Nazarene Space

Hi

I need some practical assistance / advise. Numerous times when trying to explain the hidden treasures and truth's about YHWH living word especially to Christians I encounter strong resistance. They always try and debate that they no longer are under the law and one does not obtain salvation through the keeping the Torah etc.

I try to inform them that Yeshua came to forefull the Torah here on Earth and live it out perfectly, and not to do away with it. Surely we would want too imitate the master in every way. Secondly there are great blessings in keeping the Torah as can be seen in his word.

We in or own incompetent human state are incapable of keeping the Torah 100% and only through excepting Yeshua as our savior can truly see the kingdom of YHWH.

Basically would like to know if anyone has any advise when trying to convey his message to people. I know it can be challenging and most often met with much opposition, but I thought I would ask. Perhaps my explanation/understanding is wrong.

  

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I always like to start by asking them if they actually believe the book they SAY they believe? If no, plant a seed and move on. If, yes! Then address the points they bring up. In your case, you would need to be able to convey to them that same book says sin is "transgression of the law" they are thinking they are "not under". 

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)

Ask them how they rectify the obvious contradiction. Then tell them that, perhaps, without understanding the various cultures of the sects of Judaism that existed in the 1st Century, .....they could be misunderstanding Paul? IF, they are still listening, then explain what Rabbi Trimm has written here...

Much of the confusion about Paul's teachings on the Torah involves two scripture phrases, which appear in the New Testament only in Paul's writings (in Rom. Gal. & 1Cor.). These two phrases are "works of the law" and "under the law", each of which appears 10 times in the Scriptures.

The first of these phrases, "works of the law", is best understood through its usage in Gal. 2:16. Here Paul writes:

knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law
but by faith in Yeshua the Messiah,
even we have believed in Messiah Yeshua,
that we might be justified by faith in Messiah
and not by the works of the law;
for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Paul uses this phrase to describe a false method of justification which is diametrically opposed to "faith in the Messiah". To Paul "works of the law" is not an obsolete Old Testament system, but a heresy that has never been true.

The term "works of the Torah" has shown up as a technical theological term used in a document in the Dead Sea Scrolls called MMT which says:

Now we have written to you some of the
works of the law, those which we determined
would be beneficial for you...
And it will be reckoned to you as righteousness,
in that you have done what is right and good before Him...
(4QMMT (4Q394-399) Section C lines 26b-31)

The second of these phrases is "under the law". This phrase may best be understood from its usage in Rom. 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but under grace." Paul, therefore, sees "under grace" and "under the law" as diametrically opposed, one cannot be both. The truth is that since we have always been under grace (see Gen. 6:8; Ex. 33:12, 17; Judges 6:17f; Jer. 31:2) we have never been "under the law". This is because the Torah was created for man, man was not created for the Torah (see Mk. 2:27). "Under the law" then, is not an obsolete Old Testament system, but a false teaching, which was never true.

There can be no doubt that Paul sees "works of the law" and "under the law" as categorically bad, yet Paul calls the Torah itself "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12), certainly Paul does not use these phrases to refer to the Torah itself.


Paul uses the phrase "woks of the law" to describe a false method of justification which is diametrically opposed to "faith in the Messiah". "Works of the law" is not an obsolete Old Testament system, but a heresy that has never been true. This heresy is the very doctrine laid out in MMT, twenty-four purity regulations about which the Essenes held a stricter halacha than their Pharisaic counterparts, and which they believed would be reckoned to them as righteousness. Apparently Paul’s opponent takes “righteousness/justification” in this passage of MMT to mean “salvation”. Paul here argues that it is faith in Messiah and not these “works of the law” by which we are saved.

 

you don't have to.

a minute well spent studying Torah bringeth more

merit unto the ulam haba' than an hour debating with a min.

I think the most important thing to start with is the simple message of the gospel.

"The Kingdom of YHWH is at hand, repent therefore and believe."  (Mark 1:15, Matt 3:2, Matt 4:17)

I honestly believe many don't even get that far, so I think that would be a good start.

Laura,  if there was no Torah there would be no gospel .  Messiah is from the first page , Yeshua taught Torah

Hi Rick,

I believe that most Christian teachers don't teach or preach the actual gospel.

"The Kingdom of YHWH is at hand, repent therefore and believe."  (Mark 1:15, Matt 3:2, Matt 4:17)

The Kingdom of YHWH is at hand

- The Kingdom has rules that have been established and shared from a compassionate and personal YHWH.  These rules are in effect and will be in effect.  They are written in the Torah.  They will be in effect for millennia, they are the rules of the Kingdom, and when Yeshua returns to establish the Kingdom on earth, these rules will continue as the Kingdom rules.  They are guidelines and instructions, yes, they are also the Constitution of the Republic of YHWH.  IMHO I choose to acknowledge this and learn to follow those instructions.  Our Citizenship is "not of this world" but of the "Kingdom to come".

repent therefore

Repent, Teshuva, turn 180 degrees.  If what we were doing was "just fine" or if it is okay to live "however we please" because we are "gentiles" and "not part of Israel", if that was all fine then Yeshua wouldn't have had to die.  He certainly did not die so that we could simply "believe" (I'll get to that), be forgiven, and then throw away what He did and live to our own devices.

and believe

Believe is an active verb, it's not simply a mental assent, as some would teach.  This is the "once saved, always saved" crowd.  Believing actually entails "believing" (wow!) and acting upon that which we believe.  Did Yeshua die for my sins?  Yes.  Did Yeshua die so that I could be forgiven?  Yes.  Did Yeshua die and rise again so that I could find new life in Him?  Yes.  Did Yeshua die so that I could return to the "pig pile"?  No.  Did Yeshua die to "abolish" the "cruel, OT God's laws & ways"?  Ha!  This is blasphemy.  But this is what we're taught, isn't it?

So, IMHO, the best place "to start" is actually with the simple message of the Gospel.  Because most get that wrong.  And what we believe about Yeshua and what He did and why He did it, is of eternal consequence.

This is my perspective, as a former Christian.


 
Rick said:

Laura,  if there was no Torah there would be no gospel .  Messiah is from the first page , Yeshua taught Torah

i tell people that even if the dont believe the law is for today that G-d still wants us to use it as a standard for clean living. It is G-d's standard for his people.

Basically would like to know if anyone has any advise when trying to convey his message to people.

the law is for those who adhere to the covenant.

the gospel is for all nations.

don't insist. because...

so it is written.

so it shall be done.

indeed you are correct.

but i have met priests and pastors and from their conversations i can detect their natural abhorrence to the law, which, as a matter of discipline i completely respect their sentiments. one thing every messianic professor must bear in mind is the ancient rule that gospel should not aim at judaizing while judaism does not equate gospel.



Matityahu Ben Avraham said:

i tell people that even if the dont believe the law is for today that G-d still wants us to use it as a standard for clean living. It is G-d's standard for his people.

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