Nazarene Space

MISHNA:

Must the Goyim be circumcised according to the custom of the Torah to be saved?

Shim'on said: Men, our brothers, you know that from the first days from my
mouth, Eloah chose that the Goyim should hear the Word of the Good News and
Trust. And Eloah, who knows what is in hearts, gave testimony concerning them,
and gave to them the Ruach HaKodesh as [he did] to us. And he made no
distinction between them and us, because he purified their hearts by trust. And
now, why do you
tempt Eloah so that you place a yoke upon the necks of the talmidim, which
neither our fathers, nor we, were able to bear? But by the favor of our Adon
Yeshua the Messiah, we believe to have Life, like them.

Paul and Bar Nabba, recounted everything that Eloah had done by their hands:
signs, and mighty deeds, among the Goyim.

Ya'akov said, Men, our brothers: hear me. Shim'on recounted to you how Eloah
began to choose, from the Goyim, a people for His Name. And to this the words of
the prophets agree, like that which is written: After these things I will return
and set up the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild that
which has fallen of it and I will raise it up, So that the remnant of men might
seek YHWH, and, all the Goyim, on whom My Name is called, says YHWH who made all
these things. The works of Eloah are known from old. (Amos 9:11-12)

Because of this I say, They should not trouble those, who from the Goyim, have
turned toward Eloah. But let it be sent to them, that they should separate
[themselves] from the uncleanness of that which is sacrificed [to idols], and
from sexual immorality, and from that which is strangled, from blood. And that
what is undesirable to yourself, you do not do to others.> For Moshe, from the
first generations, had proclaimers in every city; in the synagogues, who read
him on every Sabbath.

And they wrote a letter by their hands [saying] thus:
The emissaries, and elders, and brothers, to those who are in Antioch, and in
Syria, and in Cilicia; brothers who are from the Goyim: shalom.
It has been heard by us, that men from us, have gone out: and, disturbed you
with words and have upset your nefeshot, while saying that you must be
circumcised
and observe the Torah, which we did not command them.
Because of this, all of us while gathered together purposed, and chose men and
sent to you with our beloved Paul and Bar Nabba,
Men who have committed themselves, on behalf of the Name of our Adon Yeshua the
Messiah. And we have sent with them Y'hudah, and Sila, who will tell you these
same
[things] by speech.

It is the will of the Ruach HaKodesh and also of us that a greater
burden should not be placed on you, outside of those things that are
necessary. That you should abstain from:

1. That which is sacrificed to idols,
2. And from blood
3. And from that which is strangled
4. And from sexual immorality.
<5. And that what is undesirable to yourself, you do not do to others.>

That as you keep yourself from these, you will do well.
Be steadfast in our Adon.
(Acts 15:1-29) <> portion found only in the Western text type.


GEMARA:

How are we to understand "Goyim" here?
Here the reference is to the Ger Toshav, a repentant Gentile.
And who is a Ger Toshav?
Rabbi Meir says:
"Any [Gentile] who takes upon himself in the presence of three haberim not to
worship idols." (b.Avodah Zarah 64b)
The Pharisaic Sages declare:
"Any [Gentile] who takes upon himself the seven precepts which the sons of Noah
undertook; and still others maintain: These do not come within the category of a
Ger Toshav; but who is a Ger Toshav? A proselyte who eats of animals not
ritually slaughtered, i.e., he took upon himself to observe all the precepts
mentioned in the Torah apart from the prohibition of [eating the flesh of]
animals not ritually slaughtered. We may leave such a man alone with wine, but
we may not deposit wine in his charge even in a city where the majority of
residents are Israelites. We may, however, leave him alone with wine even in a
city where the majority of residents are heathens; and his oil is like his
wine.' How can it enter your mind to say that his oil is like his wine; can oil
become nesek! [The wording must be amended to] his wine is like his oil, but in
every other respect he is like a heathen." (b.Avodah Zarah 64b)
Rabban Simeon says:
"His wine is yen nesek. Another version [of Rabban Simeon's statement] is: `It
is allowed to be drunk [by Israelites].' At all events it teaches that `in every
other respect he is like a heathen.' For what practical purpose [is this
mentioned]? Is it not that he can annul an idol in the same manner as an
idolater?" (b.Avodah Zarah 64b)
R. Nahman b. Isaac said:
"No; it is in connection with his power to transfer or renounce ownership; as it
has been taught: An apostate Israelite who publicly observes the Sabbath may
renounce his ownership, but if he does not observe the Sabbath publicly he may
not renounce his ownership because [the Rabbis] said: An Israelite may transfer
or renounce his ownership, whereas with a heathen this can only be done by
renting [his property]. In what way? — [One Israelite] can say to [another
Israelite], `My ownership is acquired by you; my ownership is renounced in your
favour,' and the latter has thereby acquired [the property] without the
necessity of a formal assignment. (b.Avodah Zarah 64b)
The International Nazarene Beit Din Says:
"Any from the Goyim who takes upon himself the seven precepts of Noach."

What is signified by the phrase "a greater burden should not be placed
upon you"? Why not simply "no other burden should be placed upon you"?

It is because the pronouncement (of Acts 15) only outlined the greatest limits
of
the obligations of a Gentile, but it was not intended as an exhaustive
list. Else why not include that they must abstain from murder? Was
this ruling permitting Gentiles to murder? May it never be. Instead
we are to understand this ruling as an abbreviation of the obligations
Gentiles have under the Noachide Covenant as Sons of Noah.

The Pharisaic Rabbis taught:
"Seven precepts were the sons of Noah commanded:
justice; to bless the name, idolatry; adultery; bloodshed; robbery; and eating
flesh cut from a living animal." (b.Sanhedrin 56b)

R. Hanania b. Gamaliel said:
"Also not to partake of the blood drawn from a living animal.
R. Hidka added emasculation.
R. Simeon added sorcery.
R. Jose said:
"The heathens were prohibited everything that is mentioned in the section on
sorcery. viz., There shall not be found among you any one, that maketh his son
or daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer
of times, or an
enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a
wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto
the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them
[sc. the heathens in Canaan] out from before thee. Now, [the Almighty] does not
punish without first prohibiting.
R. Eleazar added the forbidden mixture [in plants and animals]: now, they are
permitted to wear garments of mixed fabrics [of wool and linen] and sow diverse
seeds together; they are forbidden only to hybridize heterogeneous animals and
graft trees of different
kinds." (b.Sanhedrin 56b)

The International Nazarene Beit Din Says:

These are the Seven Precepts of Noah:

1. Justice – That which is hateful to yourself, do not do to others.
2. Blessing the Name
3. Against Idolatry – This law is clarified so as to even exclude
partaking of that which is sacrificed [to idols].
4. Against Sexual Immorality
5. Against Shedding Blood (murder)
6. Against Theft
7. Against Eating the Limb of a Living Animal and eating Blood

Whence do we know the seven precepts of Noah? —
R. Johanan answered: The Scripture says: `And the Adonai YHWH commanded the man
saying, of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat.' (Gen. 2:16)
And [He] commanded, refers to [the observance of] justice, and thus it is
written, `For I know him, that he will command his children and his household
after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and
judgment.'(Gen. 18:19)
Adonai-is [a prohibition against] blasphemy, and thus it is written, and he that
blasphemeth the name of YHWH, he shall surely be put to death.(Lev. 24:16)
YHWH-is [an injunction against] idolatry, and thus it is written, Thou shall
have no other gods before Me. (Ex. 20:3) The man-refers to bloodshed [murder],
and thus it is written, Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.
(Gen. 9:6) `Saying'-refers to adultery, and thus it is written, They say, If a
man put away his wife, and she go from him, and became another man's.(Jer. 3:1)
Of every tree of the garden-but not of robbery. You maye freely eat-but not
flesh cut from a living animal.

When R. Isaac came, he taught a reversed interpretation. And He commanded-refers
to idolatry; ELOHIM to social law. Now `ELOHIM' may rightly refer to social
laws, as it is written, And the master of the house shall be brought unto elohim
[i.e., the judges]. (Ex. 22:7) But how can `and He commanded' connote a
prohibition of idolatry? —

R. Hisda and R. Isaac b. Abdimi-one cited the verse, They have turned aside
quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten
calf, etc.(Ex. 32:8) And the other cited, Ephraim is oppressed and broken in
judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.(Hosea 5:11) Wherein
do they differ? — In respect of a heathen who made an idol but did not worship
it: On the view [that the prohibition of idolatry is derived from] they have
made them a molten calf, guilt is incurred as soon as the idol is made [even
before it is worshipped]; but according to the opinion that it is from, because
he willingly walked after the commandment, there is no liability until the
heathen actually follows and worships it.

Raba objected: Does any scholar maintain that a heathen is liable to punishment
for making an idol even if he did not worship it? Surely it has been taught:
With respect to idolatry, such acts for which a Jewish Court decrees sentence of
death [on Jewish delinquents] are forbidden to the heathen; but those for which
a Jewish Court inflicts no capital penalty on Jewish delinquents are not
forbidden to him. Now what does this exclude? Presumably the case of a heathen
who made an idol without worshipping it? R. Papa answered: No. It excludes the
embracing and kissing of idols. Of which idols do you say this? Is it of those
whose normal worship is in this manner; but in that case he is surely liable to
death? — Hence it excludes the embracing and kissing of idols which are not
usually worshipped thus.

`Justice.' Were then the children of Noah bidden to observe these? Surely it has
been taught: The Israelites were given ten precepts at Marah, seven of which had
already been accepted by the children of Noah, to which were added at Marah
Justice ,the Sabbath, and honoring one's parents; `Justice,' for it is written,
There [sc. at Marah] he made for them a statute and a MISHPAT (judgment) (Ex.
15:25); `the Sabbath and honoring one's parents'. for it is written, As the YHWH
your Elohim commanded you! (Deut. 5:16) —

R. Nahman replied in the name of Rabbah b. Abbuha: The addition at Marah was
only in respect of an assembly, witnesses, and formal admonition. If so, why
say `to which were added Justice'? —

But Raba replied thus: The addition was only in respect of the laws of fines.
(Deut. 22:19,29) But even so, should it not have been said, `additions were made
in Justice'? —

But R. Aha b. Jacob answered thus: The Baraita informs us that they were
commanded to set up law courts in every district and town. But were not the sons
of Noah likewise commanded to do this? Surely it has been taught: Just as the
Israelites were ordered to set up law courts in every district and town, so were
the sons of Noah likewise enjoined to set up law courts in every district and
town! —

But Raba answered thus: The author of this Baraita [which states that Justice
were added at Marah] is a Tanna of the School of Manasseh, who omitted Justice
and blasphemy [from the list of Noachian precepts] and substituted emasculation
and the forbidden mixture [in plants, ploughing. etc.]. For a Tanna of the
School of Manasseh taught: The sons of Noah were given seven precepts. viz.,
[prohibition of] idolatry, adultery, murder, robbery, flesh cut from a living
animal, emasculation and forbidden mixtures.

R. Judah said: Adam was prohibited idolatry only, for it is written, And the
Adonai YHWH commanded Adam.

R. Judah b. Batyra maintained: He was forbidden blasphemy too. Some add Justice.
With whom does the following statement of Rab Judah in the name of Rab agree:
viz., [Elohim said to Adam,] I am Elohim, do not curse Me; l am Elohim, do not
exchange Me for another; I am Elohim, let My fear be upon you? — This agrees
with the last mentioned [who adds Justice to the list].
(b.San. 56b)

Now, what is the standpoint of the Tanna of the School of Manasseh? If he
interprets the verse, And Adonai YHWH commanded etc. [as interpreted above], he
should include these two [Justice and blasphemy] also, and if he does not,
whence does he derive the prohibition of the rest? — In truth, he does not
accept the interpretation of the verse, `And the Adonai YHWH commanded etc., but
maintains that each of these [which he includes] is separately stated: Idolatry
and adultery for it is written, The earth also was corrupt before Elohim (Gen.
6:2); and a Tanna of the School of R. Ishmael taught: Wherever corruption is
mentioned, it must refer to immorality and idolatry.

`Immorality.' as it is written, for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the
earth. (Prov. 30:19) `Idolatry,' for it is written, Lest ye corrupt yourselves
and make you a graven image, etc. (Deut. 4:16) And the other teacher [who
deduces this from the verse, and Adonai YHWH commanded etc.]? He maintains that
this verse [sc. the earth also etc.] merely describes their way of living.

`Bloodshed', as it is written, Whoso sheddeth man's blood, etc.(Gen. 9:6) And
the other? — This verse [he will maintain] merely teaches the manner of
execution.

Theft, for it is written, As the wild herbs have I given you all things; upon
which R. Levi commented: as the wild herbs, but not as the cultivated herbs. And
the other? — He will hold that this verse is written to permit animal flesh,
[but not to prohibit robbery].

Flesh cut from the living animal, as it is written, But flesh with the life
thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Gen. 9:4) And the other?
— He may hold that this verse teaches that flesh cut from live reptiles is
permitted.

Emasculation, for it is written, Bring forth abundantly in the earth, and
multiply therein. And the other? — He may regard this merely as a blessing.

Forbidden mixture, as it is said, Of fowls after their kind. (Gen. 6:20) And the
other? — He will maintain that this was merely for the sake of mating.
(b.San. 56b-57a)

Zakan Ingalls said:
"Noach and his sons knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. Since
only one male and one female of each unclean animal were in the Ark (Gen. 7:2),
if we hold that Genesis 9:2 would have allowed Noach and his sons to eat unclean
meat, then eating one of the unclean animals destroys that animal type forever
and negates YHWH's own purpose in preserving that animal type from the flood.
Further, if Adam is made in the image of Elohim (Genesis 1:27, 9:6, Ya'aqov
3:9), Noach's offering of only clean animals (Genesis 8:20) indicates that only
clean animals should be on the tables of a Noachide."

But the International Nazarene Beit Din said:
"In the days of Noach the clean animals were those suitable for offering to YHWH, for at the time YHWH referred to these as "clean" and "unclean" (Gen. 7:2; 8:20) only vegetable matter was kosher (Gen. 1:29) and only after this time did any animals at all become kosher (Gen. 9:3).

The International Nazarene Beit Din Says:
"From where do we derive the Seven precepts of Noach"?
Justice – For we read "Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed…"
(Gen. 9:6)
Blessing the Name- For the serpent blasphemed YHWH by questioning his word when
he said "has Elohim said…?" (Gen. 3:1) Also we read "Whoso sheds man's blood, by
man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of Elohim, made He man." (Gen.
9:6) murder is forbidden because it destroys an Image of Elohim.
Idolatry- For we read in the Torah that man sought to make himself Elohim when
the Serpent told him "you shall be as Elohim, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:5)
Sexual Immorality – For we read that man was to be joined "male and female"
that the woman was told "your desire shall be to your husband" (Gen. 3:16) and
that man's sexual relations were to be fruitful and result in reproduction as we
read "be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 9:1,7). Moreover we read of the fallen
angels who came to man, "the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men, that they
were fair. And they took them wives, whomsoever they chose…. the sons of Elohim
came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. …And YHWH saw
that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,…" (Gen. 6:1-5).
Against Shedding of Blood. – For we read that YHWH judged Cain for killing Able
(Gen. 4) also we read "Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed:
for in the image of Elohim, made He man." (Gen. 9:6)
Against Theft – For we read in the Torah "But of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil, you shall not eat of it." (Gen. 2:17) and again we read "And when
the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the
eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the
fruit thereof and did eat. And she gave also unto her husband with her, and he
did eat. (Gen. 3:6) thus man's first sin was an act of theft.
Against Eating the Limb of a Living Animal and eating Blood – For we read "Every
moving thing that lives shall be for food for you; as the green herb have I
given
you all. Only flesh with the life thereof--which is the blood thereof--shall you
not eat." (Gen. 9:3-4)


How are we to understand "you will do well"?

Our sages presupposed that these Gentiles would be going to synagogue
on Sabbath and learning the Torah of Moses (Acts 15:21). The Ger Toshav, by
definition, dwells among us, thus they are attending Synagogue and learning the
Torah on the Sabbath. The issue
before the Beit Din was only whether or not Gentiles need to be
circumcised to be saved, not whether they should eventually be
circumcised. Yeshua commissioned his Talmidim as follows:

Go you therefore, and teach all the Goyim,
and immerse them in the name of the Father,
and the Son, and the Ruach HaKodesh.
and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you,
and here I am with you all the days, to the end of the world.
(Matt. 28:19-20)

Yehsua was instructing his Jewish Talmidim to make converts of the
goyim and to teach the goyim to observe all that Yeshua had commanded
his Jewish talmidim to observe. Our sage Yochanan writes to us
concerning Messiah "He who says, I am in him, out to conduct himself
according to his conduct." (1Jn. 2:6) that is, as a Jew, not as a
Noachide.

The Noachide covenant is a betrothal to YHWH as the Mosaic Covenant is
a marriage to YHWH. A betrothal by definition is a prelude to a
marriage.

Views: 136

Replies to This Discussion

QUOTE FROM ME:

>>"Our sages presupposed that these Gentiles would be going to synagogue
on Sabbath and learning the Torah of Moses (Acts 15:21). "<

YOUR COMMENT:

The apostles (not sages) do not presuppose: they command…


MY REPLY::

The word “for…” at the beginning of 15:21 could be translated “because…” it sets a presupposed condition. Just like “Because I don’t like tomatoes, I don’t want any salad” presupposes tomatoes are in the salad. The statement would have no application to a salad that had no tomatoes and in the same way Acts 15:21 has no application to Gentiles who are not going to Synagogue each Sabbath and learning Torah.


YOU WROTE:

On Matthew 28:18-20:

On the contrary, Matthew 28:18-20 (you quoted in support above gemara) does not command anything about Torah Halacha. It says:

leshmor et khol asher TZEVITI ETKHEM- "to keep all that I have commanded you." Rebe Yeshua Moshiach here meant those things which He personally taught the disciples while He was with them, not those things which G-d has commanded Israel through Moshe (cf. Devarim 27:10; 29:1).


MY REPLY:

Yeshua was teaching Torah. From my commentary on Matthew:

Matt. 4:12-17 …the people that walked in darkness have seen a great light… - Here Matthew quotes Isa. 8:23-9:1 (9:1-2). Yeshua’s teaching was the “light” of Isa. 8:23-9:1 (9:1-2). Isaiah 8:20 provides some important context for this passage:

To the Torah and to the testimony:
If they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.

Thus Yeshua was traveling Galilee teaching Torah.

11:28-30 Come to me, all you that labor and heavy-laden, and I will satisfy you. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am driven out and downcast in
spirit; and you shall find rest for your nefeshot. For my yoke is gentle, and my burden easy.

Now many of the teachers of Torah-lessness use this this passage as a proof text. To them this passage refers to freedom from the bondage of Torah. However a portion of Yeshua's statement is a quotation from the Tanak. A quotation which gives a great deal of context to Yeshua's statement. Lets look at this Tanak passage:

Thus said YHWH, stand you in the ways, and see,
and ask for the old paths, where is the good way,
and walk therein, and you shall find rest for
your souls. But they said, we will not walk therein.
(Jer. 6:16)

Notice that this "way" which gives "rest" is "the old path". Now lets read a little further down in Jer. 6 to obtain more context:

But they said, we will not walk therein (Jer. 6:16)...
...they have not hearkened unto my words,
nor to my Torah, but rejected it.
(Jer. 6:19)

Notice that the "old path" that brings "rest for your souls" to which they said "we will not walk therein" (Jer. 6:16) is identified by YHWH as "my Torah". This takes us up a bit further in the text of Jeremiah:

...they are foolish, for they do not know
the way of YHWH, the requirements of
their Elohim. So I will go to the leaders and
speak to them; surely they know the way
of YHWH, the requirements of their Elohim."
But with one accord they too had broken
off the yoke and torn off the bonds.
(Jer. 5:4-5 see also Jer. 2:20)

Here we find that the "yoke" which brings rest is the yoke which was being rejected. The yoke of Torah.

The yoke that Messiah asks us to take on ourselves, the yoke that will give us rest for our souls is the Torah. The Torah is freedom from the bondage of Torah-lessness. The freedom of Torah is freedom from the bondage to sin that results without Torah. Without Torah there is no true freedom, only bondage. True liberty does not include a license to sin (Rom. 3:8; 6:1-2, 15)


Matt. 12:17-21 the isles shall wait for his Torah – This portion of Matthew quotes from Isaiah 42:1-4. Hebrew Matthew follows the quote as it appears in the Masoretic text, Qumran texts and the Aramaic Peshitta Tanak. However Aramaic and Greek Mt. 12:17-21 have a reading of Isaiah 12:17-21 which agrees with that of the Greek LXX Tanak. As a result they totally omit reference to the fact that this verse has a people waiting for Yeshua to bring them Torah!

YOU WROTE:

Yeshua alluded to his Jewish disciples an awareness of difference between His own commandment and those commanded by Moshe (cf. Matthew 8:4, 5:27-28, 5:31-32


MY REPLY:

From my commentary on Matthew:

Matt. 8:4 See you tell no man – The DuTillet and Munster Hebrew read “see you tell no man”. However the Shem Tob Hebrew has ”keep it to yourself lest you tell a man” the Aramaic of the Old Syriac has “why do you tell a man” while the Peshitta Aramaic has “see, why do you tell a man”. The idea here was not to keep the healing a secret, as some have supposed. Yeshua is instructing the leper not to delay in following the Torah, by telling not just any man about his healing, but the High Priest, who was the only one impowered to pronounce him officially “clean” (Lev. 14:3). Until he had done this, he was still deemed as “unclean” even though he had been healed.

show yourself to the Cohen, and bring to him your offering, as Moshe commanded them – (see Lev. 13:49; 14:1-32)

5:27-30 You shall not commit adultery – Yeshua built a fence around this commandment (Ex. 20:13 (20:14) & 5:18) saying “whoever sees a woman and covets her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” The Talmud echoes this concept saying::

Unchaste imagination is more injurious than sin itself…
(b.Yoma 29a)

This passage is not condemning men for being sexually attracted to women, but is a commandment against actually coveting another man’s wife.

5:31-32 he should write her a bill of divorcement, and give it to her, and send her away from his house but I tell you, that whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, commits adultery with her, and whoever takes her that is cast off commits adultery –

The Greek has (as we see in the KJV) “causes her to commit adultery”. Obvioulsy it would be wrong to say that by divorcing his wife wrongly a man had cause her to commit adultery. The problem is that the Greek translator misunderstood the ambiguous Hebrew and Aramaic which are better understood “commits adultery with her” that is to say that while she is innocent, his past sexual acts with here are now reckoned to him as adutrous.

except for the cause of fornication – This halacha of Yeshua is given four times in Scripture (Mt. 5:31-32; 19:3-9; Mk. 10:2-9 & Lk. 16:18) but only in Matthew is this “escape clause” included giving men the right to divorce their wives in a case of the charge of DAVAR Z’NOT essentially “a word of fornication”. The Torah passage in question is:

When a man takes a wife and marries her,
and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes
because he has found
some unclean matter in her,
and he writes her a bill of divorcement,
puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house,...
(Dt. 24:1)

In the first century a major debate was ongoing as to the meaning of the words for "unclean matter" in this text. (The Hebrew word rbd davar can mean “word” or idiomatically “matter”. The debate is recorded in the Mishna as follows:

The House of Shamai say,
"A man should divorce his wife only because
he has found grounds for it
in unchastity (literally: unclean matter)
, since it is said,
"Because he has found in her
an unclean matter in anything (Dt. 24:1)"
And the House of Hillel say,
"Even if she spoiled his dish, since it is said,
"Because he has found in her
an unclean matter in anything (Dt. 24:1)"
Rabbi Akiba says,
"Even if he found someone else prettier than she,
since it is said,
"And it shall be if she find no favor in his eyes (Dt. 24:1)"
(m.Gittin 9:10)

The controversy surrounded the ambiguity of the phrase "matter of uncleanness." This phrase in Hebrew can be taken literally, or can be taken as an idiomatic expression for fornication. Yeshua interprets it to mean DAVAR Z’NOT which the Peahitta (both here and in Mt. 19:9) literally translates but which the Old Syriac paraphrases with )rwg hyl( rm)t) “it is said against her ‘adultery’” and in Mt. 19:9 )rwgd )tlm “a word of adultery”.

fornication – Exactly how this offense is to be understood is another question. The Hebrew word Z”NOT can refer to sexual immorality, usually by a woman, but it can have other meanings as well. This word can refer to one who is an idolator (Lev. 17:7; 20:5-6; Deut. 31:16) or to one that goes astray from YHWH (Ps. 73:27). Ben Sira writes:

Allow no outlet to water,
and no boldness of speech in an evil wife.
If she does not go as you direct,
separate yourself from her.
(Ben Sira 25:25-26)

It may be that we are to understand Ben Sira’s qualifier “evil wife” to presuppose a wife who is guilty of Z”NOT or perhaps we to understand Z’NOT to include a wife who “does not go [as her husband] directs” as having gone astray from YHWH on the basis that the Torah statement “and he shall rule over you” (Gen. 3:16).

and whoever takes her that is cast off commits adultery – This is not intended as a contradiction to Deut. 24:1f. It refers to the man who took her while she was still married and cause her to be cast off as an adulteress.

YOU QUOTE ME:

>>"Yehsua was instructing his Jewish Talmidim to make converts of the
goyim and to teach the goyim to observe all that Yeshua had commanded
his Jewish talmidim to observe. Our sage Yochanan writes to us
concerning Messiah "He who says, I am in him, out to conduct himself
according to his conduct." (1Jn. 2:6) that is, as a Jew, not as a
Noachide."

AND YOU COMMENT:

This interpretation of the text is far overshot.

c) The clause "...as he walks" (Lamsa, 1 Jn. 2:6) means to walk in the commandment of love (cf. 2 Jn.1:6; 1 Jn.4:21) for Yochann here in the context is addressing to a church not to Jews in Jerushalym;


MY REPLY:

Yeshua says “If you love me, keep my commandments” echoing the Torah Deut. 11:1.

YOU WROTE:

--- Further, throughout three Jochanine Letters, 1, 2, 3 John, the word "walk" Gr. perepateo is used six (6) times, but it is never used to allude to Torah or law of Moshe, not even once; here they are as taken from Wescott-Hort texts:

1 John 1:7 walk in the light
2 John 1:6 walk according to his commandments
3 John 1:4 walk in truth
1 John 1:6 walk in darkness
1 John 2:6 walk as He walked
2 John 1:6 walk in the same



MY REPLY:

Torah Observance is exactly what it means: the “light” is the Torah (Prov. 6:23; Ps. 119:105; Is. 8:20; 51:4) and the “truth” is the Torah (Ps. 119:142, 151) as are “his commandments” which means, if we walk in love we will keep Torah (Deut. 11:1).
Zahav,

You have writen a grea deal of material above, but it all seems to be aimed at saying black it white, white is black, left is right and right is left.

The bottom line is this:

1. Messiah *is* the Torah incarnate.
2. Messiah is YHWH
3. The Messiah was the original Torah giver.
4. When Messiah (YHWH) refers to "my commandments" He refers to the Torah by virtue of points 1-3 above.
5. Messiah was teaching the Torah.
6. Messiah told the 11 remaining Talmidim to go teach the Gentiles to do all that he had commanded the 11 Jewish Talmidim to do.
7. Spricture says if we are in him we should walk as HE walked... the very same author tells us that this walk is keeping the commandments and walking in light and truth, both of which are euphemisms in the Tanak for the Torah.
8. Yochanan identifies Messiah as the light and the truth because Messiah is the Torah incarnate (see item 1).

I think the truth has been made plain here.
I said : Messiah is YHWH

You responded: Wrong! He is the Son of G-d get enrolled now to a good seminary not to Sibelius (my reply to this, infra)

My Response:

It is very easy to show from the Scriptures that Messiah is YHWH. The simplest way is simply to point to instances where the “New Testament” quotes passages from the Tanak (“Old Testament”) and applies them to the Messiah.

For example in John 19:37, Zech. 12:10 is quoted:

But when they came to Yeshua, they saw that he was dead already
and did not break his legs.
But one of the soldiers stuck him in his side with a spear
and immediately blood and water came forth,…
For these things happened that the scripture might be fulfilled
which said, A bone of him will not be broken.(Ps. 34:21(20))
And again another scripture that said, They will look at him
whom they pierced. (Zech 12:10)

But now let us look at Zechariah 12:10 in context:

The burden of the word of YHWH concerning Israel.
The saying of YHWH, who stretched forth the heavens,
And laid the foundation of the earth,
And formed the spirit of man within him…
I will pour out upon the house of David,
And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
The spirit of grace and supplication;
And they shall look at Me whom they pierced;
And they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son….
(Zech. 12:1, 10)

The one being pierced in Jn. 19:37 is clearly Yeshua but the one being pierced in Zech. 12:10 is clearly YHWH.

Lets now look at the quotation of Is. 8:14 in Rom. 9:32:

Because it was not from faith but from “Works of the Law”,
for they stumbled at the stumbling stone.
(Rom. 9:32)

Now Paul is clearly referring here it Messiah, but lets now look at Is. 8:14 in context:

YHWH of hosts, Him shall you sanctify; and let Him be your
fear, and let Him be your dread. And He shall be for a sanctuary;
but for a stumbling stone and for a rock of offence
to both the houses of Israel…
(Is. 8:13-14)

Here it is clearly YHWH who is the “stumbling stone”.

OK now lets look at Phil. 2:10-11:

That at the name of Yeshua every knee will bow
that is in heaven or on earth and that is under the earth,
and every tongue will confess that Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH,
to the glory of Eloah the Father.

Here Paul clearly refer to Is. 45:23:

Thus says YHWH…
That unto Me every knee shall bow,
and every tongue shall swear.
(Is. 45:1, 23)

Clearly Paul applies a Tanak passage which clearly speaks of YHWH to the Messiah.

Now lets look at Rom. 10:9, 13:

And if you confess with your mouth our Adon Yeshua,
And you believe in your heart that Eloah raised him from the dead,
you will be saved. …
For all who will call on the name of YHWH will be saved.
(Rom. 10:9, 13)

Here Paul clearly quotes Joel 3:5 (2:32) but applies the passage to Yeshua despite the fact that Joel is clearly here speaking of YHWH.

There are several other examples: James 5:7 clearly speaks of the coming of Messiah as likened to the “former and latter rain” while in Hosea 6:3 this is clearly the coming of YHWH. Likewise Jude 1:14 & 1 Thes. 3:13 refer to the coming of Messiah yet quote 1Enoch 1:9 & Zech. 14:5 which clearly refer to the coming of YHWH. Finally in Mt. 22:41-46 Yeshua himself identifies himself with the “YHWH” at the right hand of “YHWH” in Ps. 110:1-2, 5.
Now if Messiah is YHWH then Messiah is the original Torah giver and all of my other points stand.
Yes we are to be circumcised but the circumision is of the Heart Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Yet physical circumcision is still good for hygene. But it is not a must as far as Gentiles are concerned when it comes to good standing with the Almighty.
Of course circumcision of the heart is nothing new, it was in the Torah (Deut. 10:16 and Lev. 26:41; Jer. 4:4) and it was not a REPLACEMENT for physical circumcision but was ALONGSIDE physical circumcision. All Rom. 2:29 tells us is that a true Jew is one who has this circumcision of the heart, it does not say that physically uncircumcised gentiles can become Jews by having the circumcision of the heart instead of physical circumcision.

Physical circumcision is still good because YHWH commanded it and has never revoked that commandment, and anyone who ever tells you a commandment of Torah has been revoked is to be rejected (Deut. 12:32-13:18)
Yes but where does it say that a gentile has to be physicaly circumcised other than those that live within a jewish society?

James Trimm said:
Of course circumcision of the heart is nothing new, it was in the Torah (Deut. 10:16 and Lev. 26:41; Jer. 4:4) and it was not a REPLACEMENT for physical circumcision but was ALONGSIDE physical circumcision. All Rom. 2:29 tells us is that a true Jew is one who has this circumcision of the heart, it does not say that physically uncircumcised gentiles can become Jews by having the circumcision of the heart instead of physical circumcision.

Physical circumcision is still good because YHWH commanded it and has never revoked that commandment, and anyone who ever tells you a commandment of Torah has been revoked is to be rejected (Deut. 12:32-13:18)
The way I see it Spiritual Circumcision (of the heart) is a Must to be forgiven and accepted. I circumsized both physicaly and spiritualy.
What are you talking about... the Body of Messiah is a Jewish society.

I will ansewere this in more detauil, but it may be Sun or mon before I have time
Well I know that The Law hasn't been changed but statutes and ordinances have! Many things have been fulfilled by the first coming. Not sure what you want me to be saying. I'm keeping it simple. I think we are speaking to differ languages. I look at all uses of the term Jew and dont ignore any of them nor do I use only one when using the term (if I do I go out of my way to detail which use I am speaking on). I thought this was a discussion on circumcision not what label people choose to use to describe the many membered body. If we don't take into account the different uses of the term we allow even more to claim to be Jews that are not. As to the vague use (one who studies and embraces Judaism or a citizen of the city of Judah) takes away from what I consider a jew and spacifics to that people. (1 tribe) Do I think they should observe the commandment of physical and spiritual Circumcision (those of the tribe of Judah) yes. Do I think all the house of Israel is to as well? Yes (those who know to do so and know who they are).
The Word is clear on the fact that it is far worse to commit a transgression knowing better than one to commit the same not knowing better. Instead of whipping people with something they don't understand and just telling them they must, takes away to the whole concept of why either physical or spiritual circucision was first inacted!

James Trimm said:
What are you talking about... the Body of Messiah is a Jewish society.

I will ansewere this in more detauil, but it may be Sun or mon before I have time
The statutes and ordinances ARE the Torah. And they cannot be taken from or added to, and chaneing them is to take from them and add to them at the same time. Anyone saying the statutes and ordinances have been changed must be rejected (Deut. 12:32-13:18)

A Jew can also be one who "becomes a Jew" (Eth. 8:17)

I have written much about what a "Jew" and "Judaism" is in my blogs.

Everyone wishing to be part of the Assembly known also as the "Body of Messiah" must be circumcised.

See my blog at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/understanding-the-asse...
Yeah I know of the many uses!
Back to covenant! so you feel there is no "new covenant" only one of which has remained the same and no sections have been fulfilled? Do you not think Christ was the lamb of the Almighty? If so that is one example of how the subject and symbolizim remains the same but ordinances and statutes have changed or there would still be need for blood sacrifice. The Law (Torah) stays the same and no one is subtracting from it! There is an appointed time and a rehearsal 4 most all things.

James Trimm said:
The statutes and ordinances ARE the Torah. And they cannot be taken from or added to, and chaneing them is to take from them and add to them at the same time. Anyone saying the statutes and ordinances have been changed must be rejected (Deut. 12:32-13:18)

A Jew can also be one who "becomes a Jew" (Eth. 8:17)

I have written much about what a "Jew" and "Judaism" is in my blogs.

Everyone wishing to be part of the Assembly known also as the "Body of Messiah" must be circumcised.

See my blog at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/understanding-the-asse...

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