Nazarene Space

The internal conflict between the inclination to do good, and the inclination to do evil, and how to win it! Donate by Paypal to donations@wnae.org

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Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 4:44pm

The flood destroyed the corrupted earth and all sinful flesh thereon. It’s the perfect type for water baptism because the purpose of water baptism is to wash away your sins (not dirt) and cleanse your heart, i.e. destroy your flesh, i.e. cut away the foreskin of your heart, i.e. your old man (the fallen Adam). Water baptism means death; you’re buried into the death of Christ just as someone is buried at the graveyard (wholly covered with soil or water respectively). Water baptism is your death penalty, your crucifixion – “My old man has been crucified”, says Paul somewhere, “and yet I live”. Before you can be resurrected, you need to die (the carnal Jewish mind doesn’t grasp that, of course).

Just for fun, here are the main bits of 1 Peter 3:20-21 (picking up from the survivors of the deluge):

New International Version were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also…

New Living Translation were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you…

English Standard Version were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…

Berean Study Bible were saved through water. And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also…

Berean Literal Bible were saved through water, which also prefigures the baptism now saving you…

New American Standard Bible were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you…

King James Bible souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us…

Christian Standard Bible were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…

Contemporary English Version were brought safely through the flood. Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you…

Good News Translation were saved by the water, which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you…

Holman Christian Standard Bible were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…

International Standard Version were saved by water. Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also…

NET Bible were delivered through water. And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you…

New Heart English Bible were saved by means of water. This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you…

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 4:49pm

Aramaic Bible in Plain English were kept alive by water. For you also are saved in it by that simile in baptism…

GOD'S WORD® Translation were saved by water. Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you…

New American Standard 1977 were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you…

Jubilee Bible 2000 souls were saved by water. Unto the figure of which the baptism that does now correspond saves us…

King James 2000 Bible souls were saved through water. The like figure unto which even baptism does also now save us…

American King James Version souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us…

American Standard Version were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism…

Douay-Rheims Bible souls, were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also…

Darby Bible Translation were saved through water: which figure also now saves you, [even] baptism…

English Revised Version were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism…

Webster's Bible Translation were saved by water. The like figure to which, even baptism, doth also now save us…

Weymouth New Testament were brought safely through the water. And, corresponding to that figure, the water of baptism now saves you…

World English Bible were saved through water. This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you…

Young's Literal Translation were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us – baptism…

If I asked a six-year-old what the above means, then he would stop for a moment and then tell me with a broad smile: “Water saves us!” J.

Now, if I were the devil or a Jew who hates Yeshua and wanted to destroy souls, I would insist that all of these translations are Gentile, anti-Semitic, heretic corruptions stemming from Rome, and that only the original Hebrew or Aramaic gives the true sense – LOL :-) (my best friend is Jewish, fluent in Hebrew, born again of water and Spirit, with the sign of tongues – just to avoid misunderstandings). Replacing “to be saved” with “live” is a devilish but nevertheless pathetic attempt to obscure salvation. Salvation depends on having spiritual life which only the New Covenant baptism provides (spiritual death = eternal death). Only dummies fall for this trick, James.

[Spiritual immersion] … is received by faith (Gal. 3:2,5; 1Pt. 3:20-21 with Heb. 11:7).

Again, the immersion of the world in water (not in Spirit) rather denotes water baptism, no?

Fair enough, though 1 PET 3:20-21 doesn’t exclusively relate to water baptism, it does emphasize it very strongly.

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 4:58pm

Water baptism is obviously not “received by faith” but by being baptised with water – you can feel the water, it’s wet, it’s cold or warm, it’s refreshing… something tangible happens. Noah didn’t just sit there and received the flood by faith, hoping that all will be well.

Neither is Spirit baptism “received by faith”, hoping that all will be well while watching the paint dry. There is a manifestation. The Spirit of God raised Yeshua from the dead; together with the waters she (the Holy Spirit) birthed the Light of the World; she filled the Temple and the priests couldn’t stand, etc. – don’t you think that was miraculous? Wouldn’t you expect some manifestation when someone receives the POWER FROM ON HIGH, i.e. the POWER OF GOD? Or have you listened for too long to some smiling Pope: “Now you have accepted Christ, my child; you believe and have received the Spirit by faith. Just believe it :-). Thank you, Father. Is that it? Can I go home now?”

Why do you think Yeshua said: “These signs will follow those who believe: in My Name, they will cast out shadim, and they will speak with new tongues.” Do you think you can cast out demons without being Spirit-filled? Ever tried? Ever performed a miracle? Ever had a verse revealed by the Holy Spirit? (unlikely, because you don’t have His Spirit dwelling in you). Yeshua anticipates of what His talmidim will do after His ascension, and it is all dependent of having received the Holy Spirit – and for receiving the Holy Spirit you need faith: THESE SIGNS WILL FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Those who believed were Kefa, Sha’ul, and all the other guys, the Nazarenes who turned the world upside down (entirely normal for a Nazarene). Wanna join?

All believers, therefore, have been immersed into Messiah (Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:27),

Says Cardinal Ratzinger. No manifestation, nothing – contrary to Scripture. Just a religious smile and the confession: “I’ve received the Spirit by faith” (while demons laugh themselves sick; they know the scriptures).

Romans 6:4

“Buried with Him in immersion to death” = water baptism

“Raised up from the dead” = Spirit baptism

On which grounds do you claim that GAL 3:27 has nothing to do with water baptism?

For a sane person, it’s obvious that Yeshua gave us an example to follow when He was baptised in water, followed by the descent of the dove. Both water and Spirit baptism are integral parts of entering the New Covenant – following the Second Adam (Yeshua) entails a) death = water baptism and b) resurrection = Spirit baptism. This results in a new creation, a new Adam without the fallen nature and with a quickened spirit (I couldn’t care less that mainstream-Judaism rejects the concept of ‘original sin’ – surprise, surprise – working up their way to heaven like the other Catholic idolaters).

Seeing your satanic heresy of (deliberately) excluding water baptism as a vehicle for salvation, plus your willing confusion as to which verses or verse fragments refer to water baptism and which ones to Spirit baptism, here are some types-antitypes:

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 5:33pm

Water Baptism                                            Spirit Baptism                                    Result

(Yochanan’s Baptism)                                  (Yeshua’s Baptism)

Destroying the temple                                  Raising up the temple                          New temple

Destroying the earth by water                      Restoring the earth by wind                 New earth

Cleansing the earth with water                     Cleansing the earth with fire                New earth

Removing the old nature                              Imparting a new nature                        New man

Smiting Jacob’s flesh                                    Changing Jacob’s name                      New man

Circumcising the heart                                  Filling the heart                                    New heart

Taking away the stony heart                         Providing a fleshy heart                       New heart

Cutting the foreskin of the heart                   Subjecting the soul to the spirit            New heart

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 5:43pm

Immersing Israel in the sea                           Immersing Israel in the cloud               Salvation

Swallowing Jonah                                         Releasing Jonah                                   Salvation

Physical death                                              Spiritual life                                           Salvation

Crucifixion                                                     Resurrection                                         Salvation

Penalty                                                          Reward                                                 Salvation

Pouring out blood                                          Pouring out Spirit                                  Salvation

Smiting the Rock                                           Drinking from the Rock                         Salvation

Slaying the lamb for the firstborn                  Birthing the church of the firstborn        Salvation

Drenching the sacrifice with water                Consuming the sacrifice with fire           Victory

Cleansing the temple                                    Filling the temple                                    Joy

Washing in His blood                                    Drinking His blood                                  Life

[TBC]                        

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 5:50pm

Mowing the grass                                           Watering the grass                                 Life

Killing the flesh                                               Reviving the spirit                                   Life

Renting the veil                                              Reconciling with God                             Love

Removing the partition                                   Reconciling with man                             Love

Trimming the lamp                                         Filling the lamp                                       Light

Cutting animals in pieces                              Lamp passing between the pieces         Covenant

Noach would have died on his boat had God not dried the earth by wind (ruach), and Yisrael would have drowned in the sea had God not parted it by wind (ruach). Water & Spirit baptism always go together.

we all have "the Spirit of Messiah",

Says fallen, carnal, self-righteous, rebellious and religious humanity.

How do you know? When/how did you receive the Holy Spirit, James, and what happened? Sweet nothing? Did you light a candle?

…which is the Spirit which raised Messiah(Rom. 8:9-11) in our hearts (Gal. 4:6; Eph. 3:17).

The two previous verses refer to both water and Spirit baptism, thus it is not simply “the Spirit which raised Messiah.” 

ROM 8:9-11

But if the Messiah is in you, the body is dead because of sin [water baptism], but the spirit is alive because of righteousness [Spirit baptism] (vs. 10)

All the Roman brethren had received the Holy Spirit, which is why all of them spoke in tongues, i.e. they were able to pray in the Spirit – Romans 8:26-27.

GAL 4:6

As prophesied by Jeremiah – God’s Spirit put into man’s heart. A new-born always cries; it’s a manifestation that it’s alive (if not, it’s dead). As soon as man’s dead spirit is made alive, the Spirit releases a language (‘crying, Abba’). As in the natural, so in the spiritual.

EPH 3:17

As all the other messianic assemblies, also the Ephesians had received the Spirit (which is why all of them spoke in tongues and were thus able to wage spiritual warfare by praying in the Spirit, cf. EPH 6:18)

[TBC]

 

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 5:55pm

This is the "Spirit of G-d" (1Jn. 4:12-13), or the "Holy Spirit" (1Cor. 6:19; 1Thes.4:8).

Again, let’s remind ourselves that you build your line of argument deliberately on a false claim and thus your conclusions are spurious. Previous verses listed by you such as ROM 6:3-4; 8:9-11 or 1 PET 3:20-21 don’t refer exclusively to Spirit baptism, thus to assert, “This is the Spirt of God” is plain bogus.    

1 JN 4:12-13

Love = agape (generated through the Spirit); all of them were anointed (1 JN 2:27).

Ever heard of priest who “received the anointing” by faith? Without any manifestation? No sensation of oil being poured on his head and running down his beard (because in reality no one had anointed him). He simply “received the anointing by faith” :-) 

1 COR 6:19

Also the Corinthians had received the Holy Spirit (with the sign of tongues) which those who believe would receive (cf. 1 COR 14:18 = Paul encouraged the entire assembly to pray more in tongues, i.e. to spend more time praying in the Spirit).

Thus we were all saved by receiving the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" by faith.

Says the Jesuit and the Rabbi while holding hands. Let’s check the verse listed next:

If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, as the Scriptures have said, rivers of water of Life will flow from his belly. And He spoke this about the Spirit, that those who believed in Him were about to receive. (JN 7:37-39)

This passage is surely comparable with:

If you knew the gift of Eloah, and who this is who said to you, Give me to drink, you would ask him and he would give you water of life. Every man who drinks from the water that I give him will not thirst forever; but the water that I give him will be in him a spring of water that will spring up unto eternal life. (JN 4:10, 14)

…which in turn is linked to:

The hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipper will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth, for indeed the Father seeks worshippers who are like these. Eloah is Spirit, and those who worship Him, ought to worship in Spirit and in truth. (JN 4:23-24)

How does one worship in Spirit?

The person who speaks in another tongue is speaking to God [praying/worshipping]; he speaks [prays] in the Spirit. (1 COR 14:2, paraphrased)

I remember the moment when the Holy Spirit filled me as if it was yesterday: like electricity, power, warmth, joy… and then those syllables which poured out of my mouth like rivers of living water coming out of the belly (heart/spirit) – tongues. It’s the refreshing which Yeshayahu foresaw (ISA 28:12) and which Sha’ul confirms: He who speaks in a tongue edifies his nefesh (1 COR 14:4).

(see also Jn. 7:37-39; 14:7; Acts 10:44; 11:15-17; 15:8-9).

You manage to list three passages from ACTS which relate to Spirit baptism, without mentioning that people always began to speak in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit. Congratulations, James – you are truly a diabolic genius. Anyone who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit began to speak in tongues (‘crying, Abba’):

All of them were filled with Ruach HaKodesh, and they began to speak in other tongues (ACTS 2:4)

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 6:00pm

The gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also poured out upon the Goyim! For they heard them speaking in tongues. (ACTS 10:46)

The Ruach HaKodesh rested upon them like upon us from before [because they began to speak in tongues as we did on Shavuot]. (ACTS 11:15)

The Ruach HaKodesh came upon them, and they spoke in tongues. (ACTS 19:6)

And speaking in tongues is not only visible:

Shim’on saw that by the placing of a hand of the emissaries the Ruach HaKodesh was given. (ACTS 8:18)

… but audible too:

The wind will blow where it wants, and you hear its sound… Thus is every man who is born of the Spirit. (JN 3:8)

He has poured out this gift (of the Holy Spirit), which, behold, you see and hear (ACTS 2:33)

And lastly…

Chananyah placed a hand upon him and said to Shaul, “Yeshua… has sent me so that your eyes might be opened, and you might be filled with the Ruach HaKodesh.” And immediately something that was like unto scales, fell from his eyes, and his eyes were opened (ACTS 9:17-18)

We know that ‘Rabbi Sha’ul’ (:-) spoke in tongues and that he spend a lot of time praying in the Spirit. When shall we suppose did he start to speak in tongues for the first time? At Christmas? Could it be when he received the Holy Spirit and his blindness was cured as described in the verses above?

Thus, we clearly see that NOTHING happens when you receive the Holy Spirit :-). There is NO MANIFESTATION WHATSOEVER, NEVER EVER – after all, the Rambam says so :-) (or whoever).

Despite the fact that the Scriptures are quite clear on the subject, many Charismatics teach that Holy Spirit baptism is a sort of "second grace" subsequent and independent of salvation. In an attempt to defend this position Charismatics will often point to certain exceptional events in Acts (Acts 5:32; 8:14-19; 9:17; 19:2) to "prove" their second grace doctrine. In the following we shall deal with each of these:

That the “second grace” is nonsense (which it is), is pretty irrelevant for our discussion, but it’s called ‘DIVERT’ and CONQUER, as it helps do ram the venom down the victims’ throats. I personally have been speaking in tongues for 27 years (since the day I repented and got water baptised). I have also operated the “gift of tongues” (which isn’t mentioned in ACTS), the gift of interpretation and prophecy. I have seen legs grow within seconds in the name of Yeshua the Messiah (and people relieved from back pain), and have demons discerned (admittedly, not cast out). Besides, I keep Shabbat, the Festivals of Israel, the food laws as per Leviticus, have an untrimmed beard, and wear tzitziot – I observe the Written uncorrupted Torah – I am a NAZARENE! What are you, James?

Acts 5:32 - "...those who obey him..." This verse does not say that they received the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they obeyed, only that they both OBEYED AND RECEIEVED.

Let’s be game and look up ACTS 5:32 in the HRV:

And we are witnesses of these words, and the Ruach HaKodesh, that Eloah gives to those who believe in Him.

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 6:02pm

In the Greek NT (which you probably despise) ‘obey’ and ‘believe’ are used synonymously. Even if you deny this, someone who believes will obey (unlike you). You do your usual twist – the verse clearly implies that the ‘3,000 plus’ who had received the Holy Spirit up to that point had believed/obeyed, which is the condition for receiving the Holy Spirit. Likewise, anyone wanting to receive the Holy Spirit in the future has to believe/obey; God will not give His Spirit to someone in whose heart He sees wilful disobedience (such as despising water baptism for example).

Acts 8:14-19 - Here we do find real subsequence. This was an exceptional case in which the traditional rivals of the Jews (see Jn. 4:9) known as Samaritans were becoming part of the Body for the first time. The Samaritans rejected the Jewish authority (Jn. 4:21) despite the fact that the Jewish people were those to whom G-d had entrusted his oracles (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:4; Jn.4:22). If the Samaritans were to accept Jewish emissaries as their leaders, then they would have to see with their own eyes that these Jews were those entrusted with G-d's oracles. They had to have Jews actually lay hands on them and GIVE them the Holy Spirit proving themselves to be G-d's chosen instrument. This was definitely a unique event, and not the norm.

Really? I received the Holy Spirit evidenced by the sign of tongues after a Gentile had laid hands on me, and I am a goy. So John’s disciples in ACTS 19:6 upon whom Paul laid his hands were Samaritans? And Paul himself was also a Samaritan which is why Chananyah laid hands on him? (ACTS 9:17) Does Rashi agree with you, James, or has he never read the B’rit Hadashah? Your often posed question, “What other ministry provides this kind of teaching?” can be surely answered with, “No other!” I’ve never read so much nonsense in all my life in so few sentences. The laying on of hands was quite a common practice (cf. 1 TIM 5:22; HEB 6:22)

Acts 9:17 - The text does not tell us that Shaul was saved prior to this time.

Covered above.

Acts 19:2-7 - Here Shaul encounters a group of Jews who were disciples (students) of Yochanan (Acts 19:3-4) but not of Y'shua (Acts 19:5). They had believed something (Acts 19:2) and received the baptism of Yochanan (water baptism) but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2, 5).

Because they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit (like you), Paul strengthened their faith in Yeshua’s promise to baptise with ‘fire’, upon which they received and spoke in tongues.

The truth is that all believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1:3)

The lie is that all believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Yes, the ones who are saved are blessed, i.e. the ones who have believed and obeyed, i.e. the ones who have repented and a) were baptised in water and b) baptised in Spirit. They were delivered from the power of darkness and translated into God’s kingdom (not you, James – you’re cursed).

and all believers already have the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9).

Both scriptures were explained already further above.

  1. Immersion of fire - In Matt. 3:10-12, this seems to be a fiery judgement to come. To what extent this immersion may be identified with the spiritual emersion depends on the reading of Mt. 3:11.

No, it doesn’t – the context makes it clear. One just needs to read the comparable verses:

Behold I am only immersing you in water to repentance. And He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry, and He will immerse you with the fire of the Ruach HaKodesh. (MT 3:11)

[TBC] 

Comment by Jake Wilson on March 20, 2019 at 6:03pm

Behold, I immerse you with water: but One who is greater than me will come; the straps of whose sandals, I am not worthy to loose. He will immerse you with fire, and with the Ruach HaKodesh. (LK 3:16)

If you hate the truth that ‘immersion in fire’ = ‘immersion in the Spirit’ (Spirit baptism), then you will explain it away. But if you love the truth, it’s quite clear. Which is why Yeshua said:

He commanded them that they should not depart from Yerushalayim, but that they should wait for the promise of the Father, which you have heard from me. For Yochanan immersed in water, but you will be immersed in Ruach HaKodesh after not many days. But when the Ruach HaKodesh comes upon you, you will receive power, and you will be witnesses for me. (Acts 1:4-5, 8)

Was there a manifestation of fire when the talmidim received the Holy Spirit in Yerushalayim on Shavuot? No? Nothing?

How do you think fallen creation will be restored? Well, first water baptism (which occurred in Noah’s day) and then fire baptism which is about to occur – nuclear supposedly. The result will be a new earth, a new creation. If you want to become a new creature, you need to follow the same pattern.

Here both the Shem Tob and DuTillet Hebrew versions read "fire of the Holy Spirit" while the Old Syriac (S) Aramaic has "fire and the Holy Spirit" and Old Syriac (C) Aramaic; the Peshitta Aramaic and the Greek have "Holy Spirit and fire."

James, you’re guilty of “walking in craftiness and defrauding the Word of Eloah” or “handling the Word of God deceitfully” as the KJV puts it (2 COR 4:2). Seeing your pitiful appeals for money (though 3,300 members is surely a joke) it is very obvious that you have been terribly cursed for what you’re doing. If I were you I would simply repent, give up “Nazarene Space” even if it’s half of your life’s work (keep the good bits if any), and get saved – even if you need to take on a job as a cleaner afterwards. That is all what counts, James – save yourself and your wife, and as many as you can. It doesn’t matter what your phylactery-licking ‘friends’ say; there’s not much time left, and Yeshua loves you still.

Please don’t reply with another lengthy message listing all the things I’ve misunderstood – in that case let’s just agree to disagree.

Once you’ve received the Holy Spirit though, feel free to drop me a line: jakewilson888@gmail.com

Shalom,

Jake

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