Nazarene Space

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Do you think this means that the times and laws are changed by the evil one in the 3 1/2 years, or do you think the times and laws have already been changed by him and the 3 1/2 years are when his change is taken back from him and the times and laws restored?

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I agree that Emperor Constantine did change the time of the Sabbath to Sun-Day because he was a sun worshiper. This occured at the Council of Nicea in which the Nicean Creed comes from during the mid-fourth century. He wanted a "universal" church and universal beliefs. This is when the Catholic church originated and popes were established. Whoever holds the office of the Pope is the evil one, who claims to be G_d on earth and forgives men's sins (blasphemy). As for the law, they ripped out the second commandment and took the tenth and divided it into two separate commandments. So the time and the law has been changed for 360yr + 360yrs + 360yrs + 180yrs = 1260 yrs, from 538 a.d. to 1798 a.d. = 3 1/2 prophetic yrs. (1000yrs = 1 day) the time that Rome ruled.
I grew up very conservative Adventist, and I understand that most people don't want to believe that prophecy has been fulfilled and we are just waiting for His return. I guess that is why "the whole world is deceived, except for the very elect" and are not ready at the end/beginning. :)

My days ended with the Adventists when I was told not to return by the Pastor. We started as an outreach with 5 people and I walked every street of the city and county until there were about 250 people who attended. We had to move to a new building and the main church offered to help if we had "all" our members sign over to there registery since we officially weren't 7th day legit. This caused a split in the church and half the members left. I continued to do my bible-studies with newcomers and grew to about 500 when the President came to the church in his cadillac and I decided not to participate. I had too much influence with the members and the Pastor preached from the pulpit that I was a wolf in sheeps clothing. I sat there horrified. Afterward I was asked to leave and was disfellowshipped. Since then, I have been asked to leave 2 churches. One for raising my hands during praise and worship. Another because I was to controversial (wasn't Yeshua?).
Antway, I seek fellowship thru the computer with groups. So far, I haven't found a home because I do not fit into the mainstream Christianity because of my belief about the law and trinity. I hope I get to stay here for a while chatting with people like yourself.
As for the past, history repeats itself and yes, nobody pays any attention. When will man learn from his mistakes instead of repeating them? Hate to hear about your son and his wife but I have a couple of kids who don't listen either because they are too busy. Same story. but they do go to church occasionally.
Yeh I guess we are off topic, so if everyone knows their history books, they will agree with Rome changing the time of Sabbath and the law by removing the 2nd commandment.
Do you think the deception then is a simple as switching the Sabbath from one day to another? What about the feast days. Are they kept on the correct day by the Rabbinical calendar according to the Torah? Which calendar do you keep and why?
Thank you Lyle for correcting me . I apologize for the mistake, I meant the fourth, but I get up pretty early to see the sunrise and thank G-d for the day. Sometimes 3 a.m. or at least by 5 a.m. These posts don't have an edit so correction is impossible. Back on track though, I didn't understand your comment about not being part of the "big ones". Changing the Sabbath to Sunday is part of the "10" and removing the second about "idols" and splitting the 10th is also. Both are part of the 10 by my understanding, but explain to me if I'm wrong. Bowing to idols by Catholics is a description of their praying to statues of saints. Change of the Law. Changing the "time" of Sabbath is also changing the 4th commandment as scripture states. Correct me if I'm wrong again, but I see both commandments in this prophecy of changing the "time and the Law". Jokingly I haven't heard from the Vatican, only the Word of G-d.

Marion Lyle Lathem said:
second commandment.....seems your a tad off there...Paula. Gentle kidding.. your thinking the fourth I believe, and as far as changing the calender.. not covered by the 10 big ones I guess.. but this is big time prophecy and very important and how could it be off topic. Did the Vatican call or something..? Kidding.. seriously this is serious meat for the Bible Student. Lyle
Very good question, let me try and explain my views. The Law spoken about in Daniel 7:25 is referring to The Royal Law which is very different from the feast days and lifestyle laws. I hope you understand what I mean between the difference in Mose's written laws and the "10" written by G-d's own finger in stone. The calender is the same as in Christ's day, I checked with the local library on that one. It was changed but changed back. Some differnces in the laws are as following...

"G-d's Law" "Moses' laws"
"Law of the Lord" "law of Moses"
Is. 5:24 Luke 2:22, 1 Cor. 9:9
"Stone" "Book"
Ex. 31:18;32:16 2 Chron. 25:12, Deu. 31:24
"Inside the Ark" "the side of the Ark"
Deu. 10:2,5 Deu. 31:26
"Points out Sin" "Added b/c of Sin"
Rom. 7:7; 3:20 Gal. 3:19
"Not Grevious" "Contrary to us"
1 John 5:3 Col. 2:14
"Royal Law" "Law contained in ordinances"
James 2:8 Eph. 2:15
"Judges all men" "Judges no man"
James 2:10-12 Col. 2: 14-16
"Spiritual" "Carnal"
Rom. 7:14 Heb. 7:16
"Perfect" "Made nothing perfect"
Ps. 19:7 Heb. 7:19

I hope this clarifies my position on the differences in law. And I don't think it's a simple thing to change G-d's Law and decieve the world with it. G-d is very, very specific about the 4th commandment and removing the commandment on not worshipping idols b/c of praying to saints is idoltry."Big Ones" as Lyle puts it.

Pearl said:
Do you think the deception then is a simple as switching the Sabbath from one day to another? What about the feast days. Are they kept on the correct day by the Rabbinical calendar according to the Torah? Which calendar do you keep and why?
What is Messianic Gentile? Are you Torah observant? Why or why not?
Marion, you write - Pearl you are right. Until now, I have only asked questions for the most part. I must
disagree with some of what has been said. Moses did not write the law; G-d did. I love the Torah and wish to observe and do all His commandments. Every choice, what will I wear, what will I eat, and what will I do is guided by the Torah.

Have you been throught the six Free - download foundation lessons ( ?
Dear Pearl,

I apologize if I mis-spoke about the Law being written by Moses. I understand what you mean by "G-d did", of course the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit. I was trying to say that the "10" were written in stone while the rest were written on paper. I remember an old saying about "being written on stone" that it's permenant and that is what I meant. I love the Word of G-d, all of it and (as Lyle said) to observe the "10" especially. I agree with Lyle's statement, "Your so right, if we were determined and really set out to keep the 10, we would not need any other law or ordinances at all." I also do not find it difficult to keep them...literally and spiritually. I was trying to show the differences of the "10" and the rest of the Torah. I believe we should keep "all" G-d's Word, but especially the "10".
I just joined this group and have not been thru the first six lessons and did not know there were lessons for free. Thank you for letting me know, I will inquire about recieving them. I love to study G-d's Word and have been accused of being a "Jew" like it was something "bad". I would be proud to be part of the "lost tribes".
You stated that you disagreed with "some" of what's been said. If you would clarify "what" statements you disagree with I would try and explain my position. I appreciate input and conversing about the Word. I don't understand why some people get so upset and angry when they disagree about interpretation of prophecy. If I am mistaken about something, I try to correct myself immediately. I am open-minded and encourage participation in discussions, even when people have opposite views. I hope I am not getting too off topic about Daniel 7:25, I just wanted to answer your questions.
Pearl asked, "Do you think this means that the times and laws are changed by the evil one in the 3 1/2 years, or do you think the times and laws have already been changed by him and the 3 1/2 years are when his change is taken back from him and the times and laws restored? "

A clue as to who the "beast" is, is the time period which G-d gave for its reign before it receives its "deadly wound". It would reign for 1260 years. Using the day for a year principle found in Ezekeil 4:6 and Numbers 14:34, we see that this power would rule for 1260 years before receiving its "deadly wound". When we look at the beast power, we see that this is exactly what has happened. For G-d to repeat this time period 7 times like this shows the importance which He places on it. The number seven has a spiritual meaning which is spiritual completeness or spiritual perfection. Scripture show that Christ referred to His words as spiritual.
The verses in sequence are...Rev. 11:2 and 13:5 describe this power as reigning for 42 months (42 months with 30 days to a month contain 1260 days.)...Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, and Rev. 12:14 describe the beast as reigning 3 1/2 "times", or years. ( 3 1/2 prophetic years also contain 1260 days.)...Rev. 11:3 and 12:6 describe this persecuting power as reigning 1260 days. All 7 texts describe this power as reigning 1260 prophetic days which is 1260 literal years.
From 538 A.D. the Papacy ruled for exactly 1260 years, until 1798 when the Pope was taken prisoner. Napoleon's general, Berthier, captured the Pope and took him to France. In 1929, the Italian government recognized Vatican City as an independent state. Once again, the Pope was king. The deadly wound was healed.
I believe that the change in the times and the laws have already taken place, the 3 1/2 years are when the time will be taken back from the anti-christ and the evil one will not have dominion over us anymore.













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