Why we Should Fear the Muslim Brotherhood
I really do not understand your argument. Did I ever say that I believe everything "blindly"? Did I say that I find it good that children/innocents were killed.or are killed???? It is NOT OK, it is neither OK that you try to put this under my control !!! This is a kind of standard argumentation to silence others as soon as you dare to criticise Islam.
And please remember, as I criticise the religion of Islam, there are many good islamic persons living good lives, as there are bad christians or jews. But I guess I cannot make this clear to you.
Fact is that this passage is in the Torah, if it pleases you or not. You can believe that it comes from HaShem, then you will have to cope with it, or you believe that the Torah is a fake, then you have only yourself to rely on. Fact is that there has been a recent (2000 yrs or so) development in Judaism and Christitanity AWAY from violence (Remember Yeshuah?). This actually is something you can find out if you research the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings !
If violence comes from christians or jews it is individual and not based on thorough scripture (Remeber Yeshuah?). Islamic violence is always scripturally based (Muhammad was a warrior, remember Yathrib 527 CE ?)
In the following "some" scriptural examples. The amount really is significant. It goes on and on and on............
|Tabari VII:97||"The next morning, the Jews were in a state of fear on account of our attack upon the enemy of Allah. After the assassination, the Prophet declared, 'Kill every Jew.'"|
"Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."
There are Christian terrorist organizations in India and Pakistan. We don't hear much about them because they don't generate much support and tend to be smaller. It is not uncommon for Christian extremists in India for example to go through Hindu or Muslim communities, destroying property, beating people, etc. Just because the media doesn't pay attention to it doesn't mean it isn't real. As far as Jewish terrorist, there were indeed "zealots" in Palestine well before the state of Israel even existed. They routinely attacked Palestinian settlements, and that isn't so long ago. Christian history itself is replete with examples of terrorism against Muslims and Jews both. Modern wise we can look at the Sons of Freedom, The National Liberation Front of Tripura, the Manmasi National Christian Army, the Philangists of the South Lebanon Army, Iron Guard, and on and on. All self proclaimed Christian groups engaging in acts of terrorism in their respective countries. Just because the comfy, cozy American doesn't think "Calvinist", doesn't mean people in other parts of the world don't worry about Christian aggression.
We can start with your Old Testament, wherein not only do the Israelites kill the Amalekite soldiers responsible for attacking the Israelites, but that even women and children be killed. CHILDREN! Now of course you'll put a silly theological spin on it to make such atrocities acceptable to you, but to the humane and critical mind it is a horrible case of ethnic cleansing. We can go on from there to list numerous pogroms throughout history and example sin your Bible, but really, shouldn't you be researching this yourself rather than blindly accepting whatever you've been told? And would it do any good to engage you in such a discourse if you aren't open to the fact that perhaps such things as murdering children, ripping them from their mothers wombs, etc. are genocidal?
If violence comes from christians or jews it is individual and not based on thorough scripture
Incorrect. There are plenty of scriptures that have been used to justify murder by Jews and Christians through the centuries. The story of the Amalekites is just one. I have answered that one. Of course you can justify murder with everything if you want that. And you are right that it has been done. Still there is a development as I mentioned. It is just the question if one wants to understand and accept this development.
-As for "Yeshua", did he not also tell his followers "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword."? Classical argument. If you read the context you would clearly understand that it is a spiritual division.
-Did he not tell his followers after he "rose again" to buy swords?
"See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV). I believe that this has to be seen as a very limited self-defence as "anyone who uses a sword will die by the sword". Did you ever read of the apostles using the swords ?
-Did not the ancient Jewish followers of Jesus also fight side by side with other Jews against aggressors? No they did not, the fled to Pella as Yeshuah had told them to flee to the mountains. This was one of the things that caused the rift between rabbinical and nazarene judaism.
-Did you bother to take notice of the list of Christian terrorist organizations I ran through? Hardly "individual", but institutional. The New Testament context is clear, I know you cannot accept that.
At least two of the organizations enjoying the support of large denominations, such as the Russian Orthodox Church. What are their scriptural arguments ?
My point is this, you and others make blanket statements about how evil Islam is because it contains extremist elements, while ignoring your own history, the bloody genocides and murders ordered by the Biblical Deity, and the plethora of current terrorist organizations from your own "stream" of religion. When the light is shed on these things suddenly it is unreasonable, and lacking in context. I just find it very self serving. Well I think I do not ignore history as you mean. As I already stated, I see that you did not understand what I said about the difference between beliefs and what man makes out of this. I think that I have made it clear that evil deeds have been made also by Cristians and Jews.
And yes, I think Islam is a twisted ideology.
Actually I ask myself why you are in this forum? What is your take on the Torah and on "the biblical deity ?"
Well, actually there are different ways to understand this:
1-HaShem really did order this. It is possible that he destroyed different peoples and their children for ie attacking the Israelites or being unrepentant. Now if this is true, then it is one side of God. He has created us and he can destroy us if he so wants. Therefore we also have to fear him. And possibly Islam is permitted by God for certain reasons, but that does not make it true.
2-But, then we still have the New Testament Issue of development away from violence as I said. The followers of Yeshua shall leave the vengeance to the Lord.
2-It has been put into Torah by man, also possible. We dont know for sure.
"....., the bloody genocides and murders ordered by the Biblical Deity..."
Yes, ok, and I'm sure I could dig up an example of Buddhism terrorism if I looked hard enough as well.
The point is that Islam, or at least Shia Islam is very much more marked by and prone to violence than most other groups, including the early disciples of Yeshua (whom we can fairly presume to have been pacifists).
How absolutist does one want to be?
I'm sure I could dig up dirt on Gandhi, not that whatever it might be would be defining of him.
I mean, if I say "Charlie Manson was a killer" you could say "so was Moses", but what would be the point of that?
It's like implying they're the same, or something.
1. The early Jewish followers of Jesus would have fought. They chose not to for one reason; the declaration of bar Kochba as Messiah. Otherwise, the facts point to their aligning themselves with their fellow Jews.
2. Development Issue- The various Christian terrorist organizations as well as the fairly modern Jewish zealots who attacked Palestinian settlements before the state of Israel existed all point to a problem with your theory.
3. Swords- I have read it in context and sorry, it does not meet some mystical spiritual exegesis model. Just because we have no record of the apostles using them doe snot mean they never did. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
4. Theological Arguements for Christian Terrorism- I don't know them so I can't ask. However, they do substantiate it from scripture, just as you defend the slaughters mentioned in the O.T.
5. Islam- If Islam is a "twisted theology" by virtue of the commands to do violence, then you implicate the O.T. as well. Thus your foundation crumbles. You cannot say such violence is okay for your faiths patriarchs, but wrong for anothers. Consistency is the issue.
6. My Presence Here- I'm here to engage in discussion. I also hold a Doctorate in Divinity Studies and Comparative Religion. Thus this forum is of interest to me whether I personally accept your views on God or not.