Nazarene Space

i recently ran into a messianic rabbi who teaches against the blue tzit tzit practice as she believes the snail to be an 'abomination'. my studies tell me that snails are only unclean to eat, that the blue dye was extracted while the snail was alive so i cannot find where this is any kind of abomination. this rabbi has been teaching against this for 2 years. i believe this is in violation of torah, which makes her torahless....?
how would you effectively argue this?
http://www.tekhelet.com/timeline.htm

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so wait a minute.. are you against people making tzitzit for themselves in our time because that snail is extinct or do you disagree with that rabbi teaching people in the former manner??

btw tzitzit is only commanded for clothes with angles and most modern clothes don't have this so tzitzit is not commanded for people (like me) who wear modern clothing....
i believe we should wear it and use blue as torah says. the other rabbi says we should not use blue as "snails are an abomination according to torah". even though we are not eating them, she says an unclean animal should not be used to make a garment and that you cannot bless it and make it become clean. then she starts talking about mixing fibers....

Serkan said:
so wait a minute.. are you against people making tzitzit for themselves in our time because that snail is extinct or do you disagree with that rabbi teaching people in the former manner??

btw tzitzit is only commanded for clothes with angles and most modern clothes don't have this so tzitzit is not commanded for people (like me) who wear modern clothing....
When Yohanan the immerser wore camel fur (if that's really what the translation should be) was it an abomination?
And yes the earth has "four corners" and it is a continuous circle. The zitzit are for all generations and all Israelites should be wearing them, (reprimanding myself as well as many times I have not worn them). Certainly it would be better to attach them to any item of clothing on our modern "get ups" so that we "see" them. This is a good starting point. I have attached them to my shirts and belt loops, which again the earth is round and has "four corners". I believe this term should be used interchangable with ALL DIRECTIONS and not so much considered four 90 degree angles.
allthough you are correct that it would be wise to buy something with corners im Turkish..

it's more difficult for me because i refuse to give up my country, my language and my culture and replace all that is Turkish within me with a country that is not mine (the Yisrael right now is not Alaha His Yisrael i believe), forgetting my own langauge and adopt a strange one (allthough Turkish did come from Aramaic) and my culture for a culture that isn't mine (ok i like davidic dance but Halay is the way any Turkish person should dance on weddings)..

alot of you people have no problems with replacing all three of those because you are not as proud as i am of my country, eventhough it is not a Jewish country or a perfect country (which is???) it is mine and i came from there and even want to be buried there and as a Turkish man it's hard for me to suddenly come to my friends and say "hey look at my tzitzit!!!" western people are free and do what they want but we have some rules within our communities..
Shalom,
Regarding hillazon snails and tzit tzit:

Orthodox Jewish women do not wear tzit tzit; many messianic women ahve adoptd the practice of donning them. The wife of a rabbi myself, I do carry with diverse teaching responsibilities which make allowance of wearing them, though not mandatory.

The problem with messiainic tzit tzit are many:

1) Creation of various celebratory varieties of threads which are not at all prescribed within Torah.

2a)Women who wear tzit tzit would be required to be found ceremonially, ritually clean through mikvah after havng been throughroughly the premises of examined by the rebeitzen on the premises of the loca mikvah.

2b)The woman wearing tzit tzit other than one in rbztzn authority would be granting knowledge to the men in the congregation who could through careful notation and observance discover their monthhy cycle. Such infomation is not to be made common knowledge; it is to remain sacred, holy, protected.

3) The issue of the snail? Well, the uttermost of sin is represent by a color of manificent beauty found in a creature nestled in the far reaches of dark deep. ( a constant reminder that we are within easy acess of either good or evil. The plainess of a quiet life should not be confused with the blue thread which sticks out pridefully past the plain threads.

Always, G-d has a purpose for His actions.

Baruch HaShem~

Sincerely, C.J.C./rbtzn
Shalom,

The information I shared is what is from Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox Judaism NOT messianic Non jewish gentiles. It is easy to assume a costume; it is not without sacrifice that covenant is declared.

Education brings light; teaching the boundaries of tzit tzit to oth men and women is a good thing; forgetting the lesson of ceremony,and tradition , many non jewa have stepped into their own comfort zone by creating one.

Rememeber, G-d looks not at the legs of a man, rather the hiddeness of the heart.He is not interested, or impressed with costume; He IS The One Who validates the True Jew in tzit tzit, and does accept the *righteous gentile who is a stranger in the gate without them*

Baruch HaShem~

Sincerely, C.J.C./rbtzn



DUD MaKaBI (David Markus) said:
R.T. I agree .

Rick & Debbie Toole said:
CJC, I respect your view of women wearing tzit tzit , I do dis-agree with your view however. Torah says , C.J.B. by David Stern- Speak to the people of Israel instructing them to make through all their generations tzitziyot on the corners of their garments, and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread . I don't feel they should be tied to belt loops , one can wear a katan, both male and female . Techelet can be bought today in Israel , for the specific blue in question , in order to satisfy that debate . Torah does not say ( the men ) to wear tzit tzit it says the children . There are many levels to understand this mitzvoth, but I see this from the pashat. R.T.

C.J.C. said:
Shalom,
Regarding hillazon snails and tzit tzit:

Orthodox Jewish women do not wear tzit tzit; many messianic women ahve adoptd the practice of donning them. The wife of a rabbi myself, I do carry with diverse teaching responsibilities which make allowance of wearing them, though not mandatory.

The problem with messiainic tzit tzit are many:

1) Creation of various celebratory varieties of threads which are not at all prescribed within Torah.

2a)Women who wear tzit tzit would be required to be found ceremonially, ritually clean through mikvah after havng been throughroughly the premises of examined by the rebeitzen on the premises of the loca mikvah.

2b)The woman wearing tzit tzit other than one in rbztzn authority would be granting knowledge to the men in the congregation who could through careful notation and observance discover their monthhy cycle. Such infomation is not to be made common knowledge; it is to remain sacred, holy, protected.

3) The issue of the snail? Well, the uttermost of sin is represent by a color of manificent beauty found in a creature nestled in the far reaches of dark deep. ( a constant reminder that we are within easy acess of either good or evil. The plainess of a quiet life should not be confused with the blue thread which sticks out pridefully past the plain threads.

Always, G-d has a purpose for His actions.

Baruch HaShem~

Sincerely, C.J.C./rbtzn
And if a being sins by mistake, then he shall bring a female goat a year old as a sin offering, and the priest shall make atonement for the being who strays by mistake before YEWE, to make atonement, and it shall be forgiven him, for him who does by mistake, there is one Torah, both for him that is the native among the children of Yisrael and for the stranger who sojourns in there midst.

But the being who does defiantly, whether he is native or a stranger, he reviles YEWE, and that being shall be cut off from among his people. BECAUSE HE HAS DESPISED THR WORD OF YEWE, and has broken his command, that being shall be cut off, his crookedness is upon his head.

These passages contrast between transgressions of mistakes and defiant actions, YEWE capsulates these actions with the grace of tzitzot to be worn to remind us of transgressions of Torah. Not to search out our own heart, and not allowing our eyes to go whoring. One Torah, one ruling, one people.

For the command is a lamp, and the Torah a light, and reproofs of discipline a way of life.

My son heed to the instruction of your father, and do not forsake the Torah of your mother!

We are commanded to teach our children when they wake up, when they walk by the way, when they sit in the home, and when they lie down to sleep.

All beings should remember the commandments, over twenty five percent of Torah commands pertain to women, they too should wear the tzitzit.

Where in Torah does it say tzitzit should be white? The only color i see mentioned is blue?

Shalom
Actually it states a chain or cord of blue; as further indicated in Deuteronomy 22:12.

Which Scripture says women are not obligated?

Which passage says ONE TORAH FOR ALL, i mean Yahudah, oops ALL?

Which passage says to wear white?

i am all for correction?

i am not indicating any tribe is incorrect just following the complete thought in the passage of tzitzit, the grace of YEWE to remember the commands he lays out for all beings that keep or violate the commands? i was wondering if you were going to provide Scripture with your commentary?

Shalom
The Ancient Aramaic Talmud or Modern Aramaic Talmud? Oral Tradition or Oral Scripture?

i agree the Torah is for both the native as well as the ger who sojourns among them!

for the record i am neither karaite nor protestant, however i am a son of the Most High Authority, YEWE.

i do agree with the right ruling of the proper authority to bring right ruling.

One; YeweShua only came for the lost sheep of Yisrael; Northern Tribes scattered to the four corners of the earth.

Two, He did not reveal Himself to Yahudah as the Anointed One, as Yosef waited for the appointed time to reveal himself to his brothers who could not recognize him.

Three; And also the sons of foreigners who joins themselves to YEWE, to serve Him, and love the Name of YEWE, to be His servant, ALL who guard the Shabbat, and not profane it, and hold fast to My covenant, THEM I shall bring to My Set-Apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer, THEIR burnt offerings and slaughterings are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.

And now i appeal to you, brothers, by the Name of our Master YeweShua, the Anointed One, that you all agree, and that there is no division among you, but that you be woven together in the same mind and the same opinion!

Shalom
Thank you for you eloquence in calling me ignorant, since you placed yourself in the seat of the Torah as instructor/morah/teacher.

Can Scripture be broken as the Talmud is quite often by fundamental differences?

How often has the Ruach haQodesh rendered Talmud? Especially to those who are reNewed, reborn, as the Anointed One teaches?

The Talmud is full of wisdom, insight, it also taeches against YeweShua passages?

If anyone comes to you not bringing this teaching, do not recieve him into your house, nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his wicked works.

Does the Talmud bring this teaching of walking in his commands and YeweShua in the flesh. This one is he who is leading astray and the anti-Mashiyach.

Shalom
Aharon that is some cool info in regards to the 1/3 for 1/3 neutral and 1/3 against. I agree that we cannot say that we follow Yeshua's oral Torah when none of us inherited any oral Torah and the NT is just a tiny tiny tiny sliver of Yeshua's thoughts on oral Torah. In order to make the claim we follow Yeshua's oral Torah we would have to be followers of the rabbinic oral Torah, since its the only oral Torah that exists. And like you said as best we can tell Hillels oral Torah lines up 90% with what Yeshua said.

Aharon S. .אהרון ס said:
I wasn't calling you ignorant, I don't think you are.

The Zohar gives the process of being "born again" in the same form that Yeshua` gives, and it expands on it as well giving us deeper insight. Rambam and various Rabim talk about attaining Ruahh HaQodhesh ("Ruach HaKodesh") usually through hithbodeduth (secluded personal prayer).

Some Rabim of the Talmud believed in Yeshua`, approximately 1/3, 1/3 were non hostile, and 1/3 were hostile. We know this by what the Talmud says when it gives this story:
Three Rabbis are talking, one Rabbi said of the [Nazarenes], 'I would neither study with them nor worship with them.' The second Rabbi said, 'I would certainly study with them, but I would not worship with them.' And the third Rabbi said, 'I would both study and worship from them, for I am one of them.'

As far as halakha goes, the halakha of Hillel is followed and the halakha of Shammai is banned. Yeshua`, from what we read of him, agreed with Hillel on most things besides, for one example, the stringency of divorce. Hillel halakha is probably something like 85-95% the same as Yeshua`'s, of course, since we only have a very small amount of Yeshua`'s halakha, its hard to say for sure.

How can we even follow Yeshua` 100% without his halakha? Does it help that the huge majority of those who call themselves his followers don't even agree on base issues between themselves, but every man seems to have his own hugely different opinion from the other? The stability, the base, IMHO, is found in the halakha accepted and taught in the Talmud.

sevynn leverette said:
Thank you for you eloquence in calling me ignorant, since you placed yourself in the seat of the Torah as instructor/morah/teacher.

Can Scripture be broken as the Talmud is quite often by fundamental differences?

How often has the Ruach haQodesh rendered Talmud? Especially to those who are reNewed, reborn, as the Anointed One teaches?

The Talmud is full of wisdom, insight, it also taeches against YeweShua passages?

If anyone comes to you not bringing this teaching, do not recieve him into your house, nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his wicked works.

Does the Talmud bring this teaching of walking in his commands and YeweShua in the flesh. This one is he who is leading astray and the anti-Mashiyach.

Shalom

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