel and Shammai taught when Yeshua was a child, and the Mishna was codified around 250 CE.

Another example of back-to-back Sabbaths is found in the Mishna discussion about how to deal with a Sabbath that falls on the sixteenth of Nisan (the fifteenth being an annual Sabbath):

The bones, and the sinews, and the nothar of the paschal lamb are to be burnt on the sixteenth. If the sixteenth falls on the Sabbath, they are to be burnt on the seventeenth, because they do not override either the Sabbath or the festival.
(m. Pesachim 7:10)

Of course the sixteenth of Nisan could never be a Sabbath under the Lunar Sabbath theory.


A Sabbath that Falls on the First Day of Tabernacles

The Mishna also discusses how mal offerings were handled when the First Day of Tabernacles (the 15th of Tishri) falls on a Sabbath:

A man may offer a meal-offering consisting of sixty tenths and bring them in one vessel if a man said, I take upon myself to offer sixty tenths, he may bring them in one vessel. But if he said, I take upon myself to offer sixty-one tenths, he must bring sixty in one vessel and the one in another vessel; for since the congregation bring on the first day of the feast of tabernacles when it falls on a Sabbath sixty-one tenths as a meal-offering, it is enough for an individual that his meal-offering be less by one tenth than that of the congregation.
(m.Menachot 12:4)

Of course this passage must be speaking of events that took place prior to 70 CE (when the Temple still stood).  Of course under the Lunar Sabbath theory the Sabbath always falls on the 15th of the month, making this discussion meaningless.

 
The Ninth of Av

The Ninth of Av is a fast which commemorates the destruction of both the First Temple and Second Temple in Jerusalem, which occurred about 655 years apart, but on the same Hebrew calendar date.  According to the Lunar Sabbath theory, the ninth of Av could never fall on a Sabbath, yet the Talmud discusses the issue of what to do when a Sabbath falls on the Ninth of Av as follows:

It was in fact taught: If the Ninth of Av fell on a Sabbath and, similarly, if the eve of the Ninth of Av fell on a Sabbath a man may eat and drink as much as he requires and lay on his table a meal as big as that of Solomon in his time. If the Ninth of Av fell on the Sabbath eve [food] of the size of an egg must be brought and eaten [before the conclusion of the day] so that one does not approach the Sabbath in a state of affliction’.
(b.Eruvin 41a)


New Moon on a Sabbath

The Talmud also discusses the issue of what to do when a New Moon falls on a Sabbath, and records a debate which took place between the House of Hillel and the House of Shammai on the issue:

R. Zera replied: The New Moon is different from a festival - Since its mention is included in the benediction on the sanctity of the day in the morning and evening prayers it is also included in that of the additional prayer. But do Beth Shammai uphold the view that the mention of the New Moon is to be included? Was it not in fact taught: If a New Moon falls on a Sabbath, Beth Shammai ruled: One recites in his additional prayer eight benedictions and Beth Hillel ruled: Seven? This is indeed a difficulty.
(b.Eruvin 40b)

However with the Lunar Sabbath theory, such a debate would not have occurred at all.

Yeshua’s Last Days

One of the biggest gaping holes in the Lunar Sabbath system is Yeshua's final week on earth... his crucifixion was on the eve of a Sabbath and his resurrection was on the first day "when the sabbath had passed" (Mk. 16:1) and he was in the grave three days...

Now there is much debate over how these days are laid out.  Some argue that Yeshua was crucified on a Wednesday and resurrected at the very end of the Sabbath (Saturday night).  Others (myself included) argue that Yeshua was crucified on a Thursday, and resurrected the morning after the Sabbath (Sunday morning).

But no matter how you slice it you have here either back to back Sabbaths (Friday being the first day of Unleavened Bread and thus an annual Sabbath)  or two Sabbaths with a non-sabbath in between (Thursday being the first day of Unleavened Bread and thus an annual Sabbath).  Neither of these possibilities is possible with a Lunar Sabbath System. With a Lunar Sabbath system, if Yeshua was crucified on the eve of the the sabbath [i.e. the first day of Unleavened Bread- an annual Sabbath] and resurrected on the morning after the Sabbath [since following the Lunar Sabbath System those are the same day] he would have only been in the grave for one day, not three.

Which Sabbath was the Firstfruits Offering?

The well known debate between Pharisees and Sadducees over which day was the first fruits  offering (As recorded in b.Men. 65a-66a) also disproves the Lunar Sabbath System .  It is impossible to debate whether firstfruits is the day after the weekly Sabbath of the day after the annual sabbath if those are the same day.  The Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed on that point, and since there were no Sadducees after the first century, during the first century the Jews of Yeshua's day definitely recognized these as different days, and therefore could not have been keeping the Lunar Sabbath system.



The Reward Offer

Lunar Sabbath proponent Arnold Bowen has for many years offered "a $10,000 reward to anyone who can pinpoint a weekly Sabbath on any other day than by the moon.”  Specifically “on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th."

On August 16th, 2012 I laid claim to this reward when I was able to pinpoint the 14th of Nisan (Abib) in 30 BCE (Saturday, March 28th, 30 BC) as a Sabbath.

Hillel the Great became Nasi if the Sanhedrin one hundred years before the destruction of the Temple (b.Shabbat 15a).  The Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, so this means Hillel became Nasi in 30 BCE.

Hillel’s ascension to the office of Nasi took place in a year which the 14th of Nisan (Passover) occurred on a Sabbath.  This situation did in fact occur in 30 BCE.  At the time there was a controversy as to whether the Passover lamb should be slaughtered on the Sabbath or not. Thereupon Hillel proved by argument and tradition that it was permissible, upon which the Bene Bathyra (Sons of Bathyra), the then heads of the Jews of Judea, voluntarily resigned their leadership in his favor.  The account appears in the Talmud in tractate Pessachim on page 66a.  The discussion begins with a section of Mishnah (Pessachim 6:1-2) which states that many Passover duties override the Sabbath.  The Gemara then recounts the story of the problem that Hillel resolved which led to his being made Nasi (president of the Sanhedrin):

THESE THINGS IN [CONNECTION WITH] THE PASSOVER OFFERING OVERRIDE THE SABBATH: ITS SHECHITAH AND THE SPRINKLING OF ITS BLOOD AND THE CLEANSING OF ITS BOWELS AND THE BURNING OF ITS FAT. BUT ITS ROASTING AND THE WASHING OF ITS BOWELS DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. ITS CARRYING AND BRINGING IT FROM WITHOUT THE TEHUM AND THE CUTTING OFF OF ITS WART DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. R. ELIEZER SAID: THEY DO OVERRIDE [THE SABBATH]. SAID R. ELIEZER, DOES IT NOT FOLLOW A FORTIORI: IF SHECHITAH, WHICH IS [USUALLY FORBIDDEN] AS A LABOUR, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH, SHALL NOT THESE, WHICH ARE [ONLY FORBIDDEN] AS A SHEBUTH, OVERRIDE THE SABBATH? R. JOSHUA ANSWERED HIM, LET FESTIVAL[S] REBUT IT, WHEREIN THEY PERMITTED LABOUR AND FORBADE A SHEBUTH. SAID R. ELIEZER TO HIM, WHAT IS THIS, JOSHUA, WHAT PROOF IS A VOLUNTARY ACT IN RESPECT OF A PRECEPT! R. AKIBA ANSWERED AND SAID, LET HAZA'AH PROVE IT, WHICH IS [PERFORMED] BECAUSE IT IS A PRECEPT AND IS [NORMALLY FORBIDDEN ONLY] AS A SHEBUTH, YET IT DOES NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH; SO YOU TOO, DO NOT WONDER AT THESE, THAT THOUGH THEY ARE [REQUIRED] ON ACCOUNT OF THE PRECEPT AND ARE [ONLY FORBIDDEN] AS A SHEBUTH, YET THEY DO NOT OVERRIDE THE SABBATH. SAID R. ELIEZER TO HIM, BUT IN RESPECT OF THAT [ITSELF] I ARGUE: IF SHECHITAH, WHICH IS A LABOUR, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH, IS IT NOT LOGICAL THAT HAZA'AH, WHICH IS [ONLY] A SHEBUTH, OVERRIDES THE SABBATH! (m.Pessachim 6:1-2)

GEMARA. Our Rabbis taught: This halachah was hidden from [i.e., forgotten by] the Bene Bathyra. On one occasion the fourteenth [of Nisan] fell on the Sabbath, [and] they forgot and Passover, R. Akiba holds that the haza'ah must not be performed, though the man is thereby prevented from joining in the Passover sacrifice. did not know whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not. Said they, ‘Is there any man who knows whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not?’ They were told, ‘There is a certain man who has come up from  Babylonia, Hillel the Babylonian by name, who served the two greatest men of the time, and he knows whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not [Thereupon] they summoned him [and] said to him, ‘Do you know whether the Passover overrides the Sabbath or not?’ ‘Have we then [only] one Passover during the year which overrides the Sabbath?’ replied he to them, ‘Surely we have many more than two hundred Passovers during the year which override the Sabbath! Said they to him, ‘How do you know it?’ He answered them, ‘In its appointed time’ is stated in connection with the Passover, and ‘In its appointed time’ is stated in connection with the tamid; just as ‘Its appointed time’ which is said in connection with the tamid overrides the Sabbath, so ‘Its appointed time’ which is said in connection with the Passover overrides the Sabbath. Moreover, it follows a minori, if the tamid, [the omission of] which is not punished by kareth, overrides the Sabbath, then the Passover,[neglect of] which is punished by kareth, is it not logical that it overrides the Sabbath! They immediately set him at their head and appointed him Nasi [Patriarch] over them, and he was sitting and lecturing the whole day on the laws of Passover. He began rebuking them with words. Said he to them, ‘What caused it for you that I should come up from Babylonia to be a Nasi over you? It was your indolence, because you did not serve the two greatest men of the time, Shemaiah and Abtalyon.’ Said they to him, ‘Master, what if a man forgot and did not bring a knife on the eve of the Sabbath?’ ‘I have heard this law,’ he answered, ‘but have forgotten it. But leave it to Israel: if they are not prophets, yet they are the children of prophets!’ On the morrow, he whose Passover was a lamb stuck it [the knife] in its wool; he whose Passover was a goat stuck it between its horns. He saw the incident and recollected the halachah and said, ‘Thus have I received the tradition from the mouth[s] of Shemaiah and Abtalyon.’
(b.Pesachim 66a)

Now this section of Mishnah and Talmud makes it clear that the 14th of Nisan (Passover) could occur on a Sabbath, and in fact did occur on the Sabbath as early as the days of Hillel the Great, who was elderly in the days of Yeshua's youth.

Now as I have said before, Yeshua and the Pharisees clearly agreed as to what day the Sabbath was.  They disagreed, at times, over what activities were permitted on the Sabbath, but they never disagreed over what day the Sabbath was.  So if we can demonstrate that the first century Phraisees kept the weekly "Saturday" Sabbath, we would also be demonstrating that Yeshua kept the weekly "Saturday" Sabbath. And if we could show that the first century Pharisees did not keep a so-called floating lunar Sabbath, we would be showing also that Yeshua did not keep such a lunar Sabbath, and thus that such a lunar Sabbath was not valid.

Now this section of Mishnah and Talmud reveal that on occasion the 14th of Nisan could and did happen to fall on the Sabbath as reckoned by the first century Pharisees, and therefore by Yeshua as well.  This is impossible with the so-called Lunar Sabbath System, in which the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of a Lunar Month were Sabbaths and the 14th could NEVER be a Sabbath.

I have made an official claim with Arnold Bowen for the $10,000 reward offered to anyone "who can pinpoint a weekly Sabbath on any other day than by the moon... on either the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th day of the Moon.".  I can now pinpoint 14th of Nisan in 30 BCE as meeting this criteria.  So far he has failed to make good on his reward offer. I will keep you all updated.

Well when I began writing this blog, it was my intent to write an exhaustive treatment of the Lunar Sabbath doctrine and its errors.  However the evidence against the Lunar Sabbath is so overwhelming, it has become clear to me that if I ever write an exhaustive treatment, it will fill a book, not just a blog.  None-the-less I believe enough information has been documented in this short treatment to completely disprove the Lunar Sabbath theory.

 

HaSatan wishes "to steal and to kill and to destroy" (Jn. 10:10) and he knows the time is short and has stepped up his war with those who proclaim both Torah Observance and Faith in Messiah (the two pillars of Nazarene Judaism) (Rev. 12:12, 17; 13:7). But no weapon forged against us will prosper (Is. 54:17).


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Replies to This Discussion

You are quite welcome Parthenia, my pleasure.

Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

Agreed.  Thank you for speaking more clearly.  Obviously, you too spend time with Yahweh and his doctrine.

shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

Agreed Parthenia.  All Israel shall be saved, referring to a spiritual Israel. They receive salvation by going through a spiritual judgment; through a spiritual purification process (encoded in the 49th chapter of Genesis). Those that complete this process (by traveling from Reu to Ben; from Reuben to Benjamin) are of the spiritual tribe of Benjamin, meaning, " a son of the right hand," the right hand symbolizing power, becoming a son of the power of God. These become pure spirit in essence, born of the spirit upon their physical death. 

I see the fruit, not as words that proceed from our lips, but as the truth that is born of that spiritual purified (virgin) womb called the heart, as it is written" " This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me."  Matthew 15:8

Godspeed.  
 
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

Interesting statements Sandra; however, it is not "just Benjamin" who enters at the narrow gate.  The scripture says "all Israel will be saved meaning most specifically, those Whom Yahweh has chosen before the foundation of the world.  As the Prophet says, though Israel will be as the sands of the sea, only a "remanant will be saved."

 

The way is indeed narrow and difficult as Yahshua said.  Many people want to interprete the scriptures according to their own understanding.  Except Yahweh builds the house, they labor in vain who build it.  It is He Himself who is our teacher even as He said through the Prophets.....all shall be taught by  Yahweh from the least to the greatest.  That is something most people don't understand and look instead to "man" and his man-made doctrines.  Yahweh states emphatically that the things that the fathers did were not of Him.  He did not speak to them about sacrifices and offerings as He states in Jeremiah and Isaiah.... He told them to obey His voice and Keep His Commandments.  Our Fathers added to the word and went backwards and not forward as many are doing today. 

 

You are right, the sacrifices that Yahweh desires are the fruit of our lips giving thanks and praise unto Him.  Sadly, most do not understand this and are still worshiping according to the ways beyond the Euphrates, just as our Fathers did while in Egypt, and upon entering the land. .

 

shalom

The children of Israel had already broken all of the commandments in spirit (spiritually) by resisting Moses in the wilderness (Moses representing the spirit of God). They broke the letter (word) of the Law when they built the gold calf, Aaron (who spoke for Moses) representing the word of God, which is why Aaron is associated with the building of the calf. And YES, ABSOLUTELY, when one knows the one true Elohim (which when divided into three sections [EL-OH-IM] reveals the true image of God) and then rejects that way, as the children of Israel (chosen out of all the nations to teach us about ourselves) rejected the voice of Moses (spoken through Aaron) one is worshipping a false image. We have all broken the first commandment (spiritually) many times. Yeshua illustrated this for us when he entered the temple (symbolizing the heart) overturning the tables (symbolizing what the bible calls "the fleshy tables of the heart") upon which they had set up many images (symbolizing our many false beliefs). The only thing that can overturn these false images or beliefs (other gods) is Truth, which Yeshua embodied, being the physical manifestation of God's word. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, you are right on in thinking that the Torah has two sides, the letter/carnal (physical keeping) side, and the Spiritual side.  Although I not certain that when the carnal (physical Israelites) made and worshiped a carnal (physical gold calf), that was a breaking of the first command Spiritually.  Wouldn't a better explanation of breaking the 1st commandment "Spiritually," be when one has fully seen and knows the One True Elohim, and then rejects Him and worships Satan and his ways instead?  I'm not sure the children of Israel were at that level of understanding yet to be able to make that choice.

Also, wasn't the Torah added to INCREASE the transgression of Adam?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.


Sandra L. Butler said:

There is the spiriutal law and there is the carnal law. The Torah contains both!  

Moses illustrated the breaking of the spiritual law as he came down off the mount. When the children of Israel broke the first of these spiritual laws by worshiping the gold calf (You are not to have any other gods before my presence, You are not to make yourself a carved-image of any figure that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth beneath, that is in the waters beneath the earth). they were given the carnal law. The carnal law was added because of transgression of God's spiritual law. The carnal law was to pass at the passing of Moses, and again at the coming of Yeshua.  

 

What is a god spiritually? How do we bow down to them spiritually?

How do we take the name of YHWH for emptiness?

How do we hallow the Sabbath spiritually?

How do we honor our father and mother spiritually?  Who is our spiritual father?  and what is our spiritual mother? In honoring them spiritually we prolong our physical life. The patriarchs lived before the carnal law, obeying God's spiritual law,which prolonged their physical life. Abraham was 175 when he died, Isaac 180, Jacob 147, and Joseph 110. 

How do we murder spiritually?

How do we commit spiritual adultery? Matthew 15:19

How do we steal spiritually? Matthew 15:19; Malachi 3:8

How do we bear false witness spiritually?

How do we covet spiritually?

The physical reveals the spiritual. Just because we keep these commanments in the physical sense, doesn't mean we are keeping them in the spiritual sense. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 
James Trimm said:

The Torah is the "Law" they are not two different things.

Shalom Sandra, good answer for the most part, I can see you have put much time and effort into what you believe.  But you didn't address about WHY the Torah was given though?  Was it given because the Israelites had broken the commands Spiritually, or was it given for the reason Paul speaks of:

Rom 5:20
(20)  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul was consistent in his teaching.  He also says almost the same thing to the Galatians, and don't be confused with the word "because." The translators translated the Greek word "charin" (G5484) with the English word "because."  Paul uses "charin," which comes from the Greek word (G5485) "charis," which means gift, because he wanted to show that the Torah was added to "give" or "for the purpose" of transgression.  Look at it from the stand point that Paul is saying the Torah was added for the purpose of giving transgression.  That was the purpose, cause, or reason that Elohim gave the Torah, to increase (abound) or give (charin) transgression.

Gal 3:19
(19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because (G5484-charin) of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You see, Paul saw that Yeshua was The Seed of Abraham (a singular Seed, not many v16), and to distinguish Yeshua as THAT True Seed, the Torah was added to give transgression.  Abraham did EVERYTHING that Elohim commanded him (Gen 26:5), and to be the True Seed of Abraham, the Torah would weed out those who did not have the same heart and spirit that Abraham had, and in the process, transgression would be increased.  Most feel that the Torah was added because transgression had increased, but that is just not true, the Torah was added to increase transgression, plain and simple.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Sandra L. Butler said:

The children of Israel had already broken all of the commandments in spirit (spiritually) by resisting Moses in the wilderness (Moses representing the spirit of God). They broke the letter (word) of the Law when they built the gold calf, Aaron (who spoke for Moses) representing the word of God, which is why Aaron is associated with the building of the calf. And YES, ABSOLUTELY, when one knows the one true Elohim (which when divided into three sections [EL-OH-IM] reveals the true image of God) and then rejects that way, as the children of Israel (chosen out of all the nations to teach us about ourselves) rejected the voice of Moses (spoken through Aaron) one is worshipping a false image. We have all broken the first commandment (spiritually) many times. Yeshua illustrated this for us when he entered the temple (symbolizing the heart) overturning the tables (symbolizing what the bible calls "the fleshy tables of the heart") upon which they had set up many images (symbolizing our many false beliefs). The only thing that can overturn these false images or beliefs (other gods) is Truth, which Yeshua embodied, being the physical manifestation of God's word. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, you are right on in thinking that the Torah has two sides, the letter/carnal (physical keeping) side, and the Spiritual side.  Although I not certain that when the carnal (physical Israelites) made and worshiped a carnal (physical gold calf), that was a breaking of the first command Spiritually.  Wouldn't a better explanation of breaking the 1st commandment "Spiritually," be when one has fully seen and knows the One True Elohim, and then rejects Him and worships Satan and his ways instead?  I'm not sure the children of Israel were at that level of understanding yet to be able to make that choice.

Also, wasn't the Torah added to INCREASE the transgression of Adam?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.


Sandra L. Butler said:

There is the spiriutal law and there is the carnal law. The Torah contains both!  

Moses illustrated the breaking of the spiritual law as he came down off the mount. When the children of Israel broke the first of these spiritual laws by worshiping the gold calf (You are not to have any other gods before my presence, You are not to make yourself a carved-image of any figure that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth beneath, that is in the waters beneath the earth). they were given the carnal law. The carnal law was added because of transgression of God's spiritual law. The carnal law was to pass at the passing of Moses, and again at the coming of Yeshua.  

 

What is a god spiritually? How do we bow down to them spiritually?

How do we take the name of YHWH for emptiness?

How do we hallow the Sabbath spiritually?

How do we honor our father and mother spiritually?  Who is our spiritual father?  and what is our spiritual mother? In honoring them spiritually we prolong our physical life. The patriarchs lived before the carnal law, obeying God's spiritual law,which prolonged their physical life. Abraham was 175 when he died, Isaac 180, Jacob 147, and Joseph 110. 

How do we murder spiritually?

How do we commit spiritual adultery? Matthew 15:19

How do we steal spiritually? Matthew 15:19; Malachi 3:8

How do we bear false witness spiritually?

How do we covet spiritually?

The physical reveals the spiritual. Just because we keep these commanments in the physical sense, doesn't mean we are keeping them in the spiritual sense. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 
James Trimm said:

The Torah is the "Law" they are not two different things.

If you definition of Torah is the first 5 books then the answer is both. The book of Genesis starts by providing us with the spiritual process through which our transgression (a violation of God's spiritual law); sin, can be removed. The patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Father, Son, Holy Spirit provide a spiritual understanding of God's image... "let us make man in our image," so that we may be spiritually made or formed in the image of God. Mankind is far removed from this spiritual image, which is why the world is in the state it is in! Joseph (not the man, but the meaning) brings us back into the true linage (see Matthew 1:2,16). Exodus provides more details as to how we leave the lineage that has led us into bondage (into addiction) and be grafted into the lineage that leads to freedom, but the children of Israel fought against this transformation, never ascending the mount, never entering the promise land, never receiving the gift of the holy sSPIRIT... the spiritual seed of God... Abraham's seed. Had they tapped into the power of the spiritual ark of covenant there would have been no need for the rest of the Torah... THE CARNAL LAW!  Righteousness would have been a law unto itself, as it was for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Now they would have to do physically what they refused to do spiritually. The Torah begins with the SPIRIT and ends with the LAW.  The book of Joshua gives an account of the spiritual works that constitute the SPIRIT of the TORAH, thereby fulfilling the LAW of the TORAH. Joshua was full of the SPIRIT of wisdom, wisdom being the application (living) of the SPIRITUAL TRUTH contained in the TORAH. The Bible shows us two ways, two covenants: Hagar and Sarah, bondage and freedom, law and spirit. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, good answer for the most part, I can see you have put much time and effort into what you believe.  But you didn't address about WHY the Torah was given though?  Was it given because the Israelites had broken the commands Spiritually, or was it given for the reason Paul speaks of:

Rom 5:20
(20)  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul was consistent in his teaching.  He also says almost the same thing to the Galatians, and don't be confused with the word "because." The translators translated the Greek word "charin" (G5484) with the English word "because."  Paul uses "charin," which comes from the Greek word (G5485) "charis," which means gift, because he wanted to show that the Torah was added to "give" or "for the purpose" of transgression.  Look at it from the stand point that Paul is saying the Torah was added for the purpose of giving transgression.  That was the purpose, cause, or reason that Elohim gave the Torah, to increase (abound) or give (charin) transgression.

Gal 3:19
(19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because (G5484-charin) of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You see, Paul saw that Yeshua was The Seed of Abraham (a singular Seed, not many v16), and to distinguish Yeshua as THAT True Seed, the Torah was added to give transgression.  Abraham did EVERYTHING that Elohim commanded him (Gen 26:5), and to be the True Seed of Abraham, the Torah would weed out those who did not have the same heart and spirit that Abraham had, and in the process, transgression would be increased.  Most feel that the Torah was added because transgression had increased, but that is just not true, the Torah was added to increase transgression, plain and simple.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Sandra L. Butler said:

The children of Israel had already broken all of the commandments in spirit (spiritually) by resisting Moses in the wilderness (Moses representing the spirit of God). They broke the letter (word) of the Law when they built the gold calf, Aaron (who spoke for Moses) representing the word of God, which is why Aaron is associated with the building of the calf. And YES, ABSOLUTELY, when one knows the one true Elohim (which when divided into three sections [EL-OH-IM] reveals the true image of God) and then rejects that way, as the children of Israel (chosen out of all the nations to teach us about ourselves) rejected the voice of Moses (spoken through Aaron) one is worshipping a false image. We have all broken the first commandment (spiritually) many times. Yeshua illustrated this for us when he entered the temple (symbolizing the heart) overturning the tables (symbolizing what the bible calls "the fleshy tables of the heart") upon which they had set up many images (symbolizing our many false beliefs). The only thing that can overturn these false images or beliefs (other gods) is Truth, which Yeshua embodied, being the physical manifestation of God's word. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, you are right on in thinking that the Torah has two sides, the letter/carnal (physical keeping) side, and the Spiritual side.  Although I not certain that when the carnal (physical Israelites) made and worshiped a carnal (physical gold calf), that was a breaking of the first command Spiritually.  Wouldn't a better explanation of breaking the 1st commandment "Spiritually," be when one has fully seen and knows the One True Elohim, and then rejects Him and worships Satan and his ways instead?  I'm not sure the children of Israel were at that level of understanding yet to be able to make that choice.

Also, wasn't the Torah added to INCREASE the transgression of Adam?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.


Sandra L. Butler said:

There is the spiriutal law and there is the carnal law. The Torah contains both!  

Moses illustrated the breaking of the spiritual law as he came down off the mount. When the children of Israel broke the first of these spiritual laws by worshiping the gold calf (You are not to have any other gods before my presence, You are not to make yourself a carved-image of any figure that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth beneath, that is in the waters beneath the earth). they were given the carnal law. The carnal law was added because of transgression of God's spiritual law. The carnal law was to pass at the passing of Moses, and again at the coming of Yeshua.  

 

What is a god spiritually? How do we bow down to them spiritually?

How do we take the name of YHWH for emptiness?

How do we hallow the Sabbath spiritually?

How do we honor our father and mother spiritually?  Who is our spiritual father?  and what is our spiritual mother? In honoring them spiritually we prolong our physical life. The patriarchs lived before the carnal law, obeying God's spiritual law,which prolonged their physical life. Abraham was 175 when he died, Isaac 180, Jacob 147, and Joseph 110. 

How do we murder spiritually?

How do we commit spiritual adultery? Matthew 15:19

How do we steal spiritually? Matthew 15:19; Malachi 3:8

How do we bear false witness spiritually?

How do we covet spiritually?

The physical reveals the spiritual. Just because we keep these commanments in the physical sense, doesn't mean we are keeping them in the spiritual sense. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 
James Trimm said:

The Torah is the "Law" they are not two different things.

Stop it.  Saturday is no more the so called "true day" than Sunday.  You are not speaking from Wisdom.  Some want "to believe that Yahudah got it right when in fact Isaiah Chapter one speaks otherwise.  You must remember what Paul was referring to when he said, May Yahweh establish you in the "good words of the Ketuvah.".  Most of the confusion going on today was done by Ezra and his redaction of scriptures.  Even the Jewish calendar has been changed by Yahudah trying to establish "another" as the Moshiach.  When he converted to Islam under threat of death, they looked foolish; and such things has happened repeatedly.

You are more than welcome to call Chabad.  They will tell you these things.  The Shabbat was changed just before the destruction of the second temple.  Such changes were already occurring during the time of Yahshuah.

Please, learn your history and pick up a Chamesh and read it.

shalom

The law was not only broken "spiritually" it was broken "physically through outward manifestations of acts contrary to Yahweh."  Let's not over due the word "spiritually."  People are not in hell because they "spiritually broke the law; just as we will not be judged because we "spiritually" did something.  We will be judged for our works, our outward manifestations. Alright.

Secondly, with respect to terminology used in the scriptures, most people who speak the English language just do not get it. I teach an English Conversation class at my local library to people from different countries and cultures and know what, they still use most of the terminology of scripture.  For example, taking a god, is the same as taking a "Husband." Wherefore Yahweh declares through the Prophets that He was a Husband to Yisrael.  The word Husband is not considered as defined by the English language....it is more true to its original context: Marrying a god.   (Just a bit of trivia.)

We have in the law what is called the "Plain Meaning Rule" where we look at the words of contract for their meaning based on plain common sense.  The Bible is an excellent example of this.  For example in Hosea where Yahweh says, take words of Torah and return to Him and He will pardon us.....That is a unilateral contract.  A unilateral contract is one where the Offeror (Yahweh_, makes a promise to do something (Pardon us) in exchange for a performance by the Offeree (Yisrael).  Our taking words of Torah confessing our sins and those of our Fathers equals Consideration and performance. 

An excellent example of what Yahweh wants from Yisrael is recorded in Daniel where Daniel makes confession of his sins and the sins of the fathers that resulted in the exile to Babylon.  From the first day that he set his heart to obey Yahweh, his Prayers were heard.  Yahweh hasn't changed his requirements for the unilateral contract.  Remember through Micah, He states that HE CHANGES NOT.

In short, there is simplicity in Yahweh that even a child can understand when he/she is taught by someone who uses words that are simple and easy to understand. 

Yet, because both sides uses the same "rule book", Satan uses the scriptures too, these things are coded and Yahweh must open your understanding. (Just a bit of info from someone engaged on the front line of spiritual battle.  It isn't like the "church" or some "messianic synagogues" teach; the battles are real and to the death.  It shouldn't be taken lightly like a hangnail.

Shalom

James & Sandra:  You are both saying the same things; however, on different levels.  For example in Yeshayahu (Isaiah_ it is written, that Yahweh's House shall be a House of Prayer for all people.  Those who don't understand what Yahweh is saying think that he means "the temple to be built on the temple mount."  While those who do understand what Yahweh is saying, understand that we are to be a people of prayer for "we are his temple..the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him, in other words, to allow Yahweh into our Hearts....He tells us through the Prophets that He does not inhabit temples of stone  (stoney hearts and buildings made by man)....as He Himself has made the temple that he desire to indwell:  Us."

Remember, Yahweh makes those who have been weaned from the "Milk" to understand Doctrine, and it is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, even as He says through the Prophets.  As Yahweh teaches you, you began to understand on a level that is very simplistic; however, so profound until it stuns the senses of those who are not being taught by Him and stumbling at the word.

Another example, In Corinthians, Paul tells Yisrael that we have no such custom of covering our heads; and that the woman's hair is given to her for a covering.  Many read this and become extremely confused; thinking that their physical dress somehow validates their spirituality and can't see that they are being pompous, prideful and stumbling at the word.

The two of you are at different stages in your understanding.  One sitting at the feet of the master is obvious here.

Shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

I agree James. The Torah is of the Spirit, and the process by which one becomes spirit in essence is contained within the first book of the Torah; in the 1st and 49th chapters of Genesis, before the Law, before the Commandments, before the statutes and ordinances. It is through this process that the flesh (formed inside of our physical flesh) is removed through a spiritual circumcision, by which we become a spiritual Jew, and as it is written: "salvation is of the Jews," for it is the Jews (the children of Israel) that were given this ancient instruction. And it's no coincidence that they add up to 50 (1 + 49 = 50, the number of chapters in Genesis) for it is through the application of the ancient instruction contained therein that we celebrate our ONE-TIME spiritual jubilee, the physical revealing the spiritual.  

The most profound truth that the "spirit of truth" leads us into is the truth about ourselves, an understanding of ourselves.

I agree with everything that you are saying, for the Torah truly is of the Spirit, it's word, Truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We are just seeing it from different perspectives... " In my Father's house are many mansions," the word "mansions" meaning "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy)," revealing their spiritual element. I simply have a different relation-ship with the Torah than you do.


 
James Trimm said:

According to the Scriptures, those that observe the Torah are being led of the Spirit:

14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to
sin.
(Rom. 7:14 HRV)

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will
take away, the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you, a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you
shall keep My ordinances, and do them.
(Ezek. 36:27 HRV)

But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth,...
(Jn. 16:13 HRV)

And what is the Scriptural definition of truth?  It is given in Psalms:

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.
143 Trouble and anguish have overtaken me, yet Your commandments are my delight.
144 Your testimonies are righteous forever: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145 I have called with my whole heart: answer me, O YHWH; I will keep Your statutes.
146 I have called You: save me, and I will observe Your testimonies.
147 I rose early at dawn, and cried: I hoped in Your word.
148 My eyes forestalled the night-watches, that I might meditate in Your word.
149 Hear my voice according unto Your lovingkindness: quicken me, O YHWH, as You
are wont.
150 They draw near that follow after wickedness: they are far from Your Torah.
151 You are near, O YHWH, and all Your commandments are truth.
152 Of old have I known from Your testimonies, that You have founded them forever.
(Ps. 119:142-152 HRV)

this dialogue is an excellent example of why we of Yahudah do not mix milk with meat.  It has nothing to do with drinking a glass of milk with a cheeseburger or hamburger.

It is as the Apostle Paul said, with the spirtually mature, Sandra, you can speak as you speak; however, sometimes we need to cut up the meat into small pieces so that the babies can eat and gain nourishment.  Yahweh give you wisdom in what I say.


I use to do as you are doing until Yahweh gave me a "Bread Machine and a "Food Processor."  Yaweh give you understanding of what I have just said.

Shalom
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

James & Sandra:  You are both saying the same things; however, on different levels.  For example in Yeshayahu (Isaiah_ it is written, that Yahweh's House shall be a House of Prayer for all people.  Those who don't understand what Yahweh is saying think that he means "the temple to be built on the temple mount."  While those who do understand what Yahweh is saying, understand that we are to be a people of prayer for "we are his temple..the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him, in other words, to allow Yahweh into our Hearts....He tells us through the Prophets that He does not inhabit temples of stone  (stoney hearts and buildings made by man)....as He Himself has made the temple that he desire to indwell:  Us."

Remember, Yahweh makes those who have been weaned from the "Milk" to understand Doctrine, and it is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, even as He says through the Prophets.  As Yahweh teaches you, you began to understand on a level that is very simplistic; however, so profound until it stuns the senses of those who are not being taught by Him and stumbling at the word.

Another example, In Corinthians, Paul tells Yisrael that we have no such custom of covering our heads; and that the woman's hair is given to her for a covering.  Many read this and become extremely confused; thinking that their physical dress somehow validates their spirituality and can't see that they are being pompous, prideful and stumbling at the word.

The two of you are at different stages in your understanding.  One sitting at the feet of the master is obvious here.

Shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

I agree James. The Torah is of the Spirit, and the process by which one becomes spirit in essence is contained within the first book of the Torah; in the 1st and 49th chapters of Genesis, before the Law, before the Commandments, before the statutes and ordinances. It is through this process that the flesh (formed inside of our physical flesh) is removed through a spiritual circumcision, by which we become a spiritual Jew, and as it is written: "salvation is of the Jews," for it is the Jews (the children of Israel) that were given this ancient instruction. And it's no coincidence that they add up to 50 (1 + 49 = 50, the number of chapters in Genesis) for it is through the application of the ancient instruction contained therein that we celebrate our ONE-TIME spiritual jubilee, the physical revealing the spiritual.  

The most profound truth that the "spirit of truth" leads us into is the truth about ourselves, an understanding of ourselves.

I agree with everything that you are saying, for the Torah truly is of the Spirit, it's word, Truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We are just seeing it from different perspectives... " In my Father's house are many mansions," the word "mansions" meaning "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy)," revealing their spiritual element. I simply have a different relation-ship with the Torah than you do.


 
James Trimm said:

According to the Scriptures, those that observe the Torah are being led of the Spirit:

14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to
sin.
(Rom. 7:14 HRV)

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will
take away, the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you, a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you
shall keep My ordinances, and do them.
(Ezek. 36:27 HRV)

But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth,...
(Jn. 16:13 HRV)

And what is the Scriptural definition of truth?  It is given in Psalms:

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.
143 Trouble and anguish have overtaken me, yet Your commandments are my delight.
144 Your testimonies are righteous forever: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145 I have called with my whole heart: answer me, O YHWH; I will keep Your statutes.
146 I have called You: save me, and I will observe Your testimonies.
147 I rose early at dawn, and cried: I hoped in Your word.
148 My eyes forestalled the night-watches, that I might meditate in Your word.
149 Hear my voice according unto Your lovingkindness: quicken me, O YHWH, as You
are wont.
150 They draw near that follow after wickedness: they are far from Your Torah.
151 You are near, O YHWH, and all Your commandments are truth.
152 Of old have I known from Your testimonies, that You have founded them forever.
(Ps. 119:142-152 HRV)

Shalom Sandra, after reading your last post, I question your understanding of the Spiritual.  And I say that with all sincerity as I think you are being led to grasp the Spiritual.  What is your understanding of how the "righteousness of Elohim WITHOUT the Law," is accomplished (Rom 3:21)?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Sandra L. Butler said:

If you definition of Torah is the first 5 books then the answer is both. The book of Genesis starts by providing us with the spiritual process through which our transgression (a violation of God's spiritual law); sin, can be removed. The patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Father, Son, Holy Spirit provide a spiritual understanding of God's image... "let us make man in our image," so that we may be spiritually made or formed in the image of God. Mankind is far removed from this spiritual image, which is why the world is in the state it is in! Joseph (not the man, but the meaning) brings us back into the true linage (see Matthew 1:2,16). Exodus provides more details as to how we leave the lineage that has led us into bondage (into addiction) and be grafted into the lineage that leads to freedom, but the children of Israel fought against this transformation, never ascending the mount, never entering the promise land, never receiving the gift of the holy sSPIRIT... the spiritual seed of God... Abraham's seed. Had they tapped into the power of the spiritual ark of covenant there would have been no need for the rest of the Torah... THE CARNAL LAW!  Righteousness would have been a law unto itself, as it was for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Now they would have to do physically what they refused to do spiritually. The Torah begins with the SPIRIT and ends with the LAW.  The book of Joshua gives an account of the spiritual works that constitute the SPIRIT of the TORAH, thereby fulfilling the LAW of the TORAH. Joshua was full of the SPIRIT of wisdom, wisdom being the application (living) of the SPIRITUAL TRUTH contained in the TORAH. The Bible shows us two ways, two covenants: Hagar and Sarah, bondage and freedom, law and spirit. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, good answer for the most part, I can see you have put much time and effort into what you believe.  But you didn't address about WHY the Torah was given though?  Was it given because the Israelites had broken the commands Spiritually, or was it given for the reason Paul speaks of:

Rom 5:20
(20)  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul was consistent in his teaching.  He also says almost the same thing to the Galatians, and don't be confused with the word "because." The translators translated the Greek word "charin" (G5484) with the English word "because."  Paul uses "charin," which comes from the Greek word (G5485) "charis," which means gift, because he wanted to show that the Torah was added to "give" or "for the purpose" of transgression.  Look at it from the stand point that Paul is saying the Torah was added for the purpose of giving transgression.  That was the purpose, cause, or reason that Elohim gave the Torah, to increase (abound) or give (charin) transgression.

Gal 3:19
(19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because (G5484-charin) of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You see, Paul saw that Yeshua was The Seed of Abraham (a singular Seed, not many v16), and to distinguish Yeshua as THAT True Seed, the Torah was added to give transgression.  Abraham did EVERYTHING that Elohim commanded him (Gen 26:5), and to be the True Seed of Abraham, the Torah would weed out those who did not have the same heart and spirit that Abraham had, and in the process, transgression would be increased.  Most feel that the Torah was added because transgression had increased, but that is just not true, the Torah was added to increase transgression, plain and simple.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Sandra L. Butler said:

The children of Israel had already broken all of the commandments in spirit (spiritually) by resisting Moses in the wilderness (Moses representing the spirit of God). They broke the letter (word) of the Law when they built the gold calf, Aaron (who spoke for Moses) representing the word of God, which is why Aaron is associated with the building of the calf. And YES, ABSOLUTELY, when one knows the one true Elohim (which when divided into three sections [EL-OH-IM] reveals the true image of God) and then rejects that way, as the children of Israel (chosen out of all the nations to teach us about ourselves) rejected the voice of Moses (spoken through Aaron) one is worshipping a false image. We have all broken the first commandment (spiritually) many times. Yeshua illustrated this for us when he entered the temple (symbolizing the heart) overturning the tables (symbolizing what the bible calls "the fleshy tables of the heart") upon which they had set up many images (symbolizing our many false beliefs). The only thing that can overturn these false images or beliefs (other gods) is Truth, which Yeshua embodied, being the physical manifestation of God's word. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, you are right on in thinking that the Torah has two sides, the letter/carnal (physical keeping) side, and the Spiritual side.  Although I not certain that when the carnal (physical Israelites) made and worshiped a carnal (physical gold calf), that was a breaking of the first command Spiritually.  Wouldn't a better explanation of breaking the 1st commandment "Spiritually," be when one has fully seen and knows the One True Elohim, and then rejects Him and worships Satan and his ways instead?  I'm not sure the children of Israel were at that level of understanding yet to be able to make that choice.

Also, wasn't the Torah added to INCREASE the transgression of Adam?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.


Sandra L. Butler said:

There is the spiriutal law and there is the carnal law. The Torah contains both!  

Moses illustrated the breaking of the spiritual law as he came down off the mount. When the children of Israel broke the first of these spiritual laws by worshiping the gold calf (You are not to have any other gods before my presence, You are not to make yourself a carved-image of any figure that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth beneath, that is in the waters beneath the earth). they were given the carnal law. The carnal law was added because of transgression of God's spiritual law. The carnal law was to pass at the passing of Moses, and again at the coming of Yeshua.  

 

What is a god spiritually? How do we bow down to them spiritually?

How do we take the name of YHWH for emptiness?

How do we hallow the Sabbath spiritually?

How do we honor our father and mother spiritually?  Who is our spiritual father?  and what is our spiritual mother? In honoring them spiritually we prolong our physical life. The patriarchs lived before the carnal law, obeying God's spiritual law,which prolonged their physical life. Abraham was 175 when he died, Isaac 180, Jacob 147, and Joseph 110. 

How do we murder spiritually?

How do we commit spiritual adultery? Matthew 15:19

How do we steal spiritually? Matthew 15:19; Malachi 3:8

How do we bear false witness spiritually?

How do we covet spiritually?

The physical reveals the spiritual. Just because we keep these commanments in the physical sense, doesn't mean we are keeping them in the spiritual sense. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 
James Trimm said:

The Torah is the "Law" they are not two different things.

An interesting quote you have there, Yirmeyahu. If that quote is correct, we must see the change away from the Solar-Lunar Cycle Shabaths as happening a lot earlier - during the first Temple period. As the vast majority of Jews did not return to Judah after the Babylonian captivity, and I understand many scattered off to various corners of the whole globe - as another here has said, that would explain why each of those far-flung communities still kept Saturday.

What stumbles many with that proposition is the fact that YAHusho made no effort to restore the true calendar when He came. He therefore went along with the status quo, even though the days be calculated wrong. Actually, He never said that any Shabath was the Shabath, when He was here, He simply spoke supporting the principle of the Shabath, and of what was permissable to do on that day. If you think it strange that He would respect a wrong day for Shabath, and for that matter, for the annual Feasts as well, then perhaps we should consider that He never made any effort to reinstate the 7 year Shabath, or the Jubilee, either. Restore one, restore the other. Consider please, Acts 3:17-21 

"I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18. But those things which ALuehim foretold by the mouth of all His Prophets, that the Mushiac would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19. Repent therefore, and turn to ALuehim, so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YA'HWE, and that He may send YAHusho Mushiac, who was ordained for you previously, who must remain in Heaven UNTIL the TIMES of RESTORATION of ALL things, which ALuehim has spoken by the mouth of all His Holy Prophets since the world began."

That text seems to tell us to wait UNTIL the Times of Restoration WHEN YAHusho comes. It seems to me that those of us who are free to keep whichever day: - not having any employment considerations, are free to keep the Solar-Lunar Shabaths as originally desired in Gen 1:14-19, linked to Lev 23, verses 1-3 in particular (muod = appointments, in both places), but should also respect and fellowship with those who keep in good faith the Saturday as Shabath.

We should keep in mind that YA'HWE expects a man to provide for his family's necessities, as a priority to keeping Shabath. And that father did not expect IshorAL to keep Shabath UNTIL He had freed them physically, from the world's dictation. Only when He had removed them from the world, did He give them His Shabaths.

He gave His name to Mushe (Moses) as the KEY to deliverance both spiritually and physically from the world.

He gave His Shabaths as a celebration of that deliverance, once they were physically delivered. So, I believe it reasonable to suggest that we should keep what we are able to keep: - what the world actually allows us to keep in these times. And patience and tollerance are qualities we are being tested upon as much as anything. Will we allow that our brothers are equals with us, regardless of which days we are keeping according to our convictions of what Father expects of us? We are called to respect one another, and to have sufficient of YAHusho's love to understand one another, and to forgive one another. YAHusho has no room for bigotry or intolerance. Shalom! Abe



Yirmeyahu said:

There is evidence against the Lunar Sabbath from Latin writers of the 1st century BC, military types, who marveled that the Jews did not defend themselves on the day known to the Romans as Saturn- day.  Of course "Saturnday" was simply day 7 or Shabbat to the Jews.  It is telling that the Roman military writers referred to the normally reoccurring day of rest for the Jews as "saturnday" (day 7) rather than stating that there was a peculiar phenomena whereby one could conquer the Jews unopposed on days when the moon was full, or at a quarter, etc. It was known to foreign nations around Israel that they rested one in every seven days, a continuous unbroken cycle.

Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. 
For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it
As it was, they made an excavation of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall

The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. 
Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defense
, and all the wealth was plundered. 
The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away." Cassius Dio Roman History 37.16.1-4

A little background info:

In 1975, at the age of 23, I began an in-depth study of the Bible with a man that was not of any religion, having no preconceived ideas with respect to the word of God. Having very little knowledge of the Bible his mind served as a pure conduit through which the anointing (spirit of truth) could freely flow, receiving a 14 year revelation between 1960 and 1974. What he received bare little if any resemblance to mainstream religion. The study lasted 19 years, until his death in 1994. Prior to his passing he encouraged his students (a small remnant) to "tread out the understanding." After 2 1/2 years of stagnation I remembered those words, and without understanding why (at the time) began to do down into my basement and sit there, in the dark, in silence. I did this for several weeks, after which time I was led to an eastern practice that balances the energy of the body. I credit the 7-day experience that followed to these two eastern practices (I cannot stress enough how important it is to combine the practices of the east with the ancient instruction contained in the Sacred Test of the west). Immediately following this 7-day experience I was led to the 49th chapter of Genesis, and there, encoded in the scriptures, was a detailed account of what I had just experienced as a crash-course. It would take another 7 years to come to fruition. It is through this ancient biblical process that one is transformed from an unholy creation to an holy creation... from unrighteousness to righteousness. The law is never done away with. It is there to teach us, to prepare us for the spiritual journey that lays ahead, if we wish to take that journey, which we see in the journey of the children of Israel, who were given the law prior to their entering the promised land (where they ate no more of the manna, symbolizing the carnal law, but of the old corn, symbolizing the spiritual word of God) where they would fight the battles that would lead them into righteousness. But unfortunately, they were never able to reach this state due to their disobedience.  

Let me be clear. The law is necessary. It is a mind-body discipline. I served under such a law for a full 21 years, which is no coincidence. Abraham worked 7 years for Leah, 7 for Rachel, and 6 for his wages (under Laban, his father-IN-LAW). He then left and traveled a year, after which time he separates from Esau (which for me was when I left a mindset that would have me forfeiting my spiritual birthright). 7 more years brings us to 28, God's full cycle of time. 7 pertains to the spiritual, and to the spiritual process (7 ewe lambs with Abraham, 7 daughters with Moses, 7 nations to drive out of the promised land, 7 daughters of Zion, 7 devils cast of of Mary Magdalene) through which we are perfected, completed, made pure.

Those that are purified through the mind-body discipline of the law serve one purpose, those that are purified through the heart discipline advocated by Jesus serve another. That is why it is called a kingdom, in which there are kings, lords, and servants. We must each follow our own heart.  

 

Godspeed,

Sandra 


ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, after reading your last post, I question your understanding of the Spiritual.  And I say that with all sincerity as I think you are being led to grasp the Spiritual.  What is your understanding of how the "righteousness of Elohim WITHOUT the Law," is accomplished (Rom 3:21)?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Sandra L. Butler said:

If you definition of Torah is the first 5 books then the answer is both. The book of Genesis starts by providing us with the spiritual process through which our transgression (a violation of God's spiritual law); sin, can be removed. The patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Father, Son, Holy Spirit provide a spiritual understanding of God's image... "let us make man in our image," so that we may be spiritually made or formed in the image of God. Mankind is far removed from this spiritual image, which is why the world is in the state it is in! Joseph (not the man, but the meaning) brings us back into the true linage (see Matthew 1:2,16). Exodus provides more details as to how we leave the lineage that has led us into bondage (into addiction) and be grafted into the lineage that leads to freedom, but the children of Israel fought against this transformation, never ascending the mount, never entering the promise land, never receiving the gift of the holy sSPIRIT... the spiritual seed of God... Abraham's seed. Had they tapped into the power of the spiritual ark of covenant there would have been no need for the rest of the Torah... THE CARNAL LAW!  Righteousness would have been a law unto itself, as it was for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. Now they would have to do physically what they refused to do spiritually. The Torah begins with the SPIRIT and ends with the LAW.  The book of Joshua gives an account of the spiritual works that constitute the SPIRIT of the TORAH, thereby fulfilling the LAW of the TORAH. Joshua was full of the SPIRIT of wisdom, wisdom being the application (living) of the SPIRITUAL TRUTH contained in the TORAH. The Bible shows us two ways, two covenants: Hagar and Sarah, bondage and freedom, law and spirit. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, good answer for the most part, I can see you have put much time and effort into what you believe.  But you didn't address about WHY the Torah was given though?  Was it given because the Israelites had broken the commands Spiritually, or was it given for the reason Paul speaks of:

Rom 5:20
(20)  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul was consistent in his teaching.  He also says almost the same thing to the Galatians, and don't be confused with the word "because." The translators translated the Greek word "charin" (G5484) with the English word "because."  Paul uses "charin," which comes from the Greek word (G5485) "charis," which means gift, because he wanted to show that the Torah was added to "give" or "for the purpose" of transgression.  Look at it from the stand point that Paul is saying the Torah was added for the purpose of giving transgression.  That was the purpose, cause, or reason that Elohim gave the Torah, to increase (abound) or give (charin) transgression.

Gal 3:19
(19)  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because (G5484-charin) of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You see, Paul saw that Yeshua was The Seed of Abraham (a singular Seed, not many v16), and to distinguish Yeshua as THAT True Seed, the Torah was added to give transgression.  Abraham did EVERYTHING that Elohim commanded him (Gen 26:5), and to be the True Seed of Abraham, the Torah would weed out those who did not have the same heart and spirit that Abraham had, and in the process, transgression would be increased.  Most feel that the Torah was added because transgression had increased, but that is just not true, the Torah was added to increase transgression, plain and simple.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Sandra L. Butler said:

The children of Israel had already broken all of the commandments in spirit (spiritually) by resisting Moses in the wilderness (Moses representing the spirit of God). They broke the letter (word) of the Law when they built the gold calf, Aaron (who spoke for Moses) representing the word of God, which is why Aaron is associated with the building of the calf. And YES, ABSOLUTELY, when one knows the one true Elohim (which when divided into three sections [EL-OH-IM] reveals the true image of God) and then rejects that way, as the children of Israel (chosen out of all the nations to teach us about ourselves) rejected the voice of Moses (spoken through Aaron) one is worshipping a false image. We have all broken the first commandment (spiritually) many times. Yeshua illustrated this for us when he entered the temple (symbolizing the heart) overturning the tables (symbolizing what the bible calls "the fleshy tables of the heart") upon which they had set up many images (symbolizing our many false beliefs). The only thing that can overturn these false images or beliefs (other gods) is Truth, which Yeshua embodied, being the physical manifestation of God's word. 
 
ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Sandra, you are right on in thinking that the Torah has two sides, the letter/carnal (physical keeping) side, and the Spiritual side.  Although I not certain that when the carnal (physical Israelites) made and worshiped a carnal (physical gold calf), that was a breaking of the first command Spiritually.  Wouldn't a better explanation of breaking the 1st commandment "Spiritually," be when one has fully seen and knows the One True Elohim, and then rejects Him and worships Satan and his ways instead?  I'm not sure the children of Israel were at that level of understanding yet to be able to make that choice.

Also, wasn't the Torah added to INCREASE the transgression of Adam?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.


Sandra L. Butler said:

There is the spiriutal law and there is the carnal law. The Torah contains both!  

Moses illustrated the breaking of the spiritual law as he came down off the mount. When the children of Israel broke the first of these spiritual laws by worshiping the gold calf (You are not to have any other gods before my presence, You are not to make yourself a carved-image of any figure that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth beneath, that is in the waters beneath the earth). they were given the carnal law. The carnal law was added because of transgression of God's spiritual law. The carnal law was to pass at the passing of Moses, and again at the coming of Yeshua.  

 

What is a god spiritually? How do we bow down to them spiritually?

How do we take the name of YHWH for emptiness?

How do we hallow the Sabbath spiritually?

How do we honor our father and mother spiritually?  Who is our spiritual father?  and what is our spiritual mother? In honoring them spiritually we prolong our physical life. The patriarchs lived before the carnal law, obeying God's spiritual law,which prolonged their physical life. Abraham was 175 when he died, Isaac 180, Jacob 147, and Joseph 110. 

How do we murder spiritually?

How do we commit spiritual adultery? Matthew 15:19

How do we steal spiritually? Matthew 15:19; Malachi 3:8

How do we bear false witness spiritually?

How do we covet spiritually?

The physical reveals the spiritual. Just because we keep these commanments in the physical sense, doesn't mean we are keeping them in the spiritual sense. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 
James Trimm said:

The Torah is the "Law" they are not two different things.

Thank you for elaborating Parthenia.  Yes, and why the law forbids the weaving together of flax with wool. From a spiritual perspective, it has nothing to do with our physical clothing, but with our spiritual clothing, what we are wrapped in spiritually. And the less spiritual flesh we are wrapped in, the freer we will be both in this life and the afterlife.

I understand exactly what you mean. My husband has been telling me that for years, and I am continually working on that one... "...line upon line, precept upon precept..." (one of my favorites by the way). It is difficult when you have so many at different levels of understanding.

 

And yes, James and I are saying the same thing, one speaking from the carnal mind, the other from the spiritual mind. The temple symbolizes the heart, as does the earth, the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him. The six stone jars filled with water at the marriage in Cana symbolizes six thousand years filled with stoney-hearted people. Only those that are drawn out of the water (waste in their life) in the third day (which is now) will be turned to spirit, symbolized by wine. And you are so right Parthenia. The message is so simple once you understand God's spiritual language, a symbolic code (a profound revelation I received over a period of seven years, between 1998 and 2005). The names of the people, places, and things (many of which share the same symbolic meaning) repeat God's "end of days" message to His children over and over and over again, as this is how you teach children, and we are all children until we begin to eat of the spiritual meat and drink of the spiritual drink (the "new wine"). 

Godspeed,

Sandra

 


 
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

this dialogue is an excellent example of why we of Yahudah do not mix milk with meat.  It has nothing to do with drinking a glass of milk with a cheeseburger or hamburger.

It is as the Apostle Paul said, with the spirtually mature, Sandra, you can speak as you speak; however, sometimes we need to cut up the meat into small pieces so that the babies can eat and gain nourishment.  Yahweh give you wisdom in what I say.


I use to do as you are doing until Yahweh gave me a "Bread Machine and a "Food Processor."  Yaweh give you understanding of what I have just said.

 

Shalom
Parthenia K. Whitsett said:

James & Sandra:  You are both saying the same things; however, on different levels.  For example in Yeshayahu (Isaiah_ it is written, that Yahweh's House shall be a House of Prayer for all people.  Those who don't understand what Yahweh is saying think that he means "the temple to be built on the temple mount."  While those who do understand what Yahweh is saying, understand that we are to be a people of prayer for "we are his temple..the "temple of earth that He instructed our forefathers to build for Him, in other words, to allow Yahweh into our Hearts....He tells us through the Prophets that He does not inhabit temples of stone  (stoney hearts and buildings made by man)....as He Himself has made the temple that he desire to indwell:  Us."

Remember, Yahweh makes those who have been weaned from the "Milk" to understand Doctrine, and it is given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little, even as He says through the Prophets.  As Yahweh teaches you, you began to understand on a level that is very simplistic; however, so profound until it stuns the senses of those who are not being taught by Him and stumbling at the word.

Another example, In Corinthians, Paul tells Yisrael that we have no such custom of covering our heads; and that the woman's hair is given to her for a covering.  Many read this and become extremely confused; thinking that their physical dress somehow validates their spirituality and can't see that they are being pompous, prideful and stumbling at the word.

The two of you are at different stages in your understanding.  One sitting at the feet of the master is obvious here.

Shalom



Sandra L. Butler said:

I agree James. The Torah is of the Spirit, and the process by which one becomes spirit in essence is contained within the first book of the Torah; in the 1st and 49th chapters of Genesis, before the Law, before the Commandments, before the statutes and ordinances. It is through this process that the flesh (formed inside of our physical flesh) is removed through a spiritual circumcision, by which we become a spiritual Jew, and as it is written: "salvation is of the Jews," for it is the Jews (the children of Israel) that were given this ancient instruction. And it's no coincidence that they add up to 50 (1 + 49 = 50, the number of chapters in Genesis) for it is through the application of the ancient instruction contained therein that we celebrate our ONE-TIME spiritual jubilee, the physical revealing the spiritual.  

The most profound truth that the "spirit of truth" leads us into is the truth about ourselves, an understanding of ourselves.

I agree with everything that you are saying, for the Torah truly is of the Spirit, it's word, Truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We are just seeing it from different perspectives... " In my Father's house are many mansions," the word "mansions" meaning "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy)," revealing their spiritual element. I simply have a different relation-ship with the Torah than you do.


 
James Trimm said:

According to the Scriptures, those that observe the Torah are being led of the Spirit:

14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to
sin.
(Rom. 7:14 HRV)

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will
take away, the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you, a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you
shall keep My ordinances, and do them.
(Ezek. 36:27 HRV)

But when the Spirit of Truth has come, She will lead you in all Truth,...
(Jn. 16:13 HRV)

And what is the Scriptural definition of truth?  It is given in Psalms:

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah is truth.
143 Trouble and anguish have overtaken me, yet Your commandments are my delight.
144 Your testimonies are righteous forever: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145 I have called with my whole heart: answer me, O YHWH; I will keep Your statutes.
146 I have called You: save me, and I will observe Your testimonies.
147 I rose early at dawn, and cried: I hoped in Your word.
148 My eyes forestalled the night-watches, that I might meditate in Your word.
149 Hear my voice according unto Your lovingkindness: quicken me, O YHWH, as You
are wont.
150 They draw near that follow after wickedness: they are far from Your Torah.
151 You are near, O YHWH, and all Your commandments are truth.
152 Of old have I known from Your testimonies, that You have founded them forever.
(Ps. 119:142-152 HRV)

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