Nazarene Space

The internal conflict between the inclination to do good, and the inclination to do evil, and how to win it! Donate by Paypal to donations@wnae.org

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Comment by Bruce kirk on March 13, 2019 at 12:15pm

Jake

the more i read yours, and James Post, the more i realize i should not be commenting on the subject, out of my depth, and my 1st time on a site like this...  both of your posts are packed full of study and Scripture.  I believe in all my heart Jesus has told me not to focus on sites like this, but rather spent time with Him.  

i have been using the excuse of sort of taking James challenge of seeing if this site or his teaching would give me some deep spiritual insight, that i might feel compelled to support his ministry.

That said, you seem to focus on Tongues, i read some of your article 20%... enough to get the gist of what your were saying..  i would like to ask you, what if i told you i have never spoke in Tongues, that i cannot recall during my 15 years as a born again Christian...( and i have no desire to speak in Tongues)  although i have had  two Christian brothers tell me they both have.  i believe them as brothers. One told me he never believed in tongues, but to make a long story short he ended up speaking in tongues, and i believe him, or better said, i have no reason to disbelieve him.  As i said above, i remember when GODS Precious Holy Spirit entered my Body, two maybe, three time over the last 15 years. and i remember no Tongues..

Would you question my conversion on a lack of speaking in Tongues?.... there are many paths to Jesus, and He paves them All, we all start from different backgrounds/locations in life, and our paths are somewhat tailor Made for us as individuals.  Along with different Gifts from GODS HOLY SPIRIT, is how i see it, a teaching that helps me, might not help you, and vice versa.

Thank you for your insight on your posts, however it mostly teaches me i am no intellect, and i must return to what Jesus has Instructed me to do, to simply spend Time with Him, and all that, in tails.    

With Respect and in love, hope to see you in the New Jerusalem.  good luck on your path with Jesus, you and James both...  i am the foolish things of the world, remember it is not an intellectual accent, but rather about LOVE & Faith.....i highlight love, because i think i see your faith all over your words..

May GOD Bless you both, in Jesus Great Name

Comment by James Trimm on March 13, 2019 at 6:56pm

Jake,

You clearly misunderstand my position, see the bog below which deals with your issue:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/messiah-and-the-defeat...

Remember, Messiah is the Torah and the Torah is the Messiah.

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 14, 2019 at 4:21am

Thanks Bruce,

I don't think I am in the position to question your conversion. I simply see in the NT that all of Jesus' followers spoke in tongues, which is why I have written the article (and because it's usually denied or demonized).

The above is not the gift of tongues, but a 'prayer language': "If I pray in tongues, my spirit prays." (1 COR 14:14)

Praying in the Spirit is important IMO, and it's mentioned throughout the Epistles - it's all in the file.

Hope that helps,

In Jesus' Love,

Jake

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 14, 2019 at 2:46pm

Hi James,

There’s no misunderstanding at all.

Torah frees us from the sin-nature, provides rebirth, and – by inference – eternal life. It’s the age-old satanic lie of Orthodox Judaism.

Presenting views of Yeshua-hating Rabbis in order to teach the true Nazarene faith is slightly misplaced IMO. “Since the time of Creation, man has had the power to do as he pleased, to be righteous or wicked”, says Ramban, one of the greatest Rabbis – so what? Truth is that since the fall, no man has ever had the power to do as he pleases but is held captive in sin (at least as per Scripture). Anyone with an ounce of spiritual insight knows that Egypt = world, Pharaoh = HaSatan, Sin = slavery, and that the only way of escape was the Red Sea Crossing, foreshadowing baptism: All were immersed by the hand of Moshe in the cloud and in the sea (1 COR 10:2). They didn’t escape by studying the mitzvot and trying to circumcise their hearts. I mean, how dumb can you get?

The heart’s circumcision occurs without any intervention of man, supernaturally – a heart operation as part of the New Covenant entry, performed through tevilah (no living water necessary though):

And by Him, you were circumcised with the Circumcision which is not by our hands, by the putting off of the flesh of sins [original sin], by circumcision of the Messiah. And you were buried with Him in immersion, and by Him, you have risen with Him, because you had trust in the Power of Eloah, who raised Him from the place of the dead (COL 2:11-12; cf. ROM 2:28-29).

As said, the New Covenant, activated on Shavuot 2,000 years ago foreshadowed Israel’s redemption at the Second Coming (the 120 were representatives of the 12 Tribes, the house of Judah and the house of Israel). Except for blinded Jewy, once the Messiah has returned it’ll be too late to get saved; people have had their chance.          

I had hoped to learn something about the Jewish backdrop, Hebraic mindset, etc. of first century followers of the Nazarene; I simply hadn’t realized that you promote Rabbinic Judaism under some Jesus-camouflage while trampling on the New Covenant and on Yeshua’s blood.

In closing, it’s sad to see your constant financial struggles and your wife’s poor health. If every one of the 3,300 so-called Sons of Light chips in a bit, you shouldn’t have any money problems, should you? Does not this alone show that there’s something very wrong with this Nazarene community?

And those who had a possession, sold it and distributed to each man according to whatever was needed (ACTS 2:45).

Blessings lekha,

Jake

Comment by James Trimm on March 14, 2019 at 5:46pm

Jake,

Some have wrongly taught that this circumcision of the heart is a new circumcision that has replaced physical circumcision of the flesh. However this circumcision of the heart was not a substitute for physical circumcision nor a substitute for Torah observance in general. To the contrary the Torah itself speaks of the circumcision of the heart:

40 And they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their treachery which they committed against Me: and also that they have walked contrary unto Me.
41 I also will walk contrary unto them, and bring them into the land of their enemies. If then perchance, their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then be paid the punishment of their iniquity,
42 Then will I remember My covenant with Ya’akov, and also My covenant with Yitz’chak, and also My covenant with Avraham will I remember: and I will remember the land.
(Lev. 26:40-42 HRV)

In Lev. 26 we read a series of curses which will come upon Israel for failing to observe the Torah, and the Torah refers to those who do not observe Torah as having an “uncircumcised heart”.

Next we read of circumcision of the heart in Deuteronomy:

16 Circumcise therefore, the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.
(Deut. 10:16 HRV)

In fact in this section of Torah we are told to circumcise our heart (Deut. 10:16) love YHWH with all our heart and keep his commandments (Deut. 11:1, 13) and place the Torah in our heart (Deut.11:18). Thus

circumcision of the heart would seem to involve loving YHWH and keeping his commandments and and placing the
Torah in our hearts:

1 Therefore you shall love YHWH your Elohim, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His ordinances, and His commandments, alway….
13 And it shall come to pass, if you shall hearken diligently unto My commandments which I command you this day, to love YHWH your Elohim, and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,…
18 Therefore shall you lay up these, My words, in your heart and in your soul. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes.
(Deut. 11:1, 13, 18 HRV)

Also as the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel also referred to the this circumcision of the heart:

4 Circumcise yourselves to YHWH, and take away the foreskins of your heart, you men of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim: lest My fury go forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
(Jer. 4:4 HRV)

24 (9:25) Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will punish all them that are circumcised in their uncircumcision:
25 (9:26) Egypt and Y’hudah, and Edom and the children of Ammon, and Mo’av and all that have the corners of their hair polled; that dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, but all the House of Yisra’el are uncircumcised in the heart.
(Jer. 9:24-25 (25-26) HRV)

9 Thus says the Adonai YHWH: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary–even any alien that is among the children of Yisra’el.
(Ezek. 44:9 HRV)

The circumcision of the heart is not a new “New Testament” replacement for the circumcision of the flesh. In fact the Torah and Prophets speak of the circumcision of the heart in terms of Torah observance (which by definition would include circumcision of the flesh).

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 15, 2019 at 5:07pm

James,

I'll try to keep this brief. I simply must assume that you have an agenda, viz. to lure ‘dumb Christians’ away from salvation (e.g., by convincing them that baptism isn’t necessary or causing them to get physically circumcised). I won’t list any of the dozens and dozens of verses, showing that baptism is imperative for salvation, as you'll explain them away anyway. I’ll only insert notes to the most important points; PCC = physically covenantally circumcised:

Some have wrongly taught that this circumcision of the heart is a new circumcision that has replaced physical circumcision of the flesh.

Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant, introduced 2,000 years ago by God. Jew and Gentile enter into the New Covenant by being Born Again. Jews continue to be PCC, but Gentiles must not – because the Abrahamic Covenant wasn’t given to them (PCC makes the Gentile part of natural Israel who is still enslaved to her fallen nature, which Torah condemns her for).

… nor a substitute for Torah observance in general. To the contrary the Torah itself speaks of the circumcision of the heart:

Because neither Israel nor Judah circumcised their hearts, the New Covenant was given. Israel incl. ‘aliens’ had broken Torah for 800 years, till they burned their own children to death 'as worship' (followed by exiles and the Seven Times Punishment). It didn’t work because of men’s fallen nature.

24 (9:25) Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will punish all them that are circumcised in their uncircumcision: 25 (9:26) Egypt and Y’hudah, and Edom and the children of Ammon, and Mo’av and all that have the corners of their hair polled; that dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, but all the House of Yisra’el are uncircumcised in the heart. (Jer. 9:24-25 (25-26) HRV)

All the listed people were physically circumcised and would be punished in the same way as Israel (because of inner uncircumcision). The self-righteous ‘but’ in verse 25 is not in the Hebrew, it says ‘and’.

9 Thus says the Adonai YHWH: No alien, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary–even any alien that is among the children of Yisra’el. (Ezek. 44:9 HRV)

No PCC for Gentiles so they may enter the Temple grounds, because only the Sons of Zadok will serve as priests (in violation of Torah, Israel had allowed the ben nay’char as priests).

the Torah and Prophets speak of the circumcision of the heart in terms of Torah observance (which by definition would include circumcision of the flesh).

This fallacy is explained above (only before the New Covenant, PCC was how the Gentile became part of Israel). Once a Jew or Gentile has entered the New Covenant, he is of course expected to keep the written Torah (not the oral) - that was the reason he was circumcised in heart through baptism - so he would finally keep the 'Renewed Mosaic Covenant' instead of breaking it (as far as applicable and considering the modifications Yeshua introduced). It should be obvious that now e.g. 'lusting after a woman' is considered adultery and not just 'jumping into bed with her' = Yeshua sharpened Mosaic Law, because He fulfilled, i.e. interpreted it correctly (not like the many idiotic, self-righteous rabbis). 

Comment by James Trimm on March 15, 2019 at 5:23pm

Baptism was not introduced 2,000 years ago.  It was and is a Jewish practice going back to the Torah.  I need to write a bog on this soon.  

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 16, 2019 at 7:18pm

Haha... LOL!

As long as your new blog won’t conclude with ‘always wash before eating’ I look forward to it.

Of course does baptism go back to Torah, what else? To the Bhagavad Gita?

I don’t think a particularly high IQ is needed to grasp that I wasn’t talking about the mikveh of priests and pots, or of Essenes, or lepers, or women after their monthly period.

Has it ever occurred to you that the Torah and the Prophets point to Yeshua? That the Tanakh is full of types for which the B’rit Hadashah provides the antitypes? What could the healing of Naaman have foreshadowed? What could the cleansing of vessels or of priests have foreshadowed? You should have joined Sunday School more regularly, then you’d know the answer [joke].

You may vaguely recall that Jewish guy who died at the stake, rose again, and the first thing He said to his talmidim upon showing his nail marks was: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit!”

Do you think any significance could lie in this? Don’t you think it was fairly special that He got out of that grave on day three? That a few weeks after the resurrection (foreshadowed by the Yam Suph Crossing), for the first time in the history of mankind, God’s Spirit filled the Beit HaMikdash by manifesting tongues of fire, followed by the disciples manifesting tongues? Ever read in Scripture that Yeshua’s followers are sanctified temples? Ever heard that 50 days after the Exodus the Shekinah of God descended on Mt. Sinai and that there was fire? Do you think there could be any connection, or is that too farfetched? Let’s not forget that the Torah which Israel had broken was given 50 days after Passover, which may hint at the possibility that 50 days after Passover the Torah was given again, but now written on tables of flesh instead of stone. Isn’t there a slight possibility that the Covenant which Israel and Judah had broken was renewed on that day and in that way as Jeremiah had described it, i.e. by putting God’s Spirit into man, especially as Jeremiah had used the term B’rit Hadashah which Yeshua did too when referring to His blood which He was about to shed? (‘blood’ as a cleansing agent goes back to the Torah, it’s typically Jewish :-)

But, hold on – it couldn’t have been the New Covenant because the Ten Tribes weren’t present. Oh no, – I feel so sorry for that widow from the tribe of Asher, all alone in Judah without a single companion of the Lost Ten Tribes. And I also feel sorry for Judah for keeping Pesach for centuries without Israel and thus in constant violation of Torah. And is it not unjust that only Judah was exiled between 70 and 135 CE, and only Judah ended up in Auschwitz, though the Torah had pronounced curses against all Israel? Well, God must have changed his mind then. After all, even our renowned Rashi says that the 10 Tribes are permanently lost and will not even re-join Judah in the time of the Messiah. Now if Rashi says so, then God couldn’t have possibly made a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house Judah 2,000 years ago, because the house of Israel wasn’t there, and because Rashi was one of the greatest Jewish scholars of medieval times. He was so great that it doesn’t matter if Simeon was located south of Judah, or that Hezekiah observed Pesach together with Ephraimites, or that Ezra listed Ten-tribed Israelites among the returnees.

Any doubts, James? Who’s right, Rashi or Scripture? Sorry, I forgot – unless I’m mistaken you’ve never repented, nor been baptized in water and Spirit. In other words, when you read the Tanakh the veil is still upon your heart, right? Your mind is still blinded, right? You’re still dead in sin, right? Still under the curse of the law, right? No point in asking you then.

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 16, 2019 at 7:19pm

[contd.]

Anyway, coming back to your keen objection that baptism wasn’t introduced 2,000 years ago. The only kind of baptism I’ve been talking about, the baptism for New Covenant entry, was (as far as I know) introduced 2,000 years ago, simply because 2,000 years ago was the New Covenant ratified with the Son’s blood and the Father’s Spirit (though I’m sure we’d find some revered rabbis who say it all happened after the Babylonian exile).

Show me one verse in the Tanakh where through water baptism a person is a) forgiven all their sins ever committed in life and b) freed from their sinful Adamic nature. Usually I always ask for 2-3 witnesses but because it’s you, one verse will do.

To finish off, let me assure you, James, that as per Torah, unless you obey ACTS 2:38 and stop robbing people of their salvation, preventing people to get saved, and using Yeshua as a bait to turn ‘dumb Christians’ into even ‘dumber Orthodox Jews’, you will burn in the lowest regions of Gehenna for all eternity (no matter if some smiling rabbis waffle about purgatory). Make no mistake - you will never, ever get out of there.

Shalom,

Jake

Comment by James Trimm on March 17, 2019 at 3:27am

Water immersion - Called in Judaism "t'villa" there are three types of water baptism:

a) Baptism for uncleanness - The Mosaic Torah requires "washings" for "uncleanness" (Lev. 13-15) which can sometimes result from sin (Lev. 18:1ff). King David was aware of this "washing" for cleansing from sin (Ps. 51:2, 7). The Qumran community are known to have engaged in this type of immersion as early as 150 B.C.E. (1Qs Col. 3 line 4f; Col 5 line 13; Damascus Document Col. 10,lines 10-13). John the Baptist also taught this immersion(Mt. 3:6, 11; Mk. 1:4-5; Lk. 3:2-3, 7; Acts 19:3-4). The first century Jewish historian Josephus recorded that John "...commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards one another, and piety towards G-d, and so to come to baptism [immersion] for that the washing would be acceptable..." (Josepus; Ant. 18:5:2) Note that this was a Jewish ritual being participated in by Pharisees and Saducees (Mk. 1:5; Mt. 3:5-7 with Lk. 3:7).


b. Immersion to initiate Priests (and later Rabbis) (Lev. 8:6)

c. Immersion for conversion - Immersion for conversion is also a Jewish practice:

A Ger who is circumcised and not immersed;
Rabbi Eliezer said: Behold this is a Ger
Thus we find of the fathers, they were circumcised and not immersed.
Immersed and not circumcised:
Rabbi Joshua said: Behold this is a Ger
Thus we find of the mothers, they were immersed and not circumcised.
And the sages say:
Immersed and not circumcised
Circumcised and not immersed
He is not a Ger until he is circumcised and immersed.
(b.Yev. 46a)

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