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What is the Mark of the Beast?  What do you think?

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Your remarks are all over the board and very difficult to understand.  What is the UMJC? 

Please do a better job of referencing your quotes so the reader has an inkling of what you are attempting to convey.  You're not very succinct in your posts and I'm not learning anything so far.

U.nion of M.essianic J.ewish C.ongregations

Now, Please who's saying I am going Tim Lahaye, or Hal Lindsey? Review please sends prior to contact, as I did, for I got the info for search under the discussions. 

Research in news, of both print and Net , is how I gained my info. 

Here is to which I reply. This is a cut and paste: 

Reply by Bob Miller yesterday

More Premillennial Dispensationalism bunk.  And all this talk about a rapture?  You sure you don't meanrupture???  Maybe you and Harold Camping should get together...

So . . . the UMJC are Premillennial Dispensationalists.  PDism has infiltrated many well meaning religious organizations, so I would be careful if I were you.  Quoting incorrect scriptural scholarship doesn't make it right and acceptable.  An error is an error regardless who prints it.

Bunk is always bunk.

Florin C Bodin said:

What is Premillenial Dispensationalism regarding the Apocalypsa?
I figure believers will suffer in the tribulation -- it is obvious.
What I like about the holy spirit at pentecost is each person understood in their own language.
The link was confusing in many ways.  The sentence structure was often from a foreign dialect and their visuals were not clear and consistent.  At the end they posted "For those who believe, No explanation is necessary.  For those who do not believe, No explanation is sufficient."
I really dislike the arrogant excuse for their pharisaic insiders club language and amateur presentation.    

See: "Jewish New Testment Commentary, By David H. Stern.

And no, I did NOT say nor imply what you place upon me. The consequences of speaking abruptly is sorrow for destoying faith in all you say. Please stop.

I think that some of the points brought up are very valid, though I think it is always much more fruitful to refrain from snide and personal slights. 

That being said, I agree that it is much more helpful to explain your point by quoting scripture or whatever other source you are referring to  rather than just saying I found  it on the web or the like. 

I also think that in order to have a discussion that is more beneficial to everyone following it, I think it is good to define terminology. Especially when we are discussing prophecy this is necessary. Words such as "last days" or "tribulation" are often thrown around based primarily upon religious conditioning, rather than scriptural definitions and understandings of these concepts. 

Also, it is very difficult to remove the inherited filters that cause us to automatically see things such as prophecy from a predetermined paradigm. Most people who are interested in prophecy come to the table with a premillennial filter, without ever really considering that there could be other alternatives. 

Therefore in order to see more accurately, we have understand terms and concepts consistently with biblical and 1st century understandings rather than modern denominational ones. 

Can we examine how the terms "last days," "tribulation," "beast," and "antichrist" are used in scripture? When are these time frames and what is their duration? Once we get some of those foundations more secure it will be easier to identify areas of our thinking that may not be completely sound. 

Good comments Keith.  I can make little to no sense of what AJ is presenting.
When it comes to 'end times' the biggest mistake is those who (mostly the PDers) get confused about the VERY end, because the scriptures in the NT point to a different 'end time' . . . that being the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and the beginning of the 'time of the gentiles.'  Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation speak about the destruction of Jerusalem, but the PDers do scriptural gymnastics to claim that these passages are about the very end.  The very end is described in the OT when all things will be renewed instead of the NT passages.

Again I appreciate your comments.

The very end is when there is a new creation.  It parallels the OT in reverse from Moses to Adam.  Messiah being crucified is the beginning of the new creation.

Thank you very much Bob. Hopefully people will at least become more aware that there are other prophetic viewpoints 

I used to be a premillennialist, but now I find myself somewhere out in no man's land. I find that I see things through a strange combination of a preterist and premillennial view put into some crazy blender. 

Most people that I have ever talked with seem to not notice that the three questions that the disciples asked in Matthew 24 were prompted by Y'shua prophesying the destruction of the temple. Most turn to Matthew 24 and read everything in a linear time line occurring ever in the future. We must consider why the  disciples asked "When will these things happen? It is apparent from the context that the primary reason for this question was that Y'shua had just told them the temple was going to be destroyed. Therefore, if Y'shua actually answered their question, it makes no sense to interpret the entirety of Matthew 24 in the future from us. 

Rather than the view that it was all fulfilled in 70ad or the view that everything is still to come, I believe that prophecy has been unfolding over a long period of time. 

Most, as you know see almost all of the "last days" prophecy being fulfilled in a 3 1/2 or 7 year time frame. To me this makes no real sense when taking all of the scripture together. When we consider terms such as "last days" for instance, this is a broad span of time. In Genesis 49, Jacob prophesies to his sons regarding what will befall them in the "last days." Those prophecies have been going on for a long time. In Acts 2, Peter quotes from Joel by saying "This is that which the prophet Joel spoke, saying In the last days......

Acts 2:16-17  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Furthermore we see this regarding the Messiah::

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Clearly Y'shua was born and carried out his ministry in the "last days." 

1 Peter 1:19-20  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Again it is evident that the Messiah appeared in the last days. I am not aware of any scripture that indicates that the "last days" are only 3 1/2 or 7 years long. It seems clear to me that we are in the last days, but we have been in the last days for at least 2,000 years. If the "last days" are much longer than just a few years, we must question if the other scenarios that we have been taught over and over hold water.

It is interesting that before answering the questions of his disciples, he first warned them of deception. "Let no man deceive you." Deceive us in what way? Deceive us on the subjects of -

  • When will these things happen?
  • What will be the sign of your coming?
  • And of the end of the age? 

What is the need in Y'shua's warning if the eschatological beliefs of around billion people are correct? When you really look at the typical prophecy scenarios, there is normally very little noticeable distinctions. 

Julian Goulbourne
First we need to understand what the Mark of YHWH is and then use that as a reference to explain what the Mark of the Beast is, because I am sure John was looking towards what the Mark of YHWH is. Lets go to Deut 6:3 The Shema..
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: [CIRCUMCISED HEART]
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Here we see the Mark of YHWH told to be put on the Right arm and on the Forehead, Whether people want to literally do this as the Jews did and still do using the Tefillin, which they bind on their right arm and put on their forehead
Or since the right arm represents strength and the forehead represents the MIND and the mind and the heart are the same. Should the Shema be made our strength "right arm" and in our minds and heart "fronlet between thine eyes, forehead" I also believe that when the heart is mentioned YHWH is making a reference to the children of Israel hearts being circumcised.
We need to get a deeper meaning of what the Shema means and Yahshua expounded the Shema and gave it more meaning when he was asked:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law/Torah?
Yahshua answered:
Mat 22:37 Yahshua said unto him, Thou shalt love the YHWH thy Elohim with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Meaning the Tanakh!

Why did Yahshua say on these two commandments hang the law and prophet, because of the Decalogue the Ten Commandments encompass the relationship between "Man and YHWH" and "Man and his neighbor"
The first four commandments represents mans relationship with YHWH "The Creator"
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the YHWH thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the YHWH thy Elohim in vain; for the YHWH will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the YHWH thy Elohim: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And the other six commandments represent mans relationship with his neighbor
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the YHWH thy Elohim giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet
I know there are 613 mitzvot (commandments)., but I believe those are not being discounted by making a reference to the Ten commandments. However, as the Ark of the Covenant is an example of YHWH throne where he sits and rules and the Tablets of stone with the Ten commandments on them where put in the Ark of the Covenant. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of YHWH throne and kingdom where he sits and rules..

Okay folks . . . the mark of the Beast of Revelation and the number designation using the gematria 666 refers to Nero who was the Roman Caesar persecuting the new band of believers who followed Yeshua. The writer of Revelation used a code which the Jews and readers would understand.  This 'Mark of the Beast' isn't some futuristic prediction that the world population will have to have 'magnetic chips' placed in or on their foreheads or any other form of mark which designates them as a follower of the Antichrist or some other Satanic character.
Revelation was written, contrary to popular rumor, in the early 60's AD BEFORE THE FALL OF JERUSALEM!!!  All the reader has to do is actually READ THE TEXT!  Rev. 1:1 - "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."  Why do supposedly smart people have trouble with the simple word 'soon'? Words mean things, right?  Soon means SOON!!!  For the slow to understand . . . according to the Merriam Webster dictionary is means 'immediately' 'without undue time lapse' 'in a prompt manner'.  Get the drift???  Rev 1:1 also says 'because the time is near!'  You have to change the meaning of words in order to claim that Revelation is still a futuristic prophecy. Of course, many so-called scholars write books and pile up hefty financial rewards because gullible believers allow their minds to be swayed by these scenes of cataclysmic events of tribulations and believers flying off into rapturous clouds.  However the fact is . . . get ready, this may be painful to some . . . the text does NOT support those images.
Its about time believers actually read the text and believe what it says - so much of what Rabbi Trimm teaches - without all the dramatics and made up stories especially from the Premillennial Dispensationalists who are nothing but Sensationalists.  Believe what the scriptures teach . . .  nothing more and nothing less, and as James says repeatedly . . . be good Bereans and study the scriptures to test the theologies being tossed about.   
One last thing . . . if you would like to see how Revelation played out . . . read 'The War of the Jews' by the historian Josephus.  You just might be surprised with all that happened in the years prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD with the heavenly and downright miraculous 'signs' and events that occurred and seen by both Jews and gentiles prior to the cataclysmic defeat and destruction of the Holy City.  It was the end of the age and a new one began only to end when all things culminate and Yeshua returns as He promised.  And anyone who says that he has it all mapped out and knows when these things will happen is delusional.  The problem is . . . he'll sell a boat-load of books to the gullible and unsuspecting who eat up this garbage because they fail to actually study the scriptures . . . unlike the good Bereans!!!

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