Unfortunate Banning of Mark Best

[James Trimm]

As stated in the Nazarene Space Rules:

Administrators of NazareneSpace are Overseers and do have the power to ban members PENDING A MATTHEW 18:15-20 PROCESS. This means that if you are a Nazarene in good standing with the community then you can only be banned for an actual sin (transgression of the Torah). Nazarene Space is an official extension of the Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim, recognizes the International Nazarene Beit Din and will utilize it as “the Assembly” as referenced in Matt. 18:17.

However Mark Best has stated:
“Please omit me from your mailing lists and do what you will with my page.”

Thus he has given up his right to this process.

Once Mark is banned his posts will disappear, so the following is a record of the exchange which will explain to all why Mark was banned:

Mark Best Posted:
The use of pagan and blasphemous titles and names
I am shocked to see some here who refuse to rid themselves of pagan ways, yet say they follow the Hebrew faith! Do you not know that the words g-d, l-rd,and j-sus was the start of corruption of the one true Faith? Deeply offensive to our Abba and Elohim, and to all those who follow Yahweh. If this continues, and those people do not reword their quotes from Scripture and their comments and/or blogs, this will be the third site I must leave. This is COMMANDED of all who follow Yahweh and Yahshua. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Shalom to all my brothers and sisters.

p.s.... the site operator should request this as well, or ban these people. A good suggestion would be a disclaimer upon joining, that these practices will not be tollerated. Yahshua will not tollerate them on Judgement Day, rest assured.

Shawn Replied:
Some people are a light to the nations. They set out a candle and they take in the lost. They slowly, kindly, and patiently work with and help elevate other souls in conjunction with their own. This method of sharing light positively effects hundreds or thousands of souls over the course of many decades.

Other people however feel that to be a light means strapping on pounds of explosives and detonating in the middle of a crowded street. No doubt that produces quite a flash but no soul is elevated in the process. That level of harshness is counter productive.

It is one thing to kindly and lovingly teach people that they should CHOOSE a better path (including proper names)

It is another thing entirely to be a spiritual suicide bomber who blows up in everyone's face with all the harshness and malice of a terrorist. No doubt people who behave this way say "I'm just speaking the truth" but then again that's what a terrorist believe too.

Blessings to all.
PS Pride makes an easy target. This is how David defeated Galiath. Galaith's head was so big, how could David possibly miss?

Mark Replied:
Thank you Shawn for your Wisdom. What I am getting at, is that the first and easiset step towards salvation, is to rid yourselves of such names and titles. I don't believe in pulling punches. After all, this is indeed immortality we are striving for. Shalom brother.

James Trimm Replied:
First of all I am all for the use of Sacred Names. However establishing a sacred name halacha creates a few problems.

For example the word "God" comes from the name of a false deity who was called "Gawd". Baal Gawd (Lord of good fortune) was one of the titles of Baal. To my knowledge the English word "Lord" has no such pagan origin, and while it is a possible translation of the word/name "Ba'al" it can also be a translation of the Hebrew word(s) "Adon/Adonai".

I dislike the term "Jesus" and find it culturally offensive and it refers to the anti-nomian Gentile "Jesus" but the claims of a pagan origin of this name have been discredited. Some have tried to tie it to Zeus (Je-Zeus) but the problem is that the only thing that the words "Jesus" and "Zeus" in the Greek is the "-us" ending common to most names.

And then there is another issue. In the original Hebrew of Jer. 31:32 has YHWH saying "I was a husband (Ba'al) to them" the Hebrew word "Ba'al" is a Hebrew word meaning "husband, master, lord" but it had also come to be used as the name of a pagan deity. It can be argued from Jer. 31:32 that while it is not prefered, it might be permitted to use a word as a title for YHWH even if that word was also be the name of a pagan deity. Thus if Jeremiah can quote YHWH as calling himself "Ba'al" then can we truly forbid the the term "God"? I very rarely use the word "God" today, but I was not so strict ten years ago when I recorded some great teachings before a live audience. It is no longer so easy to make such recordings, should I dispose of the old ones, even though they teach some profound things? Especially in light of the use of Ba'al in reference to YHWH in Jer. 31:32.

Mark Wrote:
The very fact that King Constantine, in 400 ad, rewrote these names into Scripture and falsified his Word, is enough proof for me. The origins of j-sus are greek. Does it make sense to use greek terminology?. Also christ comes from christos, another greek word. Yes I knew about g-d = gawd, but thank you anyway. I will always believe in using Hebrew names for our Abba and Elohim. These "other names" have questionable origins at best, so I refuse to use them. There is no Hebraic flavour in them and as such are offensive. Some are in their comfort zone, but comfort can lead to s.a.TAN. As for l-rd...it is also used for the l-rd of darkness. This fact alone suggests it as unholy and NOT set-apart, so why the confusion?. Do not speak of the the Almighty with the same words used for s.a.TAN. AS Yahweh said,"in the end times, my name shall be known again, and it is YHWH". Thank you for your comment James. Shalom

P.S. You should edit your teachings and omit the bad words, but do not discard the teachings.

Rick Replied:
When I came to the Messianic movement, I was told a Hundred different ways to say Yah's name. And none of the people spoke Hebrew, They were trying to tell me how to say our Creator's name. They were just like everyone else doing their best to follow Torah. After all this time,,,, since there was no recording of how to say the name. I am fine with Father , Abba , YHWH , Adonai HaShem .
And if I am speaking with a person and they say G-d or L-rd , I don't go out of my way to correct them . That is not my job !
The only word that does get to me is Jesus. ( I will try and correct with Yeshua ). There is a whole great big world of people who serve our Father that do not say his name . The heart is where our Father looks. Even on this site here you can find people who say the Name different , each feels he or she is right , Not for me to judge . I got enough to worry about. There's a great little verse I read in Matthew 7:1 that I remind myself of all the time, and the guy saying it was Jesus, I don't agree with that name , But I sure got his point. R.T.

David Markus wrote:
Ameyn Rick! well said.

James Trimm Replied:
Mark,

By your standards YHWH himself should not have referred to Himself with the title BAAL in Jer. 31:32.

Did YHWH sin in referring to himself with a title that was also the name of a false god?

BTW it is not feasible to edit that much audio to replace single words commonly used.


James Trimm Wrote:
BTW the titles "El" and "Eloah" were also names of false gods. The gods Adonis and Odin were variations of "Adon/Adonai" and even the name YAHWEH was used in various forms as the names of false gods as well (such as Io).

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the use of the true Hebrew names and discourage the use English titles, especially those which were names of pagan gods (or to which anti-nomian theology has been strongly attached).

But I do not believe that we should disfellowship those who use these titles so long as they do not forbid the use of the true Name and Hebrew titles and as long as they do not alter the Scriptures by substituting, and as long as they do not abstain from using the name altogether themselves.

Bat Teshuvah Said:
According to your standards Mark, it is blasphemous to be subscribed to NazareneSpace, because the word 'Nazarene' can be understood as a pagan name for the branch Tammuz. In fact, your Yahushua can't be the true branch, as you'd be calling our Saviour 'Tammuz'.

James Trimm:
And for those that think that a specific pronounciation of the Name is a point of salvation, I must ask if you think that deaf mutes are simply fuel for the fire of Hell?

Mark Said:
Thank you for the kind reply. I think I may have been misunderstood. I am not here to squabble or offend anyone. I have had many replies to this blog. My point was this. If some still use the terms g-d, l-rd, ans j-sus, what else have they comprimised in the Faith? Surely I hope they do not celebrate the pagan holidays. The pronounciations are not important, as long as of Hebrew origin, but greek paganism is. Shalom from the heart, and all His blessings to you, brother and sister.

Mark:
I will not be participating in petty squabbling on this site anymore. This is happening here, just like in Christianity, and Catholocism. Regardless, most believers I know find them offensive, as they should. He has one true name, pronounce it how you like, and that name is YHWH. I will cease to post anymore comments on this site, and/or blogs. It is falling on deaf ears. I have much respect of your knowledge James, and was not trying to offend you or anyone else. For that I am truly sorry and humbled. But I find these chats counterproductive. My time would be more wisely spent following His Word, and His Scripture. I have seen a reply of 1 who is pridefull that he was backed up on his viewpoint. This is not what YHWH wants or expects of any who follow Him. Like another here who shall remain anonymous, my intentions were pure, but was called a few things between the lines, this is why this person refuses to enter into these discussions. We are all at different levels of understanding. Some read YHWH's words for years, but never pass level one interpretation...the literal. No more foolishness will I enter into. Shalom

Rick:
Mark, no offense from my view. What a person does is not in my control . To learn and study is. Welcome to Nazaren Space . R.T.

Mark:
I never said that a particular pronounciation of His name was important. I said what I believe His name is. James, It is you who entered the long winded pronounciation of His name...not I. Like I said, some are getting their backs up in the air, and for what?! No more petty squabbling will I be a part of. No more comments or blogs from me. Case Closed Shalom

James Trimm:
Iron sharpens iron: so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.
Prov. 27:17

Mark:
Linguistic arguements are not fruitfull. The name is YHWH. No more will I communicate with those who refuse to see the error of their ways. Thank you. It is time to start my own site, where such blasphemies are not tollerated, and correction is answered with thanks, and not retribution. Shalom and bye

James Trimm:
Actually RIck had mentioned running into the pronounciation issue and I was responding to that.

If everyone here agrees on everything all of the time, we are not going to have much discussion, and we are not going to learn much.

You seem to ignore my point and instead want to go create a new site where it can simply be ignored.

You never responded to my point about YHWH referring to himself with the title BAAL in Jer 31. You said "linguistic arguments are not fruitful" but ALL debates aboutr names and titles are "linguistinc" and you were the one who brought it up.

If it is not a point of fellowship then how are you goinhg to create a group where other names and titkes are not allowed? by censoring others or by banning them? And in doing so are you not MAKING it a point of fellowship?

By leaving here are you not doing the same?

Mark:
Comprimise is the first step towards s.a.TAN. We are supposed to rebuke with kindness and correct those in error. That is all I have tried to do. "for the blind, refuse to see" Shalom

James Trimm:
You seem to be saying that your view must be right, that you do not need to defend or prove your claims, that we must accept them without such, and that we should be disfellowshipped from you if we dont agree with you.

It is as if you are asking us to accept you as the sovereign of the universe.


If you can prove from the Scriptures that use titles for YHWH that are also the names of pagan gods should be a point of fellowship then I will accept it, but I see no proof, only your pwersonal decree. You give no response to the facts presented, and ask us to accept your decree in their place.

The wonderful thing about Nazarene Space is that within the bounds of "points of fellowship" you are free to disagree here.

Mark Best Wrote:
I have received an e-mail from a true believer who does not make excuses for correction of their errors. No pagan names are tollerated there. It is YHWH telling you that you are in error, not I. No more wating my time with comprimisers andthose who wish to go only part way into the Faith. This site is indeed tainted with the spirit of s.a.TAN bye till you get your act together

James Trimm:
The point of Nazarene Space is that we are an open forum for discussion and for iron to sharpen iron.

We are not religious overlords who lay down decrees and ban everyone who disagrees us.

Moreover, when I make an argument, I do so, I formulate an argument by applying fixed rules of understanding (Hermeneutics) including historical cultural information to the text of Scripture and lay out the logic of my understanding.

I do not simply ignore all arguments that disagree with a preconceived conclusion and lay out a decree that I epect all others to accept because I said so.

But that is just the way I do things... and after all I think rain is wet, so who am I to say?

And when we make Sacred Name arguments we need to make sure that they are factually accurate... otherwise we may discredit the Sacred Name argument in general. For example you said:

"The very fact that King Constantine, in 400 ad, rewrote these names into Scripture and falsified his Word, is enough proof for me."

Constantine did not write anything in 400 AD because he died in 337 AD.

The names you mentioned were used in Greek and Latin versions of the Scriptures that long predate Constantine. In fact the LXX uses THEOS and KURIOS long before the first century. Our earliest fragments of the Greek NT date to the Second Century and the same can be said for the earliest Latin texts (Which use Latin terms). The earliest English texts, of course, came centuries after his death.

Mark Best:
That information is private sir. You seem to want to prove you are right, when clearly from a Scriptural point of view, you are not. No humilty there. To hide behind linguistics to prove a point is foolish at best. Please stop harrassing me. I tried, as commanded to correct those in grave error, and know have washed my hands of this, as commanded. Part way into the Faith is no way for me, or any true believer. I said I am staying far away from false doctrine. It is easy to corrupt His word with bible quotes, but a serious sin. I came for Truth, not for paganism. I will not lay down with sinners, if they refuse to repent their transgressions. I will not reply to any more of your or any of your so called believers emails. I have cleansed myself with YHWH's grace. Stop trying to prove a point, that is so wrong to prove in the first place. Squabbles on false doctrine upkeeping is not for I. Shalom

James Trimm:
Like most others here, I simply seek the truth of Scripture not the decrees of individuals.

You are welcome to participate here. In case you have not noticed, you are welcome to disagree with me or others here. And you will note your freedom to post your view. However, posting your view as a mere decree will not "cut-it" on this level of a discussion group. Participants here will expect you to apply Scripture in a logical manner to establish your points, and to respond to Scriptural challenges in a real way, rather than by simply insisting that the other side is wrong. You may find that this process of dialog (iron sharpening iron) edifies the body much more that simply leaving the group and creating a new one where your views cannot be questioned, and where all that disagree with you are simply banned rather than responded to.

Mark:
An angry one when exposed eh?

James Trimm:
No, actually I am actually not angry at all. That is the beauty of it. :-)

So feel free to disagree here, but if you expect to be taken seriously, you are going to have to actually engage in a meaningful way, rather than simply decree that you are right.

Mark:
You obviously insist on the last word, so next e-mail you can have that last say, you who are puffed up with pride.

David Markus:
I see no ones reply to you coming across as puffed up with pride. Try going back and having a second look, I don't think you are understanding the point that all of us are trying to make. Yesterday, you left a few posts that flat out say we should disfellowship people who are not in agreement with you, you also left me a message stating your belief in what you think is the sacred name.

You said: I believe it is Yahweh thankyou Shalom

I said; If you disagree about how the true name is pronounced and or spelled that is OK. I encourage you to research further. A word of advice to you though, sometimes coming into a situation(this site) with guns blazing is not the best tactic. Not saying I disagree with your posts, All on this site are at different levels of observance and knowledge, most on here are working towards that knowledge. Let there not be divisions among us.

YehWeh bless

You said: Thank you for the kind comments Dud. I have duly noted that my approach may be interpreted as harsh. I am zealous over Zion. Shalom brother and all the best..

so......seeing the tone of your last message to me, may we have a discussion about the sacred name or other topics now, instead of pointing our finger at someone declaring that someone is arrogant or prideful, to be honest that is all I've seen from you since you arrived.

YehWeh bless, and shalom.


Rick:
Mark, what about the Levite's ? Are they not chosen by YHWH for all their generations ? And if they don't conform to your view are they now tossed out ? And I must dis-agree with you !! this is not an evil site !!! If one takes the time to listen, one can learn a great deal from here . It might not line up with your standards, But evil ? I don't think so . R.T.

Sevynn Leverette:
Mark, i too at one point stood in your shoes, and also believed that the use of any title was against YEWE, however with time and maturity, we all understand that ALL that call on the Name of YEWE will be saved. I also wanted to start a site where gawd was not used, and as parables are revealed to us now and in the future this will happen with maturity. We are all made perfect, or fashioned and formed into the mirror image of YeweShua

YeweShua increased in wisdom and stature, and grew in favor with YEWE and mankind!

YEWE was pleased to see Him crushed!

Those that love DISCIPLINE love KNOWLEDGE, those that don't are .................stupid!

As YEWE allows into the heart of mankind and leads them, as with the parable of wheat and tares, it is the Messegers who do the harvesting NOT, NOT men, as we attest here by arguing a point in which we all agree, His Name is YEWE, IEUE, YHWH, EUEI, HWHY, EWEY, and He comes in His Fathers Name YeweShua, Yahshuah, Yeshua, Yahushua.

Selah and Shalom may you be lead by the Ruach haQadesh

Mark Best:
It took Yahweh one day to tell me to leave this tainted site. My new Messianic site does not make excuses, will not accept or tolerate pagan practices, and is not puffed up with pride, trying to prove they are right! I was astonished at the foolish bickering over what is widely known to be correct. One said he was not angry, but was sending me e-mails every 2 minutes or so. He was, and is a liar. Yahweh has seen the actions and hearts of those here who support mocking his true name. Shame on you all. Don't bother replying to this, as in His eyes, you lost before you even started. Goodbye and Shalom although you wronged Him and I. Please omit me from your mailing lists and do what you will with my page.

[Jeremiah Moses]

WE must learn to love, we must learn to have kindness and compassion toward one another... or we will not make it.. we will become lost ... Like in the past... We must see are Yeshua and become like HIM.... We must show love toward each other.. And stop the spirit of debate that will get that gets us no where. but in are heads We must Know Yeshua's love and live and walk out His Love ... One with the Father and One with Yeshua!!

[James Trimm]

Certainly no one can say that Mark was silenced here, he was permitted to have his say, even though I did not agree with it. He was certainly given every opportunity to engage in dialog and cite Scripture to make his point and respond to the point being made in Jer, 31:32.

[James Trimm]

More than that he insisted upon his "decrees" being accepted simply because he said so, without citing even a single Scripture to support his point. Yet he insisted that his decrees held the weight of a point of fellowship, that those who did not accept it should be banned, and when that was not accepted from him, he himself broke fellowship.

[Rick & Debbie Toole]

The sad part to this story is a person is no longer here . He chose to leave , because we ( Nazaren Space ) were not Holy unto his defination. There is only one defination to being Kodesh,, Torah ! R.T.