Nazarene Space

The internal conflict between the inclination to do good, and the inclination to do evil, and how to win it! Donate by Paypal to donations@wnae.org

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Comment by James Trimm on March 17, 2019 at 3:27am

2. Spiritual immersion - This immersion was distinct from water immersion (Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Acts 11:16; 19:2-4). The Scriptures tell us that we were all immersed (baptized) into the one Body of Messiah, by one Spirit (1Cor. 12:13). This (not water baptism) is the immersion which saves us (1Pt. 3:21) and is received by faith (Gal. 3:2,5; 1Pt. 3:20-21 with Heb. 11:7). All believers, therefore, have been immersed into Messiah (Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:27), we all have "the Spirit of Messiah", which is the Spirit which raised Messiah(Rom. 8:9-11) in our hearts (Gal. 4:6; Eph. 3:17). This is the "Spirit of G-d" (1Jn. 4:12-13), or the "Holy Spirit" (1Cor. 6:19; 1Thes.4:8). Thus we were all saved by receiving the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" by faith. (see also Jn. 7:37-39; 14:7; Acts 10:44; 11:15-17; 15:8-9). Despite the fact that the Scriptures are quite clear on the subject, many Charismatics teach that Holy Spirit baptism is a sort of "second grace" subsequent and independent of salvation. In an attempt to defend this position Charismatics will often point to certain exceptional events in Acts (Acts 5:32; 8:14-19; 9:17; 19:2) to "prove" their second grace doctrine. In the following we shall deal with each of these:

Acts 5:32 - "...those who obey him..." This verse does not say that they received the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they obeyed, only that they both OBEYED AND RECEIEVED.
Acts 8:14-19 - Here we do find real subsequence. This was an exceptional case in which the traditional rivals of the Jews (see Jn. 4:9) known as Samaritans were becoming part of the Body for the first time. The Samaritans rejected the Jewish authority (Jn. 4:21) despite the fact that the Jewish people were those to whom G-d had entrusted his oracles (Rom. 3:1-2; 9:4; Jn.4:22). If the Samaritans were to accept Jewish emissaries as their leaders, then they would have to see with their own eyes that these Jews were those entrusted with G-d's oracles. They had to have Jews actually lay hands on them and GIVE them the Holy Spirit proving themselves to be G-d's chosen instrument. This was definitely a unique event, and not the norm.
Acts 9:17 - The text does not tell us that Shaul was saved prior to this time.
Acts 19:2-7 - Here Shaul encounters a group of Jews who were disciples (students) of Yochanan (Acts 19:3-4) but not of Y'shua (Acts 19:5). They had believed something (Acts 19:2) and received the baptism of Yochanan (water baptism) but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2, 5). The truth is that all believers have been blessed with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1:3) and all believers already have the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9).


3. Immersion of fire - In Matt. 3:10-12, this seems to be a fiery judgement to come. To what extent this immersion may be identified with the spiritual emersion depends on the reading of Mt. 3:11. Here both the Shem Tob and DuTillet Hebrew versions read "fire of the Holy Spirit" while the Old Syriac (S) Aramaic has "fire and the Holy Spirit" and Old Syriac (C) Aramaic; the Peshitta Aramaic and the Greek have "Holy Spirit and fire."

Comment by Bruce kirk on Monday

Jake,

i am rereading all the posts under this video, a second, even a third time, along with your tongues article and 1 by James.

My beliefs are pretty much set, however 3 things you said (or quoted) that i believe you have mentioned,  i would like your opinion if you please. ( in a world full of false teachers and misdirection i am interested in what you may understand)

1) you quoted the Spirit (Mother) interesting i believe this however i dont often share my understanding with others, or hear this often, you seemed to have quoted a Jewish source/belief?  this 1st one is not that important to me, i have been shown a Truth, so i dont need convincing, in fact i may even delete this 1st question.

2) Purgatory you mentioned, until recently i never believed in such a place, however about a month ago i had an out of body experience and i believe i spent some time there ( there were no signs that said Purgatory, just i believed this is were i was visiting) Just curious your thought ( quick beliefs on Purgatory and how it works in your opinion?)

3) you said or alluded to that we are under the law but not the statutes, i believe this recently, however i just believe in pursuing/under the Law of Love. ( freed from the law of sin and death) have Love 1st and this fulfills all the Law, and Faith of course.

So i dont keep the Sabbath, do you?, and if so what date Saturday, Sunday?, i dont keep the Sabbath because i dont want to try and keep any on the Law of sin and death, as i understand things, as Paul says, but rather focus on having Love 1st, which fits into what your saying about being Ruled and Reigned by Love, if you think about it, a choice whom will we serve?, however i am not trying to preach, but rather pick brain as to your understanding on what you personally believe has been revealed to you?

i ask and speak the Truth as i understand my walk, if i am found to be a unrepentant lier this may not go well for me or any of us. so i humbly seek/search, and will freely share any of my walk if directly asked...

in love

Bruce

Comment by Bruce kirk on Monday

Jake

i have no issue with you saying one has to be water baptized in order to be saved (if thats your belief), ( and we most assuredly need The Baptism OF GODS Precious Holy Spirit/ born from above, or water Baptism would mean nothing in my understanding)

how would you answer, regarding the repentant thief on the cross? that was not baptized?

Bruce,

i might even go google to see what answers comes up.

Comment by Bruce kirk on Tuesday

i found an answer that said the New Covenant didnt start until after Jesus death...so basically Jesus forgives his sins, which in hind site Jesus Teaches us He had the Authority to do

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

Hi James,

Don’t you think that the immersion of 3,000 Yehudim in the mikvaot on the Southern Steps of the Temple Mount 2,000 years ago, in the name of Yeshua HaMashiach (= God the Son) for the remission of all their sins and for the circumcision made without hands which cut away their Adamic nature, was something different than the above washings? Kind of life-changing?

Or do you instead prefer the washing of hands before eating a cheeseburger? (or sorry, for sure you don’t eat meat & milk together :-)

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

Hi James,

Before commenting on the rest your of your message, I’d like to say a few general words (even at the risk of missing the mark at times).

This may be getting a bit longer than expected, but it’s my last message to you on this forum, so please bear with me.

I don’t have anything against a good ‘fight’ nor against a certain bias as we’re all biased in some way. Debating Scripture is a healthy thing to do, and over the last years I often had to admit that I was wrong.

This last reply or yours, however, shows that despite knowing the Scriptures, you seem to be ‘driven’ to uphold a heresy which will eventually destroy you and the ones who believe you. Your doctrine is clearly anti-Nazarene, anti-Yeshua HaMashiach, or anti-Christian (whatever term you prefer):

Woe to you, scribes and P'rushim, hypocrites: who close the Kingdom of Heaven against the sons of men. For you enter not yourselves, neither do you allow them that are eager, to enter. (MT 23:13)

And anyone who causes one of these little ones who have trust in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if the millstone of an ass were placed on his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (MK 9:42)

Whether some demons whisper into your ears, or whether you think it is your ‘own resolve’, you are clearly used by the adversary. Your hatred of Yeshua and the salvation He has provided, seems to be so vicious and deep-seated that you won’t shrink back from ‘establishing doctrine’ if it serves to erode the New Covenant (which hasn’t been given yet in your opinion, but you won’t spill the beans).

Only in cuckoo land do people receive salvation by way of inheritance while spurning water baptism and falsely assuming their Spirit baptism.

As all false teachers, you often begin your articles by warning about false teachers and present a mix of truth and error (the latter outweighing the former by far), supposedly restoring the Nazarene faith only to entice people in your choice of Judaism which is not the faith of Yeshua’s followers (as if any of them would have had anything to do with the manifold Jewish perversions such as wearing a tallit, a kippah or the stupid teffilin for instance – not to mention the occult ‘Star of David’ and the pagan fish or cross symbol). The fact that you have presumably appointed yourself as a Nasi of the Nazarene Sanhedrin (who would obviously decide which facets of Judaism are compatible with the Nazarene faith – LOL :-) this fact shows that you really ‘lost it’ a long time ago.

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

Seeing His disdain for the ‘Tradition of the Elders’, Yeshua would probably bin 95 % of the Talmud and 95 % of the Zohar if He were here, hence, the term “Messiah of Judaism” seems somewhat unbecoming. From the outset, it is entirely irrelevant to which extent Essenic or Pharisaic thought may have had an influence on the Nazarenes, especially if a non-Nazarene teaches it, i.e. someone who’s not born of God, not cleansed from his fallen nature and not filled with His Spirit, in other words, someone who’s not born of water and Spirit (“the Israel of God” (GAL 6:16), viz. the Jews and Gentiles who had believed/obeyed and repented, were all baptised in water and fire, i.e. with the Spirit).

Mainstream-Judaism denies both man’s fallen nature as well as man’s eternal damnation and links this position with the satanic lie that Israel will gain eternal life through Torah obedience just as Catholics will earn eternal life by licking St. Peter’s big toe in the St. Peter’s Basilica once a year (this is exaggerated, but people really kiss the statues’ feet).

As there’s not a single verse in the Tanakh which upholds this notion, you have created a fallacy which indirectly supports this idea, viz. by rigorously equating Torah with Yeshua: “If eternal life comes from Yeshua, then eternal life is linked to Torah study and practice, besides to receiving His Messiahship in faith”. Though the 613 mitzvot were slightly modified by Yeshua, while emphasizing the Pentateuch (or at the most the Tanakh) you don’t emphasize that Torah comprises the entire ‘instruction’ which God has given, including the commandment to get baptised in water and all the other precepts in the B’rit Hadashah (which are around 1,000 in number). The Messiah is the goal of the Torah (ROM 10:4), i.e. all the instructions from God – if obeyed – will ideally and eventually change you into the image of Yeshua, that is the goal: becoming as the Second Adam, the risen one – not the fallen one.

If Yeshua has redeemed us from the curse of the Torah (GAL 3:13), then it would seem odd to claim without further explanation that Torah has redeemed us from the curse of the Torah. Paul/Sha’ul, the emissary to the goyim, wrote the Letter to the Galatians around 50 CE some ten years after the first Gentiles had been saved. The question of Gentile circumcision was the main subject, and it would be ludicrous to assert with rabbinic self-assuredness: “There were no Gentiles in the Galatian assembly, not a single one!” Now, how can Gentiles, who have never been under the Law of Moses, be redeemed from its curse which was only pronounced upon Israel in case of disobedience?

The answer is, because in this verse Paul isn’t speaking only about the Mosaic Covenant but also about the Edenic. Mosaic Law with all its nitty-gritty was codified at Mt. Sinai, but you and I know that the essence of Torah had always been around and was passed on from the very beginning. Even though God’s instructions to Adam were few and simple, the mitzvah not to eat from the tree of good and evil constituted Torah which Adam violated. Man broke the ‘Law of Life’ which resulted in a curse and in death, and thus we live in a cursed world (and the prince of this world since the fall is still HaSatan). In GAL 3:13 Paul addresses not only the curse for breaking the Mosaic Covenant, but also the curse for breaking the Edenic Covenant (the effects of which are even visible in the animal kingdom) – Yeshua was cursed with both.

[TBC]

 

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

Before the fall, Adam’s body, soul, and spirit were perfect; his intimacy with God occurred on a spiritual level because God is Spirit (Adam did not merely use his soul, i.e. his mental faculties separated from the spirit – rather his soul was subject to his spirit and thus in union with God). The picture of Adam, Chava and God in the Garden of Eden was a picture of perfect unity or spiritual union, and that union was destroyed through sin. The implication of man being cast out of God’s presence is not some physical separation, seeing that God is everywhere, but a spiritual separation. God had warned Adam that he’d die the day he ate from that tree, and he did die, howbeit not physically but spiritually. His physical death was only the secondary result of God’s penalty (and his death within 1,000 years is a second fulfilment but not the main import).

Sin causes spiritual death, which causes separation from the love of God, and which will cause eternal separation from God unless remedied. Whether we like or not, or whether Judaism accepts it or not: spiritual death is our inheritance (as per mainstream-Judaism we’re in a way all like Adam before the fall: we can decide whether we want to rebel and follow our lusts to eat from the tree or we decide to obey, to overcome our lust and pride, and submit to God’s Torah – which totally ignores the context of Scripture. Though David says, “ I was born in sin”, I wished there were more clearer verses, however, the best symbol is still Israel’s slavery. Those Israelite children were born in slavery, like negro babies born in chains on slave ships. The Israelites were condemned to a life of mud and straw under a merciless master - the perfect picture for serving sin under the rule of the prince of this world (and not to forget, also Egyptians/Gentiles were part of the Exodus).

As we have inherited a dead spirit, we’ve got the same soulish sinful tendencies, desires, and dispositions that Adam had (the fallen nature) and are born under condemnation. No matter what we do, we cannot revive that dead spirit and get rid of our corrupted nature ourselves. Israel couldn’t keep Mosaic Law because of that very reason. God demands perfection, and if we are held captive by our fallen nature, we are unable to render perfect continual obedience to every single precept in the Torah: For he who keeps the whole Torah and offends in one thing, is found guilty of the whole Torah (Yaakov 2:10). As Israel is part of fallen humanity and thus unable to keep Torah, she was cursed: Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them (GAL 3:10, KJV). But if Paul was mainly writing to Gentile Nazarenes, why did he address Mosaic Law at all? Because all those Gentiles had become subject to Mosaic Law through spiritual rebirth (and Rome’s big lie which has permeated all of mainstream ‘Christianity’ is of course that ‘Christians’ are ‘free from the law’ – which is nonsense). Once a Gentile is born again, he is regarded by God as part of Israel (not ethnically of course) and thus has to submit to Israel’s code of law, Torah:

For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but of God (ROM 2:28-29, KJV – not as deceptive as the HRV here).

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

In order to become part of ‘the Israel of God’ one needs to undergo the circumcision of the heart, i.e. the circumcision that is made without hands = water baptism. Paul is saying that the inward circumcision is the one which really counts (which doesn’t replace physical circumcision for Jews, but their physical circumcision doesn’t save them).

BUT - and this is one of the most important points, which you have also willingly misunderstood: Although born again Gentiles and Jews are bound to keep Mosaic Law, they are not under the condemnation of the Mosaic Law! In GAL 3 and 5, the phrase “UNDER THE LAW” means to be UNDER THE CONDEMNATION OF THE WRITTEN LAW = UNDER THE CURSE OF THE WRITTEN LAW = UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH (whereas in GAL 4 the same phrase means to be under a carnal legalistic perversion of the Torah, i.e. the Oral Law or “Tradition of the Elders”).

In order to cover up that “being under the law”, i.e. “being under a curse” refers to the written Torah, the HRV translates the same phrase as “T’cheit Namosa” in GAL 4 and as “The Torah is guarding us” in GAL 3:23. In other words, you have transformed the true meaning of “The Torah is cursing us” into “The Torah is guarding us” – truly diabolic, James.

Only deceived Christians think they don’t need to keep Torah, because the Pope says “You are not under the law!” As shown above it means “not to be under the curse of the law”.

Born again Jews & Gentiles are neither under the Adamic nor under the Mosaic curse, because they have received the punishment for their sins: DEATH. In reality of course, Yeshua received the punishment for their sins, but as they were baptised into His death they died with Him (they were crucified with Him as Paul says somewhere else).

A dead person cannot be sentenced to death again – he has died already (through water baptism).

THEREFORE, if a born again Nazarene violates Torah and is repentant, then the blood of Yeshua cleanses him from his sin (which, of course, doesn’t give him license to sin left, right and centre – and if he does, he may lose his salvation).

I probably sin every day: an unclean thought (adultery), anger against someone (murder), selfishness, etc. – all these things violate Torah, but as long as I want to overcome and do the right thing, Yeshua’s blood cleanses me every second = I am UNDER GRACE; I am not UNDER [THE CURSE OF] THE LAW for the slightest transgression (‘Grace’ in the Tanakh has nothing to do with being delivered from the Adamic or Mosaic curse, but merely denotes God’s benevolence).

Unlike those who are not born again: they are under the Adamic curse, plus if Jewish also under the Mosaic curse. It’s great if you keep Shabbat, the food laws, the festivals, etc., but unless you are better than me, James, - there are sins which you commit daily, and they are piling up till you receive the full wrath of God on judgment day and are cast into hell (the lake of fire).

Keeping Shabbat, wearing tzitziot, etc., will not save you from eternal damnation, and this brings us to the next willingly misunderstood term: WORKS OF THE LAW.

[TBC]

Comment by Jake Wilson on Wednesday

I have read the Miqsat Ma'ase ha-Torah (4QMMT), and only a carnal soul could get the idea that this is what Paul was talking about; it has nothing to do with the Halakhic letter (and you know that, I guess). Although in GAL 2 “works of the law” refers to following the Pharisaic interpretations and legalistic perversions of the Torah as found in the Oral Law, the same phrase in GAL 3 refers to following the uncorrupted Written Torah (again, in order to whitewash the connection between “works of the law” and the Written Torah, the HRV cunningly drops “Ma’aseh HaTorah” in GAL 3:10).

When Paul wrote that no one can be saved through the “works of the law” (by putting the Written Torah into practice), he meant that no one can be saved through the “works of the law” (by putting the Written Torah into practice :-). Torah cannot justify us because a) as a fallen creature we aren’t able to perfectly obey Torah and thus remain under its curse, and b) Torah was never meant to save us in the first place. The Torah was not given by God to save anyone, but as a rule of life. Both the Written Torah and the “works of the law” (GAL 3) are good but they can’t save. A fork doesn’t become bad because you can’t eat soup with it – it’s just the wrong tool.

Below are my comments inserted into your last message in bold:

  1. Spiritual immersion - This immersion was distinct from water immersion (Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Acts 11:16; 19:2-4). The Scriptures tell us that we were all immersed (baptized) into the one Body of Messiah, by one Spirit (1Cor. 12:13).

The Scriptures tell us that the Corinthians were all immersed into one Body of the Messiah and nothing else. It would be a good idea to follow their example though and receive the Spirit, which is why they spoke in tongues. Whether it’s just your wishful thinking or a way of deceiving yourself and others, – projecting the verse immediately onto yourself makes you just as little immersed into Messiah as the Pope.

This (not water baptism) is the immersion which saves us (1Pt. 3:21) …

A good example of “making the commandments of God without effect” (MK 7:13). In typical rabbinic fashion you postulate something without even giving 2-3 verses to support it. No explanation, nothing. Below you give dozens of other verses, but nothing to back up the claim that water baptism has no part in salvation.

I suppose in your opinion neither have the following verses anything to do with water baptism:

“If a man is not born of water and spirit he is not able to enter the kingdom of Eloah.” (JN 3:5)

“Whoever believes and is immersed will live…” (MK 16:16)

After Paul had received the Holy Spirit, Chananyah said to him:

And now, why are you delayed? Stand; be immersed, and be cleansed from your sins while you call His Name (ACTS 22:16) = nothing to do with water baptism, right? There’s no need to be cleansed from sin, right? You’ll go to ‘heaven’ without your sins washed away, yes?

Repent and be immersed every one you in the Name of Yeshua the Messiah for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of Ruach HaKodesh. (ACTS 2:38) = First, be immersed in the Spirit, and afterwards be immersed in the Spirit – is that what it means, Rabbi? So it doesn’t have anything to do with water baptism, no?

All you graciously do in support of your rabbinic takkanah is listing one single verse: 1 PET 3:21. Though water is also a symbol of the Holy Spirit, on which grounds do you claim that 1 Peter 3:21 has nothing to do with water baptism or that water baptism is not needed for salvation (cf. Heb 10:22)?

[TBC]

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