Nazarene Space

Who do you are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11?

Are they:

Enoch & Elijah?

Moses & Elijah?

The House of Israel and the House of Judah?

Are they literal?  Are they figurative?  What do you think?

Views: 1666

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Wow to some of the comments. The Bible prophecies is a puzzle with the clues you have to search for. The Bible said that YAHWEH wrote the Testimonies with HIS FINGER, did HE or did HE not? Two witnesses is the Bible that the 144,000 will preach. Here is the clue they will be burned by the beast. The Ark of the Covenant has been hidden and it will stand up to the who world as what it is the Two Witness written by ELOHIM to go to Heaven beside the Original One made by ELOHIM.

Blessings! 

If it were an Angel how could they die? Enoch was taken up to God and did not see death as far as I can remember from scripture also the same applies to Elijah does it not? Outside of that it can be any person that God has raised up in power and preparation. I would expect a literal two witnesses as Elohim used a literal fulfilling of many prophecies with real people especially Yahshua. 

Mikha'ELa said:

wonder who the warrior would be...His messenger is an angel and may be the warrior could be an angel..Michael?  just thinking...like your answer Shamira. 

Literal. Enoch and Elijah. As has been pointed out, Enoch and Elijah have not died; yet scripture tells us that it is appointed to man once to die. So, unless Elohim raises up two others, and Enoch and Elijah die physically some other way, it seems to be Enoch and Elijah.
Mikha El
Aug 9, 2014
Please advise: How is saying Enoch did not die adding to scripture when Hebrews 11:5 clearly states that Enoch was "taken to heaven so he would not die" (NCV)? Sorry for this reply if you've already answered it. I'm going through everything in order and commenting as I go.

It is Appointed for man once to die and then face judgement. You come to earth live your life and then after that life you face judgement. Whilst this is true it does not exclude the following issues. Those at the time of Yahshua's return who are alive - they will not die, His elect will be transformed and saved and will attend the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the millennium - their status of being righteous and saved is already sealed = They do not die and are yet judged. 

If Enoch was taken to heaven then we can assume He has faced judgement. This does not exclude the possibility of YHWH sending him back to earth for another assignment. Enoch can return and live but would not have to face judgement again!

We must acknowledge that 1) YHWH does not lie and 2) His ways are not our ways. After you live once you are judged if YHWH wants to use you for something else He can.

We know that Yahshua was pre-existent to His coming to Earth, how do we know if YHWH has other Sentient beings who were formed in the heavens and then sent to Earth? Quite simply - We don't.

How do we know or not know if YHWH has made other creations with other roles before the advent of ours? Other Heavens and Earths or something far different made for His purpose and pleasure are possible. The Bible is YHWH's revelation for this Earth, for this people and the Angels assigned to this creation He will stick to His Word for sure but let us remember He is the master of Riddles, Righteousness and Love. We must consider His handiwork with all humbleness and "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, lean not on our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will make our paths straight.

So even with that scripture we can see that YHWH is more than able to send them to earth for the role of two witnesses. We could also see that there is a possibility of Elohim using Moses as a witness if we hold fast the rendering of the verse that I suggest.

I believe they are two representatives of the House of Judah one the one hand and of the House of Israel on the other, but they may be as the 12.000 for every tribe untouched by woman - a reason to fight with the abomination of desolation and stay clean and also for clean animals for sacrifices at the sanctuary, or they may be left behind to be witnesses and they do this fight knowing who they are and for what they are set-apart - in this case they may be from those who keep the commandments of Elohim and have the testimony of Yeshua - how we see in this book that messianic believers will remain until the end as testimony.

If they are the 12,000 (144000) does that mean we shall see them all die and lay in the streets for 3 day and then resurrect? Do we seek first the Peshat of the word the literal simple meaning rather than jump to a spiritualisation of the text? The four levels of dividing scripture Peshat, Remez, Derash and Sod should all be considered in the rendering of the text. Do we see the 144000 calling down fire or with holding the rain when Revelations talks about them or are they treated as a separate subject. Do we blend the two together if scripture does not? All tough questions. The one thing that is clear is that once they arrive we will then know.

Florin C Bodin said:

I believe they are two representatives of the House of Judah one the one hand and of the House of Israel on the other, but they may be as the 12.000 for every tribe untouched by woman - a reason to fight with the abomination of desolation and stay clean and also for clean animals for sacrifices at the sanctuary, or they may be left behind to be witnesses and they do this fight knowing who they are and for what they are set-apart - in this case they may be from those who keep the commandments of Elohim and have the testimony of Yeshua - how we see in this book that messianic believers will remain until the end as testimony.

Hey everyone. New here to Nazarene Space. Excited YHWH has brought me to this place because I've been looking for something more and found what I was looking for here.

This is an important discussion. I have deliberately avoided this exact discussion for many years because I felt as if YHWH was deliberately hiding revelation in plain sight so that it would not be made clear until His people needed to see it. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do wish to lay out everything I know so that this discussion gains focus on facts and Scripture because I believe the time is drawing very close.

On that note, Jacqueline I must disagree with one thing: it is not clear that once they arrive we will know. Surely once they are in their 1260 days of prophesying we will know because they will say where the rain will stop and it will stop and anyone (or 'thing' such as Rephaim and that ilk) that tries to kill them will be consumed by the fire from their mouths. However, the prophecy in Malachi 4 of the last days Elijah is open ended enough to suggest there could be significant ministry work done by these two witnesses, or possibly more specifically the one who comes in the spirit and power of Eliyahu, before those 1260 days commence. Many will reject what they do before the 1260 days, and many will reject them during those 1260 days. So it may be obvious to followers of Yeshua who keep Torah, but to many others it probably will not be obvious at first. Forgive me for singling you out to make that point because I appreciate that you are approaching this subject with honest questions rather than contrived answers. That's the key here. Let's get ahold of more information and facts and then follow the evidence.


As much as possible we should include all relevant scriptures in the discussion. Here are important passages to consider for the discussion.

1. Revelation 8-11 (obviously!, however we need to keep in that the prophecy of the two witnesses is given as part of the blowing of the sixth trumpet. Just as Rev 9:12 speaks of the first woe at the end of the fifth trumpet, Rev 11:14 speaks of the second woe at the end of the sixth trumpet AFTER the prophecy of the two witnesses. So they are included in the sixth trumpet)

2. Zecharyah 4 (Rev 11:4 says these two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two menorahs that stand before the Lord of the earth, and Zecharyah 4 says the two olive trees are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth)

3. Malachi 4 (prophecy of Eliyahu coming before the great and awesome day of YHWH)

4. Luke 1, Mark 9, Matthew 11, Matthew 17 (All of these passages must be considered together and in light of Malachi 4 as they explain Yochanan the Immerser and how he was the Eliyahu who was to come, yet even then Eliyahu  will still come as well. Also the reference for Moshe and Eliyahu being put together at the mount of transfiguration)

5. Numbers 13 (notice that the two faithful 'spies' were Yehoshua, from the tribe of Ephrayim, and Calev, from the tribe of Yehuda. So while the other ten leaders of the assembly went off into 'apostasy' by rebelling against El Elyon, the two faithful witnesses said that we should obey Him and go up and defeat even the Rephaim of the land because surely YHWH has given them over to us. Anyone notice that the two witnesses in the sixth trumpet in Revelation are spoken of just after the locusts coming out of the abyss in the fifth trumpet?)

6. Ezekiel 37 (just as Ephrayim and Yehudah are the two 'sticks' that are brought together, the two witnesses are also called the two branches in Zecharyah 4)

7. Matthew 20, 26 (when asked to allow two of His disciples to sit as his right and left in the kingdom, Yeshua's first question is "are you able to drink the cup I will drink?", and the cup He would drink is His death on the tree. How does this pertain to the two witnesses?)

8. Matthew 5 (those who keep even the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same will be called great in the kingdom)

9. Ecclesiastes 1 (there is nothing new under the sun)


With all of those passages in mind we need to make a few key points to clear up some confusion, then I will try to provide a high level view of what the two witnesses and their ministry will probably look like.

1. First question: since there is nothing new under the sun, are there any biblical examples of men being 'taken' to the heavens and then returning to the earth so they can meet their death since 'all men must die once'? Answer: no. There are only two men who were ever 'taken' and they have never returned. However, have there been men who operated in great spirit and power such that their spirit was referenced by name for the anointing of men in subsequent generations? Answer: ABSOLUTELY! Elisha and Yochanon the Immerser both received the spirit and power of Eliyahu, but they were NOT ELIYAHU RETURNED TO THE EARTH. Even Yochanon denied he was Eliyahu in Yochanon 1:21. The clear example of scripture is that men are called to do the work of YHWH in THEIR generation. Honestly, I think our belief that we need the great men of scripture to come back to the earth to do the work necessary in OUR generation is a subtle sign of our lack of responsibility with the work that has been APPOINTED to our generation (I'm including myself here, YHWH rebuked me for slackness recently). You were born for such a time as this. Eliyahu, Moshe, and Hanoch have done the work appointed them, so we shouldn't depend on them to come back and do the work YHWH has called us to do in this wicked generation. In fact to put the final nails in the coffin of this strange teaching that those men will return, remember how on the Mount of Transfiguration Moshe and Eliyahu were BOTH shown glorified. Moshe died, and Eliyahu was taken, but BOTH are shown to be glorified in that experience with Yeshua. If Eliyahu was supposed to return in the unglorified flesh so that he could meet his 'appointed' death, then how could he be glorified EXACTLY as Moshe was? He wouldn't be glorified, so no he won't return. And lastly, the testimony of scripture, as someone else mentioned in this discussion, is that there will be those who do not meet death and are alive when Yeshua returns (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Whoever the Eliyahu of the last days is, he will be a man born in that generation who will go forth in the spirit and power of Eliyahu. The same will be true of the other witness whether he comes in the spirit and power of Moshe or Hanoch (not sure which at the moment, if either).

2. Second question: what will they teach? With the restoration of YHWH's Torah in these last days, it is clear they will teach a return to Torah in Mashiach so that our halacha will be Yeshua's halacha (1 Yochanon 2:6). There is no maybe about this, because that is the only way the teachings of these men will line up with the rest of scripture as well as the prophecies of restoration. But more than that, their keeping and teaching of Torah will be the reason for their great spiritual power poured out upon them by the Ruach HaKodesh. Yeshua himself said in Mattityahu 5 that whoever keeps even the least of the commandments in Torah and teaches others to do the same will be great in the kingdom of heaven, meaning their spiritual authority and ministry of miracles and prophecy will be great just as Revelation 11 and Zecharyah 4 testify to. I'll discuss more about their miracles and spiritual authority in the last summary. I'm sure there are more dimensions to their teaching than that, but that will clearly be a central theme of their entire ministry. Especially in light of Eliyahu's ministry of reconciliation in Malachi 4, only true Torah keeping believers in Yeshua would be able to be reconciled with Yehudah and actually be considered reconciliation. When Jews become Christians and then say they are no longer Jews, that is not life, that is not reconciliation, and that is not the ministry of Eliyahu who taught the people to make up their mind and quit trying to serve both YHWH and Ba'al. So when this reconciliation comes between the fathers and the sons (who the fathers and sons are is another good discussion), the coming together of the fathers and sons will be fostered by their mutual keeping of Torah while the rest of the world chases HaSatan and the rest of 'believers' will chase the doctrines of demons.

3. Third question: who will they be? Yeshua knew about the ministry of the two witnesses. More on that in question #4, but the point in this question is that Yeshua and His talmidim were able to learn about the two witnesses from the testimony of the Tanakh before the book of Revelation was given. The clear examples of scripture show two witnesses coming from the houses of Yehudah and Ephrayim as shown in Numbers 13, Ezekiel 37, and other places. This certainly explains why so many want to compare this to the two houses or the two house movement, but these are two MEN, NOT two groups of people because they physically die and are resurrected (again, more on that in question #4). Just as Yehoshua and Calev were two men who represented those two tribes, and those two tribes represented the whole assembly so often in Scripture, the two witnesses will be from those two tribes in the midst of the entire camp even as all twelve tribes are also represented in the 144,000 so that there are those from the rest of the camp of Israel as well. I will throw a small curve ball in here that I'm not sure of but could merit much discussion. Just as Yoseph was hidden among the Gentiles, and the lost ten tribes led by Ephrayim (Yoseph's son) is now hidden among the Gentiles, and (not sure on this one) the possibility that Eliyahu himself MIGHT have been a Gentile, could it be that the last days Eliyahu, one of the two witnesses, may actually be a Gentile or from a Gentile nation who is grafted is as a Nazarene Israelite ;)? If so, could he still represent Ephrayim? I certainly don't agree with strict, blood-line, two house theology that all 'Gentile' believers are actually from the lost 10 tribes, but that also does not eliminate the prophetic truth of Gentiles being grafted into the tribes of Israel through faith in Yeshua. So while the blood-line two house argument is unprovable and ignores a lot of data around the world from different people groups (i.e. Bnei Manasheh), the simple truth is that all believers must be considered to be a part of one of the tribes in order to participate in the New Covenant that is made with the house of Israel (Jer 31, Eph 2). Therefore, a Gentile believer who truly lives the New Covenant with the Torah written on their hearts could become a representative of one of the twelve tribes. Another possible case in point, I have some friends who like to emphasize there is a lot of evidence to suggest Calev was from a Gentile group, was grafted into Yehudah, and then was called upon to represent Yehudah in Numbers 13. So the overall testimony of scripture seems to suggest that either or both of these men could be native blood Israelites or grafted in Gentiles. However, to really make the testimony true of YHWH bringing the two sticks together in Ezekiel 37, I personally believe that somehow these two men will represent all of the pairs: Jew and Gentile, Yehudah and Ephrayim, and as Kalev Ben Dawid said in an earlier comment Eliyahu and Moshe. So when it comes to the question of this whole discussion about who will they be, ANSWER: I DON'T KNOW!! They could come from anywhere! Somehow, as we study and understand what to look for, then we should trust that YHWH well give us enough to know them when we see them even when most around us will have no clue. We should at least be able to know them by their fruit as Yeshua said. Remember in Yeshua's time in the womb, birth, circumcision, and early years there were people who knew who He was, but for many it was not obvious till much much later.

4. Fourth question: what is their reward? "What kind of question is this?" you may ask. If you want to understand the two witnesses better, this is very important. There's a lot to consider here, so if this seems clumsy just keep reading, we'll get there. When Yeshua was asked to allow the sons of Zebedee to sit at His right and left in His kingdom, what was His immediate response? This is important, don't skip straight to the general principles of servanthood He talks about next. What is Yeshua's immediate response? "You do not know what you are asking, can you drink the cup I am torink?" (paraphrase) What was the cup Yeshua was to drink? In Matthew 26 while Yeshua is praying in the garden, ironically with the two sons of Zebedee and Kefa, the cup He is speaking of is His torture, persecution, and ultimate death on the tree. Back in Matthew 20, now we can understand why He challenged them with this because He is asking if they can suffer that same fate. He then tells them that basically they will drink that cup, but it is not for Yeshua to give those two positions away because the Father himself has prepared them. So let's put this together: Yeshua was persecuted, tortured, killed, and three days later resurrected (all referred to as His 'cup'), and those who will sit at His right and left will also drink that same cup by being persecuted, tortured, killed, and then resurrected several days later. The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are shown to drink that same cup and are also said to stand before the Lord of the whole earth, in other words on His right and on His left. Zecharyah 4 shows the exact same thing with one on the right and one on the left. So let me say it plainly, the two witnesses are the two men who will sit at the right and left of Yeshua in His kingdom. That is their reward. Do they deserve that reward? Yes, and let me show you why. One comes in the spirit and power of Eliyahu but is greater than Eliyahu: the first Eliyahu called fire from heaven, the last Eliyahu will bring fire from his own mouth; the first Eliyahu stopped the rain in Israel, the last Eliyahu will stop the rain anywhere in the world He pleases; the first Eliyahu did not die, the last Eliyahu will die but be resurrected AHEAD of the first resurrection just as Yeshua was resurrected before the first resurrection of all believers (also notice the earthquake at their resurrection just like the earthquake at Yeshua's resurrection Matt 28:2); the first Eliyahu 'tormented' Jezebel and the prophets of Ba'al by fighting against them, the last Eliyahu will 'torment' all living on the earth by fighting against them. Certainly several of those things are true of both of the two witnesses, not just the one who carries the spirit and power of Eliyahu. The point is this, these two prophets are not just any prophets, they will be the greatest two prophets in the history of the earth besides Yeshua himself. Just as Yoseph, Dawid, Yehoshua, Moshe and others were prophetic shadow pictures of Yeshua, the first Eliyahu, Hanoch, Moshe, Calev, and others are prophetic shadow pictures OF THE TWO WITNESSES. Yeshua himself even said there will be those who through the Ruach are able to do even greater works than He did at His first coming. These two witnesses will do greater miracles than any have done up to that point only to then be outdone by Yeshua when He splits the heavens. And that's important because that is exactly what the seventh trumpet right after the two witnesses shows us: when the veil was torn at Yeshua's death, that was a fulfillment of prophecy AND a prophetic shadow of things to come. It was a picture of Yeshua splitting the heavens when He returns and removing the veil between the heavens and the earth. That's why Yochanon sees the ark in the heavens after the seventh trumpet because at that point the veil will be removed so that everyone can see straight into the heavenly Kadosh Kadoshim and see the ark of His covenant there. The reward of the two witnesses to sit at Yeshua's right and left closely mirrors Yeshua's own reward of being given all authority in heaven and earth in Matthew 28 because their path and ministry will be much like His. This information about their reward, as an aside, is one I've been sitting on since 2008 and have told very few until now.

So now for a general summary of what I think the ministry of the two witnesses will probably look like. All of the info thus far is to serve as context so this summary is easy to follow. Even though they are best known as a pair, there are more prophecies pertaining to Eliyahu, just as there is more attention given to Yehoshua over Calev, Yehudah over Ephrayim, etc. So very likely there will be a period of time before the 1260 days where only one of the two, specifically the one operating in the spirit and power of Eliyahu, is ministering publicly in the world. He may be a leader of some kind just as Eliyahu was a leader of many prophets, but he will be an excellent servant leader of the people of YHWH because he will represent Yeshua's rebuke of the sons of Zebedee in Matthew 20 that he who wishes to lead must become the servant of all. He probably will be a leader of some kind at some point before the 1260 days because only a prominant leader is in a position to do things that will ultimately serve the entire assembly across the world. That doesn't mean look for a prominent leader, it means look for the guy who is working the hardest to help and serve everyone across the globe. The only other thing that will be noticeable in these early 'public' stages will be that the nature of his ministry will fulfill Malachi 4 as stated before. Besides that, there may be no other obvious, prophesied signs to show us Eliyahu in the last days unless perhaps he does actually show up at Pesach ;). So perhaps what we should be ready to watch for is not just the two witnesses but also the overall context of world changes, last days prophesies, and signs of the Mashiach's coming. Clearly since these men prophesy in the last days, then at some point we should EXPECT that they are somehow ministering publicly somehow, somwhere in the midst of many of the last days prophesies coming true. I think we are entering into that even now. I do not know to what extent the things they will do DURING the 1260 days will also occur BEFORE the 1260 days, but it is possible that there will be rare signs 'before their time has come' just as Yeshua did the miracle at the wedding 'before His time had come'. Perhaps if you are a personal witness of these early miracles they may even ask you to stay silent just as Yeshua did at first, again probably because 'the time had not yet come'. Once the 1260 days starts, the rumble is on. When it says they will kill with fire from their mouths all who seek to kill them, this will include everyone from Muslim jihadists and other suicide fighters, snipers, and probably even the giants (Rephaim) and 'locusts' of the fifth trumpet in Revelation. Everyone with the mark will get supernatural protection from these locusts, but the two witnesses will probably obliterate them just as David slew Goliath and the people of Israel defeated Og king of Bashan. The same extreme love and extreme hate shown to Yeshua will be how people react to these men. The rain stopping in various places will be very just and specific. The rain will literally rain for believers in hiding places YHWH has taken them to, but not on adjacent areas controlled by the wicked (Psalm 91 should come to mind). The prophet Elisha troubled the king of Syria because he heard the words that king spoke in his bedroom and told the king of Israel. In other words, he tormented him. That is what these two witnesses will do. The kings of the world will be attempting to execute many plots, ultimately trying to bring the world under one rule, which will not happen until Mashiach does it. So these two witnesses will be used by YHWH to frustrate the plans of many kings and 'torment' them as it says in Revelation 11 such that those kings are delighted when these men are finally dead. Perhaps they will be able to accomplish this through spiritual dreams and visions. Perhaps they will be translated many places like Philip was in the book of Acts. This is a high level overview, but I imagine that there will be a full 1260 days of these kind of events and that each one could be an amazing story on par with stories in the scripture. Ultimately their death will look much like Yeshua's. They will know the time, they will not resist, there may or may not be a false court case, they may be tortured, but in the end they will die a similar agonizing death just as Yeshua did, and even in Jerusalem where their master died as it says in Revelation 11. Then they will be the first men AFTER Yeshua to be resurrected into their glorified bodies. Since their resurrection is definitely before the Day of YHWH, they will very likely be with Yeshua in the clouds when He splits the heavens and comes to tread the wine press of judgment.

To come back around to your comments again Jacqueline, with all the information I laid out, I mostly stayed within Peshat and Remez and may have touched a little on Drash with the two witnesses linked to Yehudah and Ephrayim. My personal opinion is that each level must be thoroughly explored before going up to the next level, and then as you get to each new level if what you find does not magnify and emphasize the simpler things already learned, then we messed up somewhere either in the previous levels or with what we think we are finding in the advanced levels. I didn't touch Sod, I don't feel qualified to do much Sod interpretation, and I don't think Sod interpretation should even be used in general discussion unless the other levels have been well discussed first where people have started to agree on some common facts and themes from Pashat to Drash. Plus I find that Sod is nigh on impossible without the original language, whereas there are various ways, praise YHWH, that Peshat, Remez, and amazingly even Drash are able to survive even moderately well done translations into other languages so long as it as least was intended as a literal translation. That means those levels are much more accessible to more believers. My open ended Sod question in this case is this: why are they called witnesses rather than prophets, teachers, judges, princes, leaders, etc.? I believe there is something at the Sod level to be found with the title given them as witnesses, so anyone with any thoughts, additional info, or especially Hebrew/Aramaic word study, please share.

Literal. They should be crucified and resurrected in three days like the Lord.

By Muslims? I think yes.

Based in my limited understanding, the two olive trees that stand on either side of YHVH, are also found in Zechariah 4. Also remind me of the two Keruvim that are on either side of YHVH on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. Also in 1Kings 6:23. The Cherubs are anointed in order to stand in His Presence. Speculation: Michael and Gabriel :)

They are 2 groups of people that total 200 million people from Rev 9..Yes the resurrected prophets are a part of this,this is who gathers Israel the second witness..The first witness has been the Jehovas Witnesses who will unite with the resurrected prophets,and Israel.  The first witness is jehovas Witnesses,the second witness is Israel(jew and gentile,anyone who follows Yahshua is a Israelite, guided by the resurected prophets)..Together they will blast the system for 1260 days.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

 

 

 

















 

LINKS

 

 

 

 

Badge

Loading…

© 2019   Created by James Trimm.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service