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Question for discussion:

Why is the tribe of Dan excluded from the 144,000?

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NOTE : JAMES 1.1 A servant of Elohim  MOSHIACH YESHUA TO THE SCATTERED 12 TRIBES.

12x12k=? 

So, there is no omission. we need our understanding bettered. Yoseph is in ,and Manassah counted twice

Yehuda is listed first, not Reuben

Levi Included , but recall not apportioned land.

Good explanatory/expository found in Stern's ," Jewish NewTestament Commentary."

Let Adoni do the headcount. 

The answer is pretty simple to this one.  Dan is left out of the Revelation of 144,000 because of a personage mentioned in Rev 13, ie the 'head' of the first beast, who is Nero, the author of both the Neronic persecutions of that day and the ruler who gave the order to the second beast (with two horns = Gens. Titus and Vespasian) to take the Romans legions to Israel via a pincer movement (Gamala and Alexandria) against Israel in the seven years (66 - 73) of the Jewish War, which is the subject that Revelation deals with.  At that time, there was a very influential book of prophecy originating in Greece that still exists today and can be found in the Jewish Pseudepigrapha known as Sibylline Oracles. This is a book of prophecies used by both pagans and Jews.  In that book, there is reference to Nero - that he is the beast and anti-Messiah - and that he ascended from the tribe of Dan (which is totally possible - Dan is a serpent).  Rev 13 gives the number of the name - in Arabic numerals it is 666, but in Greek and Hebrew it consists of three letters.  In Rev those are Chi, Xi and Sigma = 666.  Chi (X) and Sigma (C) is the ancient abbreviation of Christos. In between the two is the Xi, which I cant make on the keyboard, but it is a coiled serpent ξ - THERE I DID IT!  Denoting a messiah with the heart of the serpent; and of course, Neron Caesar in both Greek and Hebrew adds up to 666.  The prophecy from the Sybil was universally known, and had come from a prophetic source - an Essene who prophesied about Nero before he came to the fore - and this is why Dan doesn't make it on there.  Dan  is the tribe of Romans.  Sorry to take so long.

Revelation was written after Nero was dead. Nero ruled around 60 A.D. John wrote Revelation around 90 A.D. Nero didn't make every nation on Earth take a mark in order to buy and sell. No one has ever done that. So much of Revelation remains to be fulfilled.

Also, early Christians believed that the antichrist will be a Danite. He will be a leader in the restored land of Israel and win a war against Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. He will also rebuild the Temple. He will claim to be the real Messiah the Jews were waiting for. He will then enter the Temple and claim to be God and demand worship. At that point the tribulation will begin. I believe that will be the opening of the first seal. The antichrist is the rider on the white horse with a bow.

Christopher - recheck your dates.  Nero was there until 68.  One church father placed the date of writing to 96 because he wanted to keep the Revelation for the future. Is a 96 year old man going to write thie and circulkate it?  Rev 17 makes it clear when it was written, during the the reign of the 6th ruler in succession, which was Vespasian.  He ruled from 69 - 79.  Every nation in the ROman Empire had to have the mark in 68 AD, which had his name and date, which added up to 666.  Stephen Westcott proved this several years ago,  Yahshua said that all those who pierced him would see, and that those living would see, and that 'this generation will live to see it all.'  A prophectic generation is 40 years.  If you will read your Josephus Wars you will find that it is all there, inclduing the war in the sklies which around 2 million people witnessed,  The Antichrist is not found in the book of Revelation.  The first horse is simply 'conquest.'  Antichrist is only found in 1 & 2 John, who says that antichrist has already come!  There is so much evidence that it would overwhelm you, but not enough space here. If you read Rev 13, Nero has a head wound and came back.  This is exactly what happened - Nero came back 3 times.  And the one who helped him with th mortal woumd was Paul's friend Epaphroditus.  The mystery is history.  Keep studying, you're getting closer.  But don't study the false interpretations of these dispensationalists.  They know neither the scriptures, the history or the power of Elohim.  Stay well, my friend.

EARLY CHRISTIAN SAW DAN AS CONTRA MESSIANIC

PERHAPS THEN, AS NOW :The schisms, apostasia , zealous graspers for position,

even to setting discord amongst brethren. Then too, if we place all out for events prior, and  David is no good for his sin, and any seed is nixed from the redemption, even Yeshua. Please let us be careful.

You are making a grand assumption without providing evidence of either of your two points.  There is no evidence I know, and I am a historian, especially in your second assumption, which is totally subjective.  Give some references, citations, etc. I am hardly schismatic, but accept the classical position rather than that of the Jesuits, Plymouth Brethren, Ironside, Scofield and Time LaHaye.  I would ask you to be careful.  WIthout documentation, the one or two on here could be led astray.  Please get real.  Elohim is powerful.  You or I can't undo his plan no matter what we believe and we are all bound to be surprised anyway!



A.J. Hoffman said:

EARLY CHRISTIAN SAW DAN AS CONTRA MESSIANIC

PERHAPS THEN, AS NOW :The schisms, apostasia , zealous graspers for position,

even

to setting discord amongst brethren. Then too, if we place all out for events prior, and  David is no good for his sin, and any seed is nixed from the redemption, even Yeshua. Please let us be careful.

Danites are probably the Danish. Are there any famous Danish Jews anywhere? The antichrist is a particular person mentioned as the King of the North in Daniel 11. He is also the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians. I believe he is also the leader of the New World Order, consisting of 10 divisions of the Earth.

 Revelation is mostly about things that will happen just before Yashua returns to set up His Millenial Kingdom. The 3.5 years are the final 3.5 years on Earth before His return. Known as the Great Tribulation. The prophecies in Revelation are so catastrophic that they can't possibly have happened, at least most of them.

Rome was the legs of iron in the statue in Daniel. The legs of iron are not the final world empire. So that means SDA's and others who identify Rome as the "Beast" are wrong. The "Beast" empire is the feet and toes of iron and clay. The clay is not Rome. We will see what happens in the future.

I take exception, brother, to you saying that Revelation is to happen off in the future.  The historical witnesses of the first century assure us that Revelation is not about the future, but the past: the seven years of 55 - 73 in which bother Jerusalem and Rome are destroyed.  It's easy to say something is in the future.  That way you must provide no evidence.  But Revelation 1 reveals several times that it is to happen soon.  Soon is not thousands of years away.  Once witness after the other in the book tells us it is to happen immediately.  Yahshua said in 40 years.  Paul said immediately.  John said antichrist had already come.  And the priest, Josephus tells us exactly when Revelation did happed -  again 66 - 73.  Bother Revelatioon and Daniel have happened and are finished.  What we need to be looking for is Isatah 18, 19. Now that is happening now.  If anyhone wants to pursue this further, I will set forth proof after proof for you.

DANIEL TO NAME ONE

In the past was this.  So too,this is future,"By your seed,shall many nations be blessed." So,There is evidence of items which are of another time, and then reapplied. 

In the picture of time eternal, millinea are a blink of an eye or less. 

The fall of Jerusalem was noted by Josephus. He, being not a believer would not view this as would the discipled of Yeshua Moshiah.

Satan is in the world. this fallen angel has opposed Moshiach since his fall. 



Jay Hayes said:

You are making a grand assumption without providing evidence of either of your two points.  There is no evidence I know, and I am a historian, especially in your second assumption, which is totally subjective.  Give some references, citations, etc. I am hardly schismatic, but accept the classical position rather than that of the Jesuits, Plymouth Brethren, Ironside, Scofield and Time LaHaye.  I would ask you to be careful.  WIthout documentation, the one or two on here could be led astray.  Please get real.  Elohim is powerful.  You or I can't undo his plan no matter what we believe and we are all bound to be surprised anyway!



A.J. Hoffman said:

EARLY CHRISTIAN SAW DAN AS CONTRA MESSIANIC

PERHAPS THEN, AS NOW :The schisms, apostasia , zealous graspers for position,

even

to setting discord amongst brethren. Then too, if we place all out for events prior, and  David is no good for his sin, and any seed is nixed from the redemption, even Yeshua. Please let us be careful.

READ OF THOSE WHO HELPED DAVID. Shammah is not listed in 1 Chron. ,yet look at 2 Sam.23.10-12 w vv13-14.

Watch Adonai take care of what is needed. As when in texts, a copy of Torah found, then the need taken care of. The Dead Sea Scrolls did not lose their validity by being out of sight. Dan's part could be taken care of. Leviim not given land, but a better portion. Maybe Dan like this too.

First I want to say that I am new to both Nazarene Judaism, having been led from Chabad and saved from suicide to Christianity and anger at Judaism, then out of prison and Christianity to Messianic Judaism, then to more and more Torah observance  and finally Baruch Hashem in this last couple of weeks to the answer to my prayers the sect of the Nazarenes, and to true Torah so there is both a lot of different theologies running around in my head but also have a gift into understanding the Torah and sometimes with that all of these different theologies help. The name Dan means Judge and and when at Har Sinai Hashem spoke to our Patriarchs He Called them Sons but when they sinned with the Golden Calf as Tehillim 82 says "I have said: Ye are Elohim but ye will die like men and fall like one of the princes" this was also quoted by MOSHIACHA when the P'rushim were going to stone Him for calling Himself BEN ELOHIM but He by quoting this verse was quoting the whole Tehillat but from the point of view of this verse which is standard to Judaism but if you notice the entire Tehillat is a rebuke about those who were given the Judgements of ELOHIM but were abusing the Torah and their Court system to take advantage of the poor and elevate the rich, the word gods in the verse that MOSHIACHA quoted was a play on words because the word ELOHIM can also mean Judges. In MOSHIACHA's day they were doing the same thing hence the parable of Eliazar and the Rich Man and as well were;miss handling ;Law to the point that they were going to stone MOSHIACHA for healing on the SHABBAT;when they knew the overriding commands of the Shabbat, and so He invoked this Tehillat as a Judgement against those Judging Him incorrectly. When He told His talmidim that they now had the authority to forgive sins He was removing from the general Jew their authority over the Judgement seats of Moshe and the Beis Din, and showed after the Resurection He had the authority to do so when He said " All Authority in Heaven and Earth has been given unto Me" and so with the removal of Judging authority from the Jew so possibly the name Dan, and them either being included with Joseph as Ephraim is of Joseph and the whole northern Kingdom was called Ephraim at one point but probably more that in the diaspora they were absorbed in to the other tribes or lost all together as remember that MOSHIACHA had said that except the one he had not lost any but one that the scripture may be fulfilled and remember Scripture has multiple fulfillments so this might be one of those times but rest assured that in the ressurecton Dan will be there

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