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Why we Should Fear the Muslim Brotherhood

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I really do not understand your argument. Did I ever say that I believe everything "blindly"? Did I say that I find it good  that children/innocents were killed.or are killed???? It is NOT OK, it is neither OK that you try to put this under my control !!! This is a kind of standard argumentation to silence others as soon as you dare to criticise Islam.


And please remember, as I criticise the religion of Islam, there are many good islamic persons living good lives, as there are bad christians or jews. But I guess I cannot make this clear to you.


Fact is that this passage is in the Torah, if it pleases you or not. You can believe that it comes from HaShem, then you will have to cope with it, or you believe that the Torah is a fake, then you have only yourself to rely on.  Fact is that there has been a recent (2000 yrs or so) development in Judaism and Christitanity AWAY from violence (Remember Yeshuah?). This actually is something you can find out if you research the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings !

If violence comes from christians or jews it is individual and not based on thorough scripture (Remeber Yeshuah?). Islamic violence is always scripturally based (Muhammad was a warrior, remember Yathrib 527 CE ?)

In the following "some" scriptural examples. The amount really is significant. It goes on and on and on............

Tabari VII:97  "The next morning, the Jews were in a state of fear on account of our attack upon the enemy of Allah. After the assassination, the Prophet declared, 'Kill every Jew.'" 

"Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?' Say: 'Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine."
Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."
Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."
Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."
Ishaq:250 "The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised."
Qur'an 59:14 "The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell."
Qur'an 2:96
"We will not remove a Jew from the punishment. They know the shameful thing that awaits them."
Qur'an 4:55

"Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!"

Bukhari:V2B23N414 "The Prophet in his fatal illness said, "Allah cursed Jews and Christians because they took their Prophets' graves as places for praying.'"

"When Allah's Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woolen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, 'That is so! Allah's curse be on Jews and Christians.'"

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

"Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."

Bukhari:V4B52N220  "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'" 
Qur'an:8:12  "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Qur'an:8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."
Ishaq:326 "If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah's enemies."
Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."


Zadkiel said:


              There are Christian terrorist organizations in India and Pakistan. We don't hear much about them because they don't generate much support and tend to be smaller. It is not uncommon for Christian extremists in India for example to go through Hindu or Muslim communities, destroying property, beating people, etc. Just because the media doesn't pay attention to it doesn't mean it isn't real. As far as Jewish terrorist, there were indeed "zealots" in Palestine well before the state of Israel even existed. They routinely attacked Palestinian settlements, and that isn't so long ago. Christian history itself is replete with examples of terrorism against Muslims and Jews both. Modern wise we can look at the Sons of Freedom, The National Liberation Front of Tripura, the Manmasi National Christian Army, the Philangists of the South Lebanon Army, Iron Guard, and on and on. All self proclaimed Christian groups engaging in acts of terrorism in their respective countries. Just because the comfy, cozy American doesn't think "Calvinist", doesn't mean people in other parts of the world don't worry about Christian aggression.




     We can start with your Old Testament, wherein not only do the Israelites kill the Amalekite soldiers responsible for attacking the Israelites, but that even women and children be killed. CHILDREN! Now of course you'll put a silly theological spin on it to make such atrocities acceptable to you, but to the humane and critical mind it is a horrible case of ethnic cleansing. We can go on from there to list numerous pogroms throughout history and example sin your Bible, but really, shouldn't you be researching this yourself rather than blindly accepting whatever you've been told? And would it do any good to engage you in such a discourse if you aren't open to the fact that perhaps such things as murdering children, ripping them from their mothers wombs, etc. are genocidal?

I have answered your text below.
Zadkiel said:

If violence comes from christians or jews it is individual and not based on thorough scripture


Incorrect. There are plenty of scriptures that have been used to justify murder by Jews and Christians through the centuries. The story of the Amalekites is just one. I have answered that one. Of course you can justify murder with everything if you want that. And you are right that it has been done. Still there is a development as I mentioned. It is just the question if one wants to understand and accept this development.


-As for "Yeshua", did he not also tell his followers "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword."? Classical argument.  If you read the context you would clearly understand that it is a spiritual division.

-Did he not tell his followers after he "rose again" to buy swords?

"See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV). I believe that this has to be seen as a very limited self-defence as "anyone who uses a sword will die by the sword". Did you ever read of the apostles using the swords ?

-Did not the ancient Jewish followers of Jesus also fight side by side with other Jews against aggressors? No they did not, the fled to Pella as Yeshuah had told them to flee to the mountains. This was one of the things that caused the rift between rabbinical and nazarene judaism.

-Did you bother to take notice of the list of Christian terrorist organizations I ran through? Hardly "individual", but institutional. The New Testament context is clear, I know you cannot accept that.

At least two of the organizations enjoying the support of large denominations, such as the Russian Orthodox Church. What are their scriptural arguments ?


My point is this, you and others make blanket statements about how evil Islam is because it contains extremist elements, while ignoring your own history, the bloody genocides and murders ordered by the Biblical Deity, and the plethora of current terrorist organizations from your own "stream" of religion. When the light is shed on these things suddenly it is unreasonable, and lacking in context. I just find it very self serving. Well I think I do not ignore history as you mean. As I already stated, I see that you did not understand what I said about the difference between beliefs and what man makes out of this. I think that I have made it clear that evil deeds have been made also by Cristians and Jews.

And yes, I think Islam is a twisted ideology.

Actually I ask myself why you are in this forum? What is your take on the Torah and on "the biblical deity ?"

Well, actually there are different ways to understand this:

1-HaShem really did order this. It is possible that he destroyed different peoples and their children for ie attacking the Israelites or being unrepentant. Now if this is true, then it is one side of God. He has created us and he can destroy us if he so wants. Therefore we also have to fear him. And possibly Islam is permitted by God for certain reasons, but that does not make it true.

2-But, then we still have the New Testament Issue of development away from violence as I said. The followers of Yeshua shall leave the vengeance to the Lord.

2-It has been put into Torah by man, also possible. We dont know for sure.


Zadkiel said:

"....., the bloody genocides and murders ordered by the Biblical Deity..."

Yes, ok, and I'm sure I could dig up an example of Buddhism terrorism if I looked hard enough as well.

The point is that Islam, or at least Shia Islam is very much more marked by and prone to violence than most other groups, including the early disciples of Yeshua (whom we can fairly presume to have been pacifists).

How absolutist does one want to be?
I'm sure I could dig up dirt on Gandhi, not that whatever it might be would be defining of him.

I mean, if I say "Charlie Manson was a killer" you could say "so was Moses", but what would be the point of that?
It's like implying they're the same, or something.

Congratulations. You have proven to yourself that your view is right. I strongly disagree on all points. Apparently you choose to ignore the facts I gave you. You keep to your view that"they would have fought..."etc. Well that is pure speculation and serves your  agenda. You choose as well to ignore nowaday evidence that we see around us. If you look for the "perfect" ideology you can look for a very long time, study for a very long time. In the end it is your personal choice and walk that decides.

Zadkiel said:

1. The early Jewish followers of Jesus would have fought. They chose not to for one reason; the declaration of bar Kochba as Messiah. Otherwise, the facts point to their aligning themselves with their fellow Jews.


2. Development Issue- The various Christian terrorist organizations as well as the fairly modern Jewish zealots who attacked Palestinian settlements before the state of Israel existed all point to a problem with your theory.


3. Swords- I have read it in context and sorry, it does not meet some mystical spiritual exegesis model. Just because we have no record of the apostles using them doe snot mean they never did. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


4. Theological Arguements for Christian Terrorism- I don't know them so I can't ask. However, they do substantiate it from scripture, just as you defend the slaughters mentioned in the O.T.


5. Islam- If Islam is a "twisted theology" by virtue of the commands to do violence, then you implicate the O.T. as well. Thus your foundation crumbles. You cannot say such violence is okay for your faiths patriarchs, but wrong for anothers. Consistency is the issue.


6. My Presence Here- I'm here to engage in discussion. I also hold a Doctorate in Divinity Studies and Comparative Religion. Thus this forum is of interest to me whether I personally accept your views on God or not.

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