Nazarene Space

The Great Torah Debate

Can you answer the strong Christian claim that the Torah has been abolished?

Do you know about Dispensationalism and why Christians believe the Torah is not for today?

On November 10th and 17th of 2004 Messianic Jews and Christians gathered together in Arlington Texas for:

The Great Torah Debate: Is the Torah for Today?

This was perhaps the first time a Nazarene/Messianic Rabbi had ever publicly debated with a Christian Pastor on this topic.

Messianic/Nazarene Rabbi James Scott Trimm of Beit Netzarim Congregation in Hurst Texas argued "Yes—The Torah is for today."

Christian Pastor Mark Carr of Arlington Community Church in Arlington Texas argued "No—The Torah is not for today."

The Great Torah Debate is now available as a two part DVD at:

Views: 255

Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 3:20pm
1). The Law and the Prophets speak very clearly about false prophets, instructing the people to disobey him, to not show kindness to the False Prophet, not to speak in the defense of the False Prophet, and to submit the False Prophet to death.

2). Why should we treat a false prophet in this manner? It is because playing with prophecy makes playing with fire like child's play. Prophecy was G-d 's method of communicating with His People and mankind. To play around with that is playing god. People that come along with a made up story and claim that they have a message from G-d, is the most despicable form of evil and lawlessness. Not only does it a show disrespect and utter Contempt to G-d (who by the way is a Good Family Court Judge and we are commanded to show respect, honor and worship to Elohim), but it places ALL mankind in an extreme dangerous predicament with the One that can destroy not just our Physical Bodies but our Nefesh (Spiritual body). Making a False Claim or False Accusation in the name of G-d can lead to catastrophic disaster.

How do we spot a False Prophet or a False Teacher?

1. The Message

If a Prophet makes a claim that G-d instructed him to tell the people to worship idols, or in any manner permanently changes the Torah laws, he is a Complete fraud and we are not to give him the time of day. G-d Himself forewarned that He would never tell anyone to worship anything or anyone other than HaShem Himself, and He made it clear that the Torah cannot be changed. The Prophet is allowed to explain the Torah in detail, but we are to disregard the Prophet's Teachings and the Prophet if what the Prophet teaches or prophecies clearly violates ANY of the Torah Laws that HaShem Himself gave to Moshe at Sinai or the New Covenant at Mo'Av.

2. The Messenger - when to NOT KILL THE MESSENGER!

When a person suitable for prophecy claims to have received a Prophecy for G-d, and conveys a message without wanting to add to or take away from any of the commandments, but simply to serve G-d properly, we tell him if you are indeed a prophet to predict the future. If he does, we wait and see. If he was wrong even to the nth detail, he is a False Prophet, HOWEVER, if ALL of what the Prophet said comes true, he is to be believed.

A prophet has to be checked this way many times. See Deuteronomy 13:2-6 and 18:20-22 for verification.

To those that would say that Jesus or Yeshua is the Messiah AND teach the following makes not only that person a False Teacher/Prophet, but Yeshua/Jesus as well:

1. Pray to Jesus.
a. Even Jesus taught to pray to HaShem.
b. Praying to ANYONE other than HaShem is Idolatry - Even if Yeshua is who He says He is.
2. If Jesus taught that everyone can now eat Unclean Meats.
a. This is a direct, clear and convincing evidence of the violation of the Torah Laws.
3. Any of the above would make a follower of Jesus a False Prophet since he is a False Prophet.
4. IF Peter/Kefa/Paul taught that we can now eat Unclean meats.
a. See Peter's Vision in Acts Chapter 10, but this vision is clearly interpreted by Kefa himself.
5. If Yeshua taught against the Traditions of the Fathers.
a. G-d Himself instructed Moshe and all of our Religious Leaders to create the Traditions of the Fathers.

If the Torah has indeed been abolished, then Yeshua is a liar since he clearly stated that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but before the Torah will." It is His Word. Yeshua is the Torah.
Dispensationalism - Codified in 1925 c.e. Who would want to buy into that teaching.?!
The Pastor is making Demands to G-d that he become Least in the Kingdom for teaching that the Torah is NOT for today! Yeshuas words and I agree 100% with Him.
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 5:27pm
Ken, Bat Teshuvah. However, the only Gentiles that I am aware of that can effectively and truly make any Jew Jealous (including this one) is one that is Torah Observant, does not speak against the Law and one that lays their life down for the Jewish People and the Nation of Israel. There are millions of people that claim to be followers of Jesus that are not Torah Observant (as a gentile is only required to be), they speak against the Torah and very few lay their life down for the sons and daughters of Israel. In fact, most that claim that they follow Jesus actually do the opposite.
Even Evangelical Christians (and I many that I would consider a good and trusted friend) would be considered the above. However, I have also seen a dramatic sea of change in that area as well that can ONLY come be explained by an "arousal from above because of the overwelming preponderance of the evidence of the arousal from below."
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 6:16pm
That may be all well in good Bat Teshuvah and true as well, however, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Authority of the Gentiles that makes me Jealous. The reason for this is they think that only Matthew - Revelations is only relevant. They only use the Law and the Prophets and the Writings when they want to prove a point.

Without the Law being valid, the New Covenant is invalid. It is as simple as that because the way they teach the New Covenant is blasphemous, Idolatrous and practices Alienation. I do not blame ANY Jew that does not recognize WHO Messiah ben David is with Christians attempting to teach them. I would reject it as well because they teach that Jesus is a False Prophet! And the Jesus that they preach is a False Prophet.
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 7:38pm
I would have to disagree with me being partially blind since I know many Gentiles that are Torah Observant (like a Gentile should be and not the taking of the Yoke of the Law that has NEVER been required of any Gentile). They make me VERY jealous for the Law and the Prophets. They also make my Jewish Friends that do NOT believe that Yeshua is the Messiah extremely Jealous.

Any Gentile that is Torah Observant to include practicing the Feasts of the L-rd or the Appointed Times of the L-rd, will make a Jew Jealous regardless if they know WHO Messiah ben David is. I know because I have seen it with my own eyes. Every none follower of Yeshua Torah Observant Jew looks at the Torah Refreshed and with New Eyes. I know many that have gone back to Study and Hashem did the speaking. I know many Jews that believe that Yeshua is Messiah ben David that do not DARE open their mouths due to alienation.
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 8:05pm
Well, of course I am Israel. I am from the House of David. Now, there is one exception to what I stated AND ONLY ONE.

One Evangelical Christian, Earl Cox, has gone into the most Ultra-Orthodox of homes/synagogues and they honored him by having the women and children eating at the same table with the men. They have told him that when Messiah comes, they will be with him. Earl has NEVER spoke to them about Yeshua. He does not feel that it is a requirement because there is NOTHING in the Nazerean Codocil that requires anyone to say anything to the Bnai Yisrael to convert them to a gentile religion such as Christianity that began in 325 c.e. at the Nicean Council. However, that does not mean they do not discuss WHO the Messiah of Israel with Earl, but he refuses to even attempt to convert. If he were to ever do that.he would loose everything that he has worked for to spread the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is of course the few, the proud, Evangelicals that serve in the IDF. They worship side by side with my Jewish brethren and NO ONE harms their brother - Jew or Gentile.
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 8:06pm
The fullness of the Gentiles happened in 1968 when we took the Temple Mount.
Comment by Yacov Shlomo on June 23, 2010 at 9:40pm
All Israel will be saved, according to Prophecy, right after the Earthquake in Jerusalem and part of Jerusalem falls. That is just after the 2 witnesses rise from the grave up into the air. I hear the footsteps of Messiah now.
Comment by Aish Tamid on June 25, 2010 at 12:38am
Book of moron... lol.

I had researched the Book of Mormon at one point- not the text itself, but rather its origins... Seems to have been spawned in a myriad of deceit and darkness.
Comment by Aish Tamid on June 25, 2010 at 9:42pm
Robert Robinson, there is a good deal of difference between accepting the apocrypha and accepting the Book of Mormon. Wouldn't you agree?
Comment by Aish Tamid on June 25, 2010 at 10:06pm
You make the harsh statement towards Christian, "You don't know anything about the Book of Mormon, try reading it sometime!!!!" then say "I never said what I believe the Book of Mormon." I have only to assume you intend to defend it (to some degree). The term "apocrypha"- despite its meaning- refers to a select group of writings. That's all I was using the term to mean.


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