Nazarene Space

"Last Trump?" What was Sha'ul Talking About?


A lot of Bible scholars make a strawman of Paul's teaching on the "Last Trump" sounded in 1Corinthians 15:52 and 1Thessalonians 4:16. They try to link it with John's seven trumpet judgement prophecy of the Book of Revelation. They think we are stupid enough to believe that Paul was teaching on the seven trumpet judgement when we know that historically Paul died about 30 years before John wrote the Revelation, and the Revelation was for John not Paul; So Paul had no idea of the seven trumpet judgement.

Therefore what trumps are Paul talking about? The two in Numbers 10:1-2. The first trump has already sounded to prepare the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth to move out with the first coming of Yeshua, the second can sound at any time -- are you Rapture ready (Luke 21:28, Mark 13: 28-37)?

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Comment by Paula McJunkin on June 8, 2009 at 8:04am
Lionel,
This is a very interesting idea and I can agree with your perspective on the trunpets except usually the first trumpet was a warning then the second was to prepare for battle. I don't agree with "the rapture" theory such as it is...I believe we "will" be caught up in the air with our Lord but the basis of the rapture "theory" is that he will return in 7 years for those who didn't make it the first time??????That doesn't seem fair to everybody else in history who would want a second chance to get on the "ark". Maybe you can explain it to me in a better light. Shalom, Paula
Comment by Lionel Lenox on June 8, 2009 at 8:21am
They will get their second chance, Revelation 20:4. Daniel's 70th Week will be a seven year period of martyrdom for Yeshua's talmidim. It's good to hear from you, may this week be filled with peace for you and yours.

Shalom Aleikhem,
Lionel
Comment by Shawn on June 8, 2009 at 8:39am
I am not sure by what I am reading on this page but as it appears to me right now it seems that some believe in the idea of a rapture (perhaps you stated this jokingly if so ignore the following comment). Paul's comment about a trumpet, the lord coming down, and people being caught up in the air can be interpreted as the christian concept of a rapture or as the hebrew concept of regathering. What you may want to consider is that the first time that Hashem made a covenant with Israel all of these things happened too. Hashem told Mosheh, when "the trumpet" sounds long that he would "descend" in thick cloud. He told Mosheh that the children of Israel should wash for three days in preparation for this event. When Hashem descended to the earth in the thick cloud he descended over Mt. Sinai on which the children of Israel were to go up "into the air" to meet him. However out of fear they appointed Mosheh to do so in thier place. Nearly every prophet speaks about the time that Hashem and the Mashiach will miraculously regather all twelve tribes of Israel from the four corners of the earth and take them as his bride. The will go as on eagles wings to meet Hashem, but all of this is done here on earth in a second exodus. The concept of a rapture is not even 200 years old and it was developed from a serious lack of understanding hebraic idioms and spirituality. But please dont take my word for it I'm just throwing this out there as food for thought.
Comment by Lionel Lenox on June 8, 2009 at 8:57am
Why so mean spirited Shawn? The argument speaks for itself, backed up Biblically and hisorically.

Shalom,
Lionel
Comment by Charles William Gilbert on June 8, 2009 at 9:17am
Lionel,
I fully agree with you Paul was not talking about the Seven trumphrts of Revelations. He was just making mention that at the last trumphet that we would be called up to Heaven to take our place with Yeshua.

Charles Gilbert
Comment by Brock on June 8, 2009 at 9:42am
Lionel, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. When it comes to the written Word of God man is only a scribe an a instrument of the Holy Spirit (truth). And the written Word is for times to come and certain layers of the written Word are revealed unto certain generations of which are present when prophacies are revealed. I see nothing but evidence that 1 Cor. is speaking of the 7th trumpet as well. These areas you document are to be compared with many areas to draw the big picture. At the 7th trupet it is obvious that all living in the flesh will shed the flesh and remain only in their spiritual bodies and able to see into the spirit realm.
The whole concept of the trumpets is layed out in a way that agrees with the seals and yet it seems the strawman arguement would be the one that makes aligations and statements that have no substance and end with questions and confussion. No disrespect but 1 Thess and 1st Cor. is speaking of the same exact thing. Look at the spirits and what is happening and the fact that the last trupet and 7th trumpet are the same. The time of Pauls Death has nothing to do with the message shared through the inspired word. I list the comparing scriptures that together draw it out in a way that there are no gaps in the blog I have that is titled something like exsposing the false pre tribulation rapture theory.
Perhaps we will just have to agree to dis-agree with one another.
Comment by Lionel Lenox on June 8, 2009 at 10:04am
The Scripture says "This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah....He communicated it by sending his angel to his servant Yochanan,...," Revelation 1:1 (CJB) It isn't given to Paul -- God does pick the times when, the places where, and the people who inscribed His Holy Word.

Shalom, Lionel
Comment by Lionel Lenox on June 10, 2009 at 8:13am
The LORD said for His talmidim to watch and be ready for His return. Are you ready for His Return?
Comment by Lionel Lenox on June 10, 2009 at 11:05am
And yes Carol -- the LORD loves you and knows you are waiting on Him

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