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Can you answer the strong Christian claim that the Torah has been abolished?

Do you know about the doctrine of dispensationalism and why many Christians believe that the Law is not for today?

The Great Torah Debate:

On November 10th and 17th of 2004, Messianics and Christians gathered in Dallas/Fort Worth Texas as Rabbi James Trimm and Pastor Mark Carr debated the question, "Is the Torah for Today?" (Parts one and two).

Views: 111

Comment by Brian Forbes on September 24, 2009 at 10:09am
"...they are going to hell for it..."

I believe you'll find that there are varying degrees of belief in the Torah. Just how much do you have to abide by to receive salvation from hell?
Comment by Roderick Nepomuceno on September 24, 2009 at 4:54pm
The basis of our salvation is powered by the Torah. Without Torah, Messiah has no grounds to save us!
Comment by Brian Forbes on September 24, 2009 at 5:22pm
That is a very powerful statement. The reason why the law has power to save is because the righteous Judge abides by the law. At the same time, my point remains, and so does my question. There are some that say the entire OT is just to show you the context for the life of Yeshua, who, basically, causes the Judge to throw out the law and have mercy. My young kids know the law of my house, and they know that I have the power to toss out the punishment that is due them, provided they accept the terms of my mercy (accepting the gift by belief in His power to save). These people accept that there is a law, but that, by mercy, we will not be accountable for it. My kids don't necessarily have to do anything to get mercy.

All that said, this is not my position. I believe that we should keep the Torah simply because it's what YHWH wants us to do. Our salvation from hell isn't because of keeping any one command, or even any list of commands. It's not in understanding how the whole thing works. It's by the mercy of the Judge that we are saved from the consequences of our transgressions.

That doesn't seem to be your position. So my question was, and still is, just how much do you have to keep in order to attain salvation from hell? Which laws are important? Is it a matter of the will? What do we need to do, exactly, to attain the mercy of our Judge?
Comment by Janice Coffey on September 24, 2009 at 11:24pm

When Yahusha ha Messiaj died the veil was rent and the ark of the second covenant was reavealed for repentance of all sinners to return to the old paths!

And the L-rd G-d called Adam and said to him, Adam,where art thou?

And he said to him, I heard thy voice as thou walkedst in the garden, and I feared because I was naked and I hid myself.


And G-d said to him, Who told thee that thou wast naked, unless thou hast eaten of the tree concerning which I charged thee of it alone not to eat?

And Adam said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me-- she gave me of the tree nd I ate.

And the G-d said to the woman, Why hast thou done this? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me and I ate.

And the L-rd G-d said to the serpent, Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle and all the brutes of the earth, on thy breast and belly thou shalt go, and thou shalt eat earth all the days of thy life.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel.

Ref: Genesis 3: 10-15

Nu 35:21-22 Luk 23:12 Rom 8:7 Eph 2;15-16 James 4:4

Comment by Janice Coffey on September 24, 2009 at 11:27pm

May Yahuah Bless and Keep Y'all

Comment by Janice Coffey on September 24, 2009 at 11:29pm

Comment by Janice Coffey on September 24, 2009 at 11:57pm


Comment by Brian Forbes on September 28, 2009 at 12:02pm
On the one hand, we are saved to the Kingdom. I agree with that. On the other hand:
23 And a man asked Him, whether those who will live are few.
24 And Yeshua said to them: Endeavor to enter through the narrow door. For I say to
you, that many will seek to enter, and not be able.
25 From the hour that the Adon of the house rises, and secures the door, then: you will
stand outside, and knock on the door, and begin to say, our Adon, our Adon, open to me!
And He will answer and say: I say to you that I do not know you. From where do you
26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank before you: and you have taught in our
27 Then He will say to you, I do not know you: from where do you [come]? Depart
from Me, workers of falsehood.995
28 There will be there, weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Avraham, and
Yitzchak, and Ya’akov, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of Eloah: but you will be
cast out. (Luke 13, HRV)

If you look at how the NKJV translates v. 23:
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them

Using the tools on, I notice that the word "saved" is in that verse ( I am not an expert in Hebrew, by any stretch, but it seems like, even if the word is not there, which it seems like it is, the context shows that we ought to consider the fact that we need salvation on that day the doors are shut. We are saved "to", but we are also saved "from". We are saved from when we are saved to. They work in tandem.

One thing is certain, I don't want to be one of those "workers of falsehood"!

The original response that provoked this discussion was that not keeping the law will result in hell. It seems like this passage shows that to be the case, at least in part. We don't get locked out for no reason. On the other hand, it's not by works of righteousness either. It's by grace!

Of course, there are books written by people in this forum on this subject. I don't need to hash it out here. I certainly don't think that eating pork will disqualify a man from entering that narrow gate.
Comment by Ed on October 1, 2009 at 9:26am
YHWH established His Law (Torah) because it is based on intrinsic righteousness and justice, which means violation of His Law causes spiritual harm to others, which disrupts the peace in society. He will not do away with His Law because if He did, chaos amongst us would result, obviously. Look at our society in these United States. Because of a lawless attitude people are getting worse and worse with their behavior. Eventually total anarchy will result, and there will be no peace anywhere here. YHWH is using this very fact
of our national lawlessness to prove His point. -Ed

fact of our national lawlessness to prove His point
Comment by Brian Forbes on October 1, 2009 at 10:25am
My point was, and is, that those that keep most of the law (e.g. the law of love, helping the poor, teaching their kids to do the same) and don't keep other laws (e.g. eating pork, not keeping the festivals, being ignorant of such things) don't seem to me to be on a path to hell. It's akin to j-walking or copying software. You are breaking the law, but it's hard to define why we should keep those laws. You could be arrested for those things, but it doesn't seem like you should be. I say it again, eating pork is a first step toward anarchy, but it isn't anarchy. They are still keeping much of the rest of the law. If we had to pin down exactly how much of the law we have to keep to remain under grace, I think we wouldn't be able to do it. It does seem to me, though, that I shouldn't go to jail for giving my brother a copy of the CD I just bought, or copying a DVD I just rented to watch it later. It doesn't seem like people should be going to hell for eating pork, when in all other ways, they're keeping the law.

Just so you know, I haven't eaten pork for 10 years.


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