Nazarene Space

The Relationship of Paul to Jesus (Dr. J. Phillip Arnold)


My old friend and colleague D. J. Phillip Arnold wrote a chapter in the book Hillel and Jesus - Comparative Studies of Two Major Religious Leaders Edited by James H. Charlesworth and Loren L. Johns (1997).

Dr. Arnold wrote chapter 12 "The Relationship of Paul and Jesus". 

In chapter 12, J. P. Arnold addresses the assumed "paradigm of discontinuity" between Paul and Jesus. Arnold challenges past characterizations
of a Pauline school that was antithetical to Jesus' own thought and teachings.
This antithesis was most visible in the Tübingen school and has been
rearticulated most recently (in revised form) by G. Lüdemann. In contrast,
Arnold emphasizes the continuity between Paul and Jesus, primarily with
regard to Paul's knowledge and use of traditional material about Jesus.
More specifically, he points to evidence of Paul's appreciation of the
historical Jesus in Paul's "transmission of traditional material about
Jesus, his application of these traditions to the needs of Gentile converts,
and his defense of these traditions against opposing Jesus traditions which
represented ‘another Jesus’ and a ‘different gospel.’"

http://www.ambs.edu/LJohns/Hillel&Jesus.htm#12

In fact Dr. Arnold points out that Paul would never knowingly counter the teachings of Yeshua, because Paul believed Yeshua was YHWH.  Paul would therefor have striven to maintain great fidelity to the teachings of Yeshua.

Its a great chapter of a very good book.

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James Trimm,

There is no sense in discussing anything with you, since you have YOUR own perVERSION and private interpretation of Father Yahweh's inspired word.

"El" is applied to angels, as well as God, even to false gods, so saying "Yeshua is called El" is meaningless.
Yeshua, YHWH and angels are all El(ohim) as this is a relative word, like "master" - there can be multiple masters, or "father", as there can be multiple fathers without a conflict of absolute meaning.

YHWH is the only pre-existent and eternal one, He is the Father, Yeshua is His son, which He created, like the rest of the existing things.
The NT and epistle to the Hebrews is especially vocal in preaching that Yeshua is a creation, and the firstborn of creation.
Only YHWH is eternal, being the Father - all His sons, first-begotten and unique, or angelic multitudes, they're all inferior to Him, who is the only eternal/timeless.
We're told YHWH created the earth THROUGH Yeshua, implying Yeshua was the vessel that said "let there be light", and that YHWH was speaking through him, acting through him.

But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.
1 Cor 8:6

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:10

Contrastingly, YHWH is not inside the world, but the world is inside Him.

For in him we live and move and have our being..
Acts 17:28

Greg Olson said:
Yahushua's soul/spirit is not created. The Son is Eternal. Only his mortal flesh was created.
>Yeshua is a creation, and the firstborn of creation.

13 And has delivered us from the dominion of darkness, and brought us into the Kingdom
of His beloved Son,
14 By whom we have redemption and remission of sins;
15 Who is the image of Eloah, which is invisible, and the Firstborn of all creation.
16 And by Him was created everything that is in heaven and on earth: all that is seen
and all that is not seen, whether thrones, or sovereignties, or principalities, or authorities. Everything, by His hand and by Him was created.
17 He was from before: and all, and everything, by Him was established.
(Col. 1:13-17)

Messiah the "Word" created all created things. As a matter of logic, all things can be classed as either "created" or "not created". Messiah created all things that fall in the "created" catagory. If Messiah himself falls in that catagory, he would have to have created himself, which of course is impossible, as he would have to have pre-existed his own creation.

I notice that you invoked verse 15 above as if to imply that this verse means that Messiah was the first thing created. The mistake is made by confusing the terms "firstborn" and "first born" (two words). In English "firstborn" is a compound of the words "first" and "born" but this is not true in Hebrew and Aramaic where the word "firstborn" is BIKKUR and refers to primary heirship, which is not always the same as being the first born with two words. For example Ps. 89:27 says that YHWH will make King David His "firstborn" but David was not the "first born" (two words) (see 1Sam. 16:1-13). In Jer. 31:9 YHWH calls Ephraim "firstborn" yet he was not the "first born" (Gen. 41:52) and in Gen. 25:29ff Esau sells his firstborn heirship rights to Jacob, but Jacob did not become "first born". So the fact that Messiah is the firstborn of all creation only means that He is the primary heir of all creation, and NOT that he was the "first born" of all creation.
The following is a vision God gave me to clearly show the relationship between Himself and our Messiah.

YAHVEH and YAHVEHSHUA


These are the names of God and his Son. They are Hebrew names because they were given to us in the Hebrew language. The Holy Spirit of Yahveh showed me how their relationship can be compared to a human hand.

THUMB: This finger is different from all the rest and represents the creation of Yahvehshua by Yahveh, in this case, a thumbs up, positive action. We know from the Scriptures that God is one and that He created all things that were created. Since we know that Yahvehshua existed eternally with His Father before the foundations of the Earth, it follows that time, itself, which we know is a created dimension, was created after Yahvehshua.

INDEX FINGER: This is the finger that points directions and therefore it represents the direction that the Son gets from the Father. Yahvehshua 's mission on Earth was to do the will of His Father who sent Him. He prayed often for direction so that He could know and do the will of Yahveh.

MIDDLE FINGER: This is the longest finger and represents the power that Yahvehshua gets from The Father. As the Scriptures indicate, the power Yahvehshua used to heal, raise from the dead, etc. all come from Yahveh.

RING FINGER: This finger represents union, glory, and the glory of union. The two are inseparable in this context. This finger is where the wedding ring is worn to represent union with a spouse and the uniting is considered to be a glorious event. In the case of Yahvehshua, the union is in the form of sonship with The Father and the glory that The Father bestows upon the Son. The Scriptures tell us that Yahvehshua gets His glory from His Father, not from us. Therefore, if we want to glorify the Son, Yahvehshua, we need to glorify Yahveh, the Father, because Yahveh is the source of Yahvehshua 's glory. The ring finger also represents the union Yahvehshua has with his born-again servants and the spousal relationship we will have with Him after the wedding feast.

LITTLEST FINGER: This seems to be the most insignificant finger of all, but it's like a fuse in an electrical circuit. Nothing works without it. It represents the authority, that Yahveh gives Yahvehshua. Without the authority to use His power, Yahvehshua could do virtually nothing.

SUMMARY: Yahvehshua was created by and gets His direction, His power, His glory, and His authority; all from Yahveh, His Father.

Given to Jeff Morency 4/14/01.
Which is the master and which is the servant? Whom do you worship?
"This finger is different from all the rest and represents the creation of Yahvehshua by Yahveh, in this case, a thumbs up, positive action. We know from the Scriptures that God is one and that He created all things that were created. Since we know that Yahvehshua existed eternally with His Father before the foundations of the Earth, it follows that time, itself, which we know is a created dimension, was created after Yahvehshua."

I think this makes sense. Yeshua must have existed before time, and thus, he by definition can be created and timeless - good observation.
He was not "created" he was "brought forth". He was eternally existent within the mind of YHWH and YHWH emanated or brought him forth.

Paul says Messiah is the Wisdom of YHWH (1Cor. 1:24) and there is no time in the distant past that YHWH was without Wisdom.



Christian said:
"This finger is different from all the rest and represents the creation of Yahvehshua by Yahveh, in this case, a thumbs up, positive action. We know from the Scriptures that God is one and that He created all things that were created. Since we know that Yahvehshua existed eternally with His Father before the foundations of the Earth, it follows that time, itself, which we know is a created dimension, was created after Yahvehshua."

I think this makes sense. Yeshua must have existed before time, and thus, he by definition can be created and timeless - good observation.
"Paul says Messiah is the Wisdom of YHWH (1Cor. 1:24) and there is no time in the distant past that YHWH was without Wisdom."


Exactly - time did not exist yet.
Notice that the creation of time and angels is not specifically mentioned either - so not all creations are mentioned in Genesis...

James Trimm said:
He was not "created" he was "brought forth". He was eternally existent within the mind of YHWH and YHWH emanated or brought him forth.

Paul says Messiah is the Wisdom of YHWH (1Cor. 1:24) and there is no time in the distant past that YHWH was without Wisdom.



Christian said:
"This finger is different from all the rest and represents the creation of Yahvehshua by Yahveh, in this case, a thumbs up, positive action. We know from the Scriptures that God is one and that He created all things that were created. Since we know that Yahvehshua existed eternally with His Father before the foundations of the Earth, it follows that time, itself, which we know is a created dimension, was created after Yahvehshua."

I think this makes sense. Yeshua must have existed before time, and thus, he by definition can be created and timeless - good observation.
However YHWH is defined prior to the creation of time, he has was not without wisdom in any form of existence, His Wisdom is just as eternally existent as He.

My thinking is this:

The first act of Creation was tzimtzum, contraction. The Infinite One filled all of all (being infinite) and thus the first thing needed was to create nothingness, that which was not YHWH. This was done by YHWH contracting in from all directions and creating nothing. This nothing had no time and space, it was a singularity, a zero-dimensional point. It was a very specific nothingness. Into this "nothing", this singularity YHWH emanated of himself, his own energy.

Since E=mc2 (Energy = Mass times Velocity of Light squared)
and m=v/d (Mass = Volume over Density)
and v=l*w*h (Volume = Length times Width times Highth)

This resulted in the creation of time and space as well as energy and mass in it.




Christian said:
"Paul says Messiah is the Wisdom of YHWH (1Cor. 1:24) and there is no time in the distant past that YHWH was without Wisdom."


Exactly - time did not exist yet.
Notice that the creation of time is not specifically mentioned either - so not all creations are mentioned in Genesis...


James Trimm said:
He was not "created" he was "brought forth". He was eternally existent within the mind of YHWH and YHWH emanated or brought him forth.

Paul says Messiah is the Wisdom of YHWH (1Cor. 1:24) and there is no time in the distant past that YHWH was without Wisdom.



Christian said:
"This finger is different from all the rest and represents the creation of Yahvehshua by Yahveh, in this case, a thumbs up, positive action. We know from the Scriptures that God is one and that He created all things that were created. Since we know that Yahvehshua existed eternally with His Father before the foundations of the Earth, it follows that time, itself, which we know is a created dimension, was created after Yahvehshua."

I think this makes sense. Yeshua must have existed before time, and thus, he by definition can be created and timeless - good observation.

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