Nazarene Space

Shalom all, its strange what is going on in the religious world today. People who have been in church for years, now, all of a sudden are starting to seek for Jewish teachings, Jewish items, Jewish bibles, and so on. I see it as a great move of G-d, and feel he is preparing the world for a major change, mostly, pulling folks back to him.
What is bothering me is how many of my friends I know, whom have left Yeshua, and now say, maybe he never lived, or, its all a lie. How do you turn your back on the one who brought you to the dance? Sure, there are many problems with our past, and how we were brought up with jesus, and all the christian baggage with that. But what is one of the signs of Messiah? He would draw people back to Torah. In my life, I can say HE sure did this, and in all yours to. At one time, most of us were christians, or messianics, and now, were are Jewish, Nazarenes, or whatever, but the point is, Torah is our life, we have seen through the garbage and now, taken all of Torah in we can get.
My prayer is that G-D will protect us, give us true answers and wisdom to handle all the anti missionaries, to separate truth and lies. Please folks, don't fall for the lies, I love my Jewish brothers and sisters, but we are to show them Messiah, not for them to take messiah away from us.
Mika'el

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Very good points, thank you for replying on my discussion, I am finding more and more out there like me, I thought I was all alone, great point on the sacrifice, most of my brothers, Jews, do not want to handles this one, they will say, We were following pagan practice, and YAH had to set it up that way so we would not fall into sacrificing to idols, Yes, this is what I get to hear. lol.

zahav peretz said:
Q="How do you turn your back on the one who brought you to the dance?"

Ans: If he is naturally UNGRATEFUL. In the end of the party that man will return to his table and swallow what he vomited.

The Need for A Yeshua':

Brethren, imagine how onerous and expensive is Torah keeping today if Yeshua did not make it affordable. A woman in Puerto Rico who has given birth to a daughter must, after the days of impurity, offer the prescribed offering in aretz. To do this she needs first to apply for a passport and book a flight to Tel Aviv or Yerushalyim, consider how much this travel costs, and arriving in Yerushlyim buy two pigeons for the sacrifice. But even if two pigeons are easier to get than the flight ticket still she cannot offer one because there is no bayit miqdash standing today, thus, she will never be technically purified at all!

It is almost impossible to be "righteous" in Torah keeping today because of the lack of "sacrifice". There has to be a sacrifice. There has to be a means of it, not because I insist but because IT IS SO COMMANDED IN TORAH! and if I want to keep it COMPLETELY I must seek to complete my actions too. There is no amount of rabbinic responsa that can outweigh my natural "guilt" if I turn away from "a possible" means when one is freely obtainable nearby.

At least today I feel I have complete righteousness, both technically and halachically speaking. I might not be a christian, I may not be a notzri and the rabbis may no longer call me a Jew, but at least I have found the simplest way to be able to get nearer to 613 than I was before. Baruch Hasheym!
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Q="My prayer is that G-D will protect us, give us true answers and wisdom to handle all the anti missionaries, to separate truth and lies."

Ans: You have the right to say that "prayer" now; while my brethren have the right to counter the missionaries, this is needed in order to preserve Judaism; BUT to separate truth and lies requires "correct thinking and correct reasoning" the very stock that civilization is perennially impoverished! Only the Spirit of G-d can do that in the minds of men.

As for me, I don't care if my brethren will never find Moshiach until the moment they meet Him face to face the Last (remaining) Day ba'atzmak, I have no missionary appetite, my obsession is to remember, to keep, and to observe His mitzvot, not some, but all of it.

Salud ushlowm

zahav
Hello Mika'el,

For me, the problem isn't Yahshua: it's Paul.

I am finding more and more lately, that people will openly acknowledge that Yahshua did not come to abolish the Torah, that He kept it perfectly, but rather that it was Paul/Shaul who, by his own arbitrary decision making, "set us free" from the Torah! Those who misunderstand Paul fall into two camps: first, some are deluded into thinking that he preached against Torah (false). The second camp recognizes the (apparent) contradiction between Yahshua and Paul (as he is traditionally taught by Christianity), and reject Paul's writings altogether. One group makes Paul their "god", the other discredits him as the genuine apostle / rabbi / Torah teacher that he is.

Other than that, I agree 100% with the things you are saying. Torah leads and guides us on paths of righteousness.
You are so right, Paul is the problem, some say he was teaching from a talmudic, or mishnah state of mind, some say he was speaking against the oral law, to me, if someones letters are that hard to understand, they are not that important. There are many former messianics who are leaving Torah because Paul said we were free from the Torah, so who konws, to me, I stay away from Paul, and his writtings.
J. Jury said:
Hello Mika'el,

For me, the problem isn't Yahshua: it's Paul.

I am finding more and more lately, that people will openly acknowledge that Yahshua did not come to abolish the Torah, that He kept it perfectly, but rather that it was Paul/Shaul who, by his own arbitrary decision making, "set us free" from the Torah! Those who misunderstand Paul fall into two camps: first, some are deluded into thinking that he preached against Torah (false). The second camp recognizes the (apparent) contradiction between Yahshua and Paul (as he is traditionally taught by Christianity), and reject Paul's writings altogether. One group makes Paul their "god", the other discredits him as the genuine apostle / rabbi / Torah teacher that he is.

Other than that, I agree 100% with the things you are saying. Torah leads and guides us on paths of righteousness.
I don't mean to push anyone away from Paul; his writings are inspired by Spirit of Yah, so they are definitely important. But I also don't blame you for putting him on the "back burner", so to speak. All Scripture has a hierarchy: for instance, Torah trumps all, Prophets trump Writings, etc. All in all, it's good to read Paul, just keeping in mind that:

1) Paul openly recognizes that Peter, John, and Jacob all came before him as pillars of the faith (Gal 2:9), so his writings must be read in the perspective of the writings of Peter, John, and Jacob all having priority.
2) If Paul's writings are "Scripture", and Scripture cannot be broken, then what Paul says must align with the rest of Scripture. If all other Scriptural witnesses (and I do mean all) claim that Torah is valid, then Paul's writings must support this conclusion as well, or else he can't be considered Scripture. David in the Psalms even calls Torah "perfect, converting the soul" (Ps. 19).
3) Peter warned us that Paul's writings were confusing, and that many would twist them to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:14-16).
4) Paul wrote from a very distinct background as a Pharasaic Jew (James Trimm has a great teaching on this, regarding the origins of Pharasaic Judaism).

Regards, Toviyah

Mike Clark said:
You are so right, Paul is the problem, some say he was teaching from a talmudic, or mishnah state of mind, some say he was speaking against the oral law, to me, if someones letters are that hard to understand, they are not that important. There are many former messianics who are leaving Torah because Paul said we were free from the Torah, so who konws, to me, I stay away from Paul, and his writtings.
This is true with what you are saying, and I would love to see the teaching about Paul teaching as a Pharasaical view, but I have seen some history, just coming out over the past few years that tells a whole separate story about Paul, even maybe backed up by some of the writings of the dead sea scrolls. James and Paul did have major problems, you can even read James letter, then read Pauls, and it seem Paul changes everything James set up. But I do find some good stuff in his letters, so I am in not way bashing him, I am just very careful, even the writing of Acts is in question.
Michael.
I agree, for Paul himself said he was sent to the non Jews, since I am a Jew, I have no need to read his info, that is why I read James, Peter, and John. I really don't feel Paul wrote Hebrews, there are to many errors in it, Paul was to smart to make the mistakes in it that are there.
zahav peretz said:
Friends:

IMHO, there is nothing that can make "Shaul" writings a problem as long as we recognize him the way he wanted to be: That he is a minister sent to the Gentiles (as Kefa & Co were to the Jews) and in that mission he has peculiar need of teaching the Besurah.

As a Jew I have no problem with Shaul writings: except the Letter to the Hebrews I simply just set them aside as one meant to be read by Gentiles. There is no sense in pursuing further, arguing, complaining why says he this and that, when he was simply talking to a different audience. Bear in mind that Shaul was meant to proclaim the Besurah to the gentiles not to proclaim Moshe (Torah), imagine how difficult it was, preaching to an empire immersed in idolatry; to this Shaul had the freedom to use whatever wisdom the Ruach HaQodesh endowed him along the way; for that Shaul deserves respect from both sides, the Jews and Gentiles. Why must Shaul talk about Torah before gentiles? Imagine the parody in the middle of anti-semitic empire. Torah "was" something unacceptable to the universe that time, and Shaul cannot simply gamble to hitch the Besurah into the fate of that scheme: he has to modify something: If we go over from Acts to Philippians thats what really occurred behind his preachings.

There is big difference between James and Shaul: the former was meant to rule the notzrim in Jerushalym, the latter to proclaim to the gentiles. Of course, the manner of teaching require different approach between the two audiences.

There is more advantage in keeping things simple. If the Letter is not meant for you don't read it.

zahav
Paul was not the problem at all. I find that many simply misinterpret Paul's writings to the point of rejecting him altogether. Paul was a true follower of the Messiah. What scriptures of Paul causes you to doubt that he was a true Apostle of Yeshua?

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