Nazarene Space

What does the phrase, "All Isral will be saved," mean?

Many Believers interpret the statement, “And so all Israel will be saved,” to mean that after “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” Yeshua will return, reveal Himself as Messiah to the Jewish people and, as a result, the entire Jewish race will experience a mass conversion. I don't believe this is so!

The key to understanding this statement is to understand which “Israel” Paul is referring to: Israel “according to the flesh,” Israel “according to the promise” or the “Israel of Elohim!” In order to answer this question properly; however, we must first examine his statement, “all Israel will be saved,” in context!

In Romans 11:13-24,Paul likens Israel to a cultivated olive tree and explains that some of its branches were cut off due to unbelief. Of course, the branches that remained on the tree symbolize remnant Israel, the “children of the promise,” and the branches that were cut off symbolize the “children of the flesh” (Rom. 9:1-8). In the same analogy, Paul also likens Gentiles to a wild olive tree and explains that some of its branches were cut off and grafted into the cultivated olive tree, remnant Israel. Then, he explains that those branches that were grafted into remnant Israel symbolize Gentile converts to the faith.

Immediately after using the analogy of the two olive trees, Paul added, “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away wickedness from Jacob...” (Rom. 11:25-26).

Notice that Paul does not state, “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And then all Israel will be saved.” He states, “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.” The word “so” was translated from the Greek word “houto” which, according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, means: “in this manner,” “thus,” or “so.”

Thus, the context proves that Paul’s statement, “And so all Israel will be saved,” is a concluding statement to the topic he was currently addressing- the cultivated olive tree. This proves that the “Israel” he is referring to in his statement, “And so all Israel will be saved,” is the Israel symbolized by the cultivated olive tree, which includes both Israelite Believers and Gentile converts to the faith, the Israel of Elohim (Gal. 6:15-16).

YHWH, because He is a loving Elohim, will not wait until the fullness of the Gentiles has come to strip away Israel’s blindness. The truth is that He has been stripping away their blindness all along, even during the times of the Gentiles. Paul states, “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”

Had Paul intended the statement to mean that after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel will experience a mass conversion, he would have included that statement in his letter to the Hebrews!

Shalom!

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well, i cannot help if that is what you think or believe. that is yours. i follow my rabbis. at the crossroad we shake hands and remember: we believe in a common Moshiach who was sent from the G-d of our fathers Avrahom, Yitzchak veYaakov.

 

Without ' True Freewill ', one can neither: Love, nor Be Obedient... for, both of these things necessitate individual choice! Are we all then just automatons, marching in lockstep, as we obediently go about doing His bidding? And if so, why does He judge us, for the sins that He alone has decided that we should do? Poppycock.....

 

You had better rethink that... dear brother.


Solomon said:

I believe you're wrong, demonstrably so.
I can prove predestination if you want it.
I can send you material etc.

All our choices are predetermined. This is a natural extension of God's omnipotence/sovereignty.
If God is not omnipotent/sovereign in every situation and arena, including being sovereign over our will, then he is not actually omnipotent. God is the only one who has "free will."

Frank Barbour said:

While: "Yahweh knows The End from The Very Beginning" - that is not exactly the same thing as predestination.... The two trees within ' The Garden Of Eden ' were symbolic of The Mighty One giving all of mankind Freedom Of Choice - from the very outset... and they were also the literal action of having done so - for all of us.

While His Plan for mankind will be completed just as He has always planned it to be, and while He Himself fully knows the outcomes for everyone involved, each of us makes their own personal decisions - based upon this True Freedom Of Choice.


Solomon said:

I would say that we have no power to choose to cooperate or not cooperate; God decides to give us the will to cooperate. When a man does not have the will to submit and cooperate with him, it is because God has not given him this instinct.

"Nothing is free" - actually, we have nothing to barter with. We have no leverage with God. Our righteousness does not impress him. He mercifully saves everyone who gets saved, nobody has deserved anything.
You probably agree with this on some level, but I take it further based on my perspective of predestination.

beryl etanah said:

Nevertheless, let it be known that it is no secret that God desires the salvation of all,

agree. for G-d so loved the world that He gave his Only Begotten Son.


and is solely responsible for the salvation of all, and will effect this great goal by his own power,

agree. He has done his share for making that happen, now it is for man to do his share to perfect the calling. nothing is free after the free gift is enjoyed.

that none should boast of their own salvation;

this is basic pauline thinking written to the gentiles.


if God does not forcibly save a man, the man would not be saved.

G-d obtained it forcibly already by allowing violence upon the human life of His Son. now the lot falls for every man to cooperate. sola gracia is not sola after all.

shavuatov.

 

 

 

What about God being sovereign over our will..but not exercising this, letting us decide whether we follow Him or not.

Solomon said:
I believe you're wrong, demonstrably so.
I can prove predestination if you want it.
I can send you material etc.

All our choices are predetermined. This is a natural extension of God's omnipotence/sovereignty.
If God is not omnipotent/sovereign in every situation and arena, including being sovereign over our will, then he is not actually omnipotent. God is the only one who has "free will."

Frank Barbour said:

While: "Yahweh knows The End from The Very Beginning" - that is not exactly the same thing as predestination.... The two trees within ' The Garden Of Eden ' were symbolic of The Mighty One giving all of mankind Freedom Of Choice - from the very outset... and they were also the literal action of having done so - for all of us.

While His Plan for mankind will be completed just as He has always planned it to be, and while He Himself fully knows the outcomes for everyone involved, each of us makes their own personal decisions - based upon this True Freedom Of Choice.


Solomon said:

I would say that we have no power to choose to cooperate or not cooperate; God decides to give us the will to cooperate. When a man does not have the will to submit and cooperate with him, it is because God has not given him this instinct.

"Nothing is free" - actually, we have nothing to barter with. We have no leverage with God. Our righteousness does not impress him. He mercifully saves everyone who gets saved, nobody has deserved anything.
You probably agree with this on some level, but I take it further based on my perspective of predestination.

beryl etanah said:

Nevertheless, let it be known that it is no secret that God desires the salvation of all,

agree. for G-d so loved the world that He gave his Only Begotten Son.


and is solely responsible for the salvation of all, and will effect this great goal by his own power,

agree. He has done his share for making that happen, now it is for man to do his share to perfect the calling. nothing is free after the free gift is enjoyed.

that none should boast of their own salvation;

this is basic pauline thinking written to the gentiles.


if God does not forcibly save a man, the man would not be saved.

G-d obtained it forcibly already by allowing violence upon the human life of His Son. now the lot falls for every man to cooperate. sola gracia is not sola after all.

shavuatov.

 

 

 

Freewill means God is not sovereign over your will. So he is then NOT allmighty, when it comes to this particular arena.

Look, if God is allmighty, he can create true love and obedience (without freewill), which he does all the time. Freewill is just a lack of God's omnipotence, it serves no purpose at all.
To say "without freewill, so-and-so cannot exist" is to say God is unable to create something, meaning he is not allmighty, and that is blasphemy.

Even Luther and Calvin realized this...!
They weren't afraid to assign th responsibility for all things that happen to God, who is the source of all.
But so many people today are pelagianists, who are ready to judge God and condemn him if he "steps out of line" and "violates our freewill/personal sovereignty", as though we were in a position to judge over God.

Frank Barbour said:

Without ' True Freewill ', one can neither: Love, nor Be Obedient... for, both of these things necessitate individual choice! Are we all then just automatons, marching in lockstep, as we obediently go about doing His bidding? And if so, why does He judge us, for the sins that He alone has decided that we should do? Poppycock.....

 

You had better rethink that... dear brother.


Solomon said:

I believe you're wrong, demonstrably so.
I can prove predestination if you want it.
I can send you material etc.

All our choices are predetermined. This is a natural extension of God's omnipotence/sovereignty.
If God is not omnipotent/sovereign in every situation and arena, including being sovereign over our will, then he is not actually omnipotent. God is the only one who has "free will."

Amen, sister - if it were left up to free will, nobody would be saved, but because God desires the salvation of all (and God cannot fail) then shall this marvelous prophecy come to pass.

Michelle Bowie said:

Amo 9:9

For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
I just don't see the point of this.
Why would God even allow an oppurtunity for himself to fail in saving everyone (assuming you accept the scriptures when they say he desires the salvation of all.)
But most importantly, I don't see this scenario being expressed in the scriptures.


DanHenrik said:
What about God being sovereign over our will..but not exercising this, letting us decide whether we follow Him or not.

 

@ Solomon.

What makes you think that this would denote a failure upon Yahweh's part?

 

Have you never read that He [ The Potter ] has created two types of vessels for himself - from the very beginning - one type for glory, and the other slated for destruction? Each vessel has ' True Freedom Of Choice ' in what shall inevitably become of it... but, they are all created by Yahweh - for His Glory.

It glorifies Yahweh to spare The Righteous... and it glories Yahweh to destroy The Wicked... Thus, all vessels no matter their spiritual condition Fully Glorify Yahweh - despite themselves! And that, IS The Point....

 


Solomon said:

I just don't see the point of this.
Why would God even allow an oppurtunity for himself to fail in saving everyone (assuming you accept the scriptures when they say he desires the salvation of all.)
But most importantly, I don't see this scenario being expressed in the scriptures.


DanHenrik said:
What about God being sovereign over our will..but not exercising this, letting us decide whether we follow Him or not.

 

Luke 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the desert,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.

5 Every valley shall be filled in,

every mountain and hill made low.

The crooked roads shall become straight,

the rough ways smooth.

6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’ (do you believe this, or do you deny the scriptures?)


1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Contemplate:
The point is he desires the salvation of all.
To not get what one desires is failure, and God, being allmighty, does not allow himself to fail.
God cares more about granting us eternal salvation than granting us free agency (free agency serves no purpose and only glorifies man.)
Either way, you're missing the point: nobody sins unless God predestines it.
Yeshua died for us all.

Again I ask: do you believe God is not sovereign over our will?
If so, you believe then that God is not allmighty, but that our eternal fate is in our own hands (which is a way of deifying men.)

Frank Barbour said:

@ Solomon.

What makes you think that this would denote a failure upon Yahweh's part?

 

Have you never read that He [ The Potter ] has created two types of vessels for himself - from the very beginning - one type for glory, and the other slated for destruction? Each vessel has ' True Freedom Of Choice ' in what shall inevitably become of it... but, they are all created by Yahweh - for His Glory.

It glorifies Yahweh to spare The Righteous... and it glories Yahweh to destroy The Wicked... Thus, all vessels no matter their spiritual condition Fully Glorify Yahweh - despite themselves! And that, IS The Point....

 


Solomon said:

I just don't see the point of this.
Why would God even allow an oppurtunity for himself to fail in saving everyone (assuming you accept the scriptures when they say he desires the salvation of all.)
But most importantly, I don't see this scenario being expressed in the scriptures.


DanHenrik said:
What about God being sovereign over our will..but not exercising this, letting us decide whether we follow Him or not.

 

How can anyone choose anything, unless God predestines it?
How can a man create a thought or action - to create is to be God.
Only God creates. He creates everything we do and think.

Michelle Bowie said:

I believe the main point here is the love relationship with YHWH.

Ask yourselves.....if you were in love with someone, would you want them to be in love with you by choice or by force or with no emotion at all?

 

YHWH loves us all and desires that we all be saved...Israel and all of creation, yet He knows that not all will be saved, but He has promised that Israel will be...those who are not blinded for sure...and even those who are in part blinded.

 

The last days of great tribulation will be used as a last ditch effort to save as many as possible, but even scripture says that the wicked will be destroyed....so there is no way all will be saved.

 

Luke 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the desert,

Prepare the way for the Lord, [ Implies Action Upon The Part Of Someone Other Than Yahweh ]

make straight paths for him.   [ Calls For Human Action Of Repentance And Righteous Behavior ]

5 Every valley shall be filled in, [ After The Mighty One's Own Actions, At The Time Of The End ]

every mountain and hill made low. [ The Same ]

The crooked roads shall become straight, [ The Same ]

the rough ways smooth. [ The Same ]

6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’ (do you believe this, or do you deny the scriptures?) [ Yes, Solomon, even The Wicked will SEE Yahweh's salvation as it happens ]


1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [ Yes, ALL IN CHRIST - But are all in Christ? ]

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [ He WANTS All Men to be saved; but will they be? ]

Contemplate:
The point is He desires the salvation of all. [ Yes, I Do Agree. For That is Truth. ]
To not get what one desires is failure, [ False! If A Desire Is Unrighteous, Then Success Is Not An Acceptable Option. ]
, and God, being almighty, does not allow himself to fail. [ Yahweh, Being Merciful, Allowed Freedom Of Choice From The Beginning While Already Knowing The True Cost. Thus, This Is No Failure Attributed To Him. ]
God cares more about granting us eternal salvation than granting us free agency [ Yahweh Cares More About Doing What Is Right, He Is Righteous Above All Else. ]

(free agency serves no purpose and only glorifies man.) [ Free Agency Separates The Sheep From The Goats. ]
Either way, you're missing the point: nobody sins unless God predestines it. { If Yahweh Predestined For Us To Sin, Then It Would Make No Sense To Even Judge Us. ]
Yeshua died for us all. [ But, Not All Of Us Accept Him. ]

Again I ask: do you believe God is not sovereign over our will? [ He Could Have Been, But He Chose Not To Be. ]
If so, you believe then that God is not allmighty, [ Being All Powerful Doesn't Mean Being Tyrannical. ]

but that our eternal fate is in our own hands [ To A Certain Extent, Yes ]

(which is a way of deifying men.) [ Yahweh Created Man In His Image, With Freedom Of Choice. Read Psalm 82.]

 

If we were: " Created in His Image " - then in what ways? Can you create planets or stars? Can I destroy whole nations? Ah, But both of us can make choices... and for that, we will be judged!


Solomon said:

Luke 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the desert,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.

5 Every valley shall be filled in,

every mountain and hill made low.

The crooked roads shall become straight,

the rough ways smooth.

6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’ (do you believe this, or do you deny the scriptures?)


1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Contemplate:
The point is he desires the salvation of all.
To not get what one desires is failure, and God, being allmighty, does not allow himself to fail.
God cares more about granting us eternal salvation than granting us free agency (free agency serves no purpose and only glorifies man.)
Either way, you're missing the point: nobody sins unless God predestines it.
Yeshua died for us all.

Again I ask: do you believe God is not sovereign over our will?
If so, you believe then that God is not allmighty, but that our eternal fate is in our own hands (which is a way of deifying men.)

Frank Barbour said:

@ Solomon.

What makes you think that this would denote a failure upon Yahweh's part?

 

Have you never read that He [ The Potter ] has created two types of vessels for himself - from the very beginning - one type for glory, and the other slated for destruction? Each vessel has ' True Freedom Of Choice ' in what shall inevitably become of it... but, they are all created by Yahweh - for His Glory.

It glorifies Yahweh to spare The Righteous... and it glories Yahweh to destroy The Wicked... Thus, all vessels no matter their spiritual condition Fully Glorify Yahweh - despite themselves! And that, IS The Point....

 


Solomon said:

I just don't see the point of this.
Why would God even allow an oppurtunity for himself to fail in saving everyone (assuming you accept the scriptures when they say he desires the salvation of all.)
But most importantly, I don't see this scenario being expressed in the scriptures.


DanHenrik said:
What about God being sovereign over our will..but not exercising this, letting us decide whether we follow Him or not.

 

The text clearly says as ALL have died in Adam, the same ALL will become alive in Christ.
The same ALL who died in Adam will be saved in Christ.

"He WANTS All Men to be saved; but will they be?"

When my God wants something, he creates it and gets it, case closed.

You clearly believe in a God who fails at getting his goal, pathetically.
Therefore you degrade the true God by your belittiling of him.'


You should re-read my previous posts in this thread.
I've pre-empted your objections long ago.
For example I asked you what the point of believing in freewill is, and you confirmed that you simply believe in this because of your unbiblical concept of deity and because you think God would be a sinner if he simply did as he pleased without regard for our "will" (which went above your head.)

I also pointed out the fact that nobody can "will" or desire or choose or do anything, except God gives them the power to do so, which you also ignored.

It would be nice to continue this in private messages with you, though.

Frank Barbour said:



1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [ Yes, ALL IN CHRIST - But are all in Christ? ]

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [ He WANTS All Men to be saved; but will they be? ]

Contemplate:
The point is He desires the salvation of all. [ Yes, I Do Agree. For That is Truth. ]
To not get what one desires is failure, [ False! If A Desire Is Unrighteous, Then Success Is Not An Acceptable Option. ]
, and God, being almighty, does not allow himself to fail. [ Yahweh, Being Merciful, Allowed Freedom Of Choice From The Beginning While Already Knowing The True Cost. Thus, This Is No Failure Attributed To Him. ]
God cares more about granting us eternal salvation than granting us free agency [ Yahweh Cares More About Doing What Is Right, He Is Righteous Above All Else. ]

s ]

(free agency serves no purpose and only glorifies man.) [ Free Agency Separates The Sheep From The Goats. ]
Either way, you're missing the point: nobody sins unless God predestines it. { If Yahweh Predestined For Us To Sin, Then It Would Make No Sense To Even Judge Us. ]
Yeshua died for us all. [ But, Not All Of Us Accept Him. ]

Again I ask: do you believe God is not sovereign over our will? [ He Could Have Been, But He Chose Not To Be. ]
If so, you believe then that God is not allmighty, [ Being All Powerful Doesn't Mean Being Tyrannical. ]

but that our eternal fate is in our own hands [ To A Certain Extent, Yes ]

(which is a way of deifying men.) [ Yahweh Created Man In His Image, With Freedom Of Choice. Read Psalm 82.]

 

If we were: " Created in His Image " - then in what ways? Can you create planets or stars? Can I destroy whole nations? Ah, But both of us can make choices... and for that, we will be judged!


Solomon said:

Luke 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:

“A voice of one calling in the desert,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord,

make straight paths for him.

5 Every valley shall be filled in,

every mountain and hill made low.

The crooked roads shall become straight,

the rough ways smooth.

6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’ (do you believe this, or do you deny the scriptures?)


1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Contemplate:
The point is he desires the salvation of all.
To not get what one desires is failure, and God, being allmighty, does not allow himself to fail.
God cares more about granting us eternal salvation than granting us free agency (free agency serves no purpose and only glorifies man.)
Either way, you're missing the point: nobody sins unless God predestines it.
Yeshua died for us all.

Again I ask: do you believe God is not sovereign over our will?
If so, you believe then that God is not allmighty, but that our eternal fate is in our own hands (which is a way of deifying men.)

Frank Barbour said:

@ Solomon.

What makes you think that this would denote a failure upon Yahweh's part?

 

Have you never read that He [ The Potter ] has created two types of vessels for himself - from the very beginning - one type for glory, and the other slated for destruction? Each vessel has ' True Freedom Of Choice ' in what shall inevitably become of it... but, they are all created by Yahweh - for His Glory.

It glorifies Yahweh to spare The Righteous... and it glories Yahweh to destroy The Wicked... Thus, all vessels no matter their spiritual condition Fully Glorify Yahweh - despite themselves! And that, IS The Point....

 




@ Solomon.

 

You said: " When my God wants something, he creates it and gets it, case closed. "

 

When Yahweh led Israel into the desert, and called Moses up onto the mountain to speak with Him, what did Israel do?

They: ' Formed A Golden Calf ', ' Held An Orgy ', and ' Worshiped It '! Was that Yahweh's Plan? Why did they do this?

 

When Yahweh told them to eat the manna, they grumbled against Him. Was that also His doing?

 

When He rose early and sent them His prophets, and they killed them, was that too His plan?

 

Yahweh isn't powerless! Nor, have I ever claimed anything like that. Yahweh is Loving and Merciful!

 

What Human Father would choose to have unemotional robots rather than children? And what Human possessing emotions isn't somewhat subject to them - for better or worse? Love and Hate, or Gratitude and Rage, Respectful Obedience and Disrespectful Disobedience are all possible responses; but He expects us to show Him: Love, Gratitude and Respect - because He fully deserves this!


You also said: " You clearly believe in a God who fails at getting his goal, pathetically. "

 

But, you only say this, because you yourself don't truly understand Yahweh. His goal has always been to create children for Himself; not servants! There is absolutely nothing that He needs from us, other than our ongoing familial relationship. What can we do, that He cannot do for Himself? Think about it.... If His Plan is to create children for Himself, then why would He make us merely emotionally unresponsive machines?

 

You also said: "Therefore you degrade the true God by your belittiling of him. "

 

In what way? It takes an even stronger man to possess true power without fully wielding it, than it does for him to tyrannically exercise it to the exclusion of all others! If Yahweh chooses to allow us Freewill, then He has shown us far more benevolence than our own human masters.... What human being has ever had the wisdom to let others decide for themselves, when it was in their own power to dictate the terms? Just look at your own human governments and you should see what I mean....

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